Nino vs Lilinia

[Tangerine]

I'm fine with you mentioning ranks here, I never said you weren't allowed. I'm just trying to make sure you don't start saying things like "lol GFaqs says this and we're better than you so listen," and what you've been saying is starting to sound dangerously close to that.

I don't think I've even come close to saying that. Why would I be debating with efficiency in mind if I believed GameFAQs rules were the only ones worth abiding by? I mentioned ranks in passing, not as a main point. I just got annoyed when they were being brushed off like they're irrelevant. GameFAQs is proof enough that they aren't, so I used the size of it's community to prove my point. You're misunderstanding my actions.

At the same time, it's true no one should be blowing off ranks either, though he did admit that Nino wins in a ranked run anyway. It's also true that most people on this site don't care about ranks, so don't expect most people to care about the points you make regarding ranks. It's just like when I posted the unranked list on the FE6 board. 85% of the discussion was on why it existed in the first place. Different boards have different ideas. Don't go getting offended because one board doesn't share yours.

Admitting she wins there and then downplaying the win is not actually admittance. I'm not offended by anything, I'm annoyed by the same things I was annoyed by when you made that topic. Although I was less annoyed then because I already knew what they would do, as I made quite clear to you prior to the creation of it.

[Rewjeo]

Just curious, who did you vote for, RFof? Tangerines keeps mentioning that you and she have proven something while you haven't really said much specifically on who's better.

[Narga_Rocks]

It's a public poll (you can click to see who picked whom) and RFoF voted Lilina.

I think it's posts like this:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=18397&view=findpost&p=795345

and this:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=18397&view=findpost&p=795425

That might make someone think RF is going for Nina.

But posts like this:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=18397&view=findpost&p=792789

and

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=18397&view=findpost&p=785200

might make you think the other way.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Tangerine]

It looked to me like she changed her mind mid topic, not really a crime or anything. She helped me prove my points.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Tangerines

[Narga_Rocks]

It looked to me like she changed her mind mid topic, not really a crime or anything. She helped me prove my points.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with doing that. It does appear as if she is siding with Nino now, considering the more recent posts are in Nino's favour.

The other possibility is she's just making sure no flawed points are brought up for either side.

[Florete]

The other possibility is she's just making sure no flawed points are brought up for either side.

That was mostly my intention. At this point I'm not really sure who to side with.

[Junkhead]

*sigh*

Even though I voted for Nino, I hate arguing over something we have solved in the first page...Lilina is a better choice, only because she joins earlier and will have a possible A support build with Roy.

Nino is good, but that is a posibily it we are not taking an effeciency run into account, and in debates, "how will they end up" does NOT make a character better, that is only the view for us "Stat Junkies", how ThunderMan would and still does call it.

End of disscusion.

[Tangerine]

Actually, I'm fairly certain that I've proved joining early is not a good thing in this case. It may be good for a unit that can make use of it, but in a "who sucks the longest" competition, joining early means you lose.

[BK-201]

Actually, I'm fairly certain that I've proved joining early is not a good thing in this case. It may be good for a unit that can make use of it, but in a "who sucks the longest" competition, joining early means you lose.

So you are saying Est > Gordin?

[Florete]

Actually, I'm fairly certain that I've proved joining early is not a good thing in this case. It may be good for a unit that can make use of it, but in a "who sucks the longest" competition, joining early means you lose.

I don't like this logic because it feels like you're penalizing availability, which doesn't really make sense. Why should a unit be worse on account of the fact that s/he can be used more?

[Tangerine]

That is completely different. Nino is NOT the equivalent of Est. Nino performs well even at base level, although she obviously can't go soloing everything. Est is garbage. Lilina is more like Est than Nino is, actually.

Actually, I'm fairly certain that I've proved joining early is not a good thing in this case. It may be good for a unit that can make use of it, but in a "who sucks the longest" competition, joining early means you lose.

I don't like this logic because it feels like you're penalizing availability, which doesn't really make sense. Why should a unit be worse on account of the fact that s/he can be used more?

Because in this rare case being available longer is not actually a good thing. If we're assuming they're USED and not just thrown into the character slot to wait at the start of the level in order to prevent negative contribution (in which case they're equal..), the one that hurts the team less wins. Neither of them are contributing positively, especially in the case of Lilina.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Tangerines

[BK-201]

That is completely different. Nino is NOT the equivalent of Est. Nino performs well even at base level, although she obviously can't go soloing everything. Est is garbage. Lilina is more like Est than Nino is, actually.

Actually, I'm fairly certain that I've proved joining early is not a good thing in this case. It may be good for a unit that can make use of it, but in a "who sucks the longest" competition, joining early means you lose.

I don't like this logic because it feels like you're penalizing availability, which doesn't really make sense. Why should a unit be worse on account of the fact that s/he can be used more?

Because in this rare case being available longer is not actually a good thing. If we're assuming they're USED and not just thrown into the character slot to wait at the start of the level in order to prevent negative contribution (in which case they're equal..), the one that hurts the team less wins. Neither of them are contributing positively, especially in the case of Lilina.

Theres the option of not being there. The fact is, if both of them are dragging the team down, the best solution would be to remove them from the lineup altogether. 0=0.

[Florete]

Because in this rare case being available longer is not actually a good thing. If we're assuming they're USED and not just thrown into the character slot to wait at the start of the level in order to prevent negative contribution (in which case they're equal..), the one that hurts the team less wins. Neither of them are contributing positively, especially in the case of Lilina.

I think the real debate is how you view the value of deployment slots. If you go gross, Lilina easily wins because then she's always a positive, and for longer than Nino. Of course, I don't think anyone uses gross these days, so you have to go with net. In that situation, you have to decide if Lilina is more of a negative when deployed (and also when there's enough slots that her deployment is basically free) than Nino, but as soon as she promotes I think her case will be much better since her potshots are quite powerful in a game where many have trouble ORKOing (as opposed to FE7 where people ORKO left and right) and she can heal.

[Tangerine]

Because in this rare case being available longer is not actually a good thing. If we're assuming they're USED and not just thrown into the character slot to wait at the start of the level in order to prevent negative contribution (in which case they're equal..), the one that hurts the team less wins. Neither of them are contributing positively, especially in the case of Lilina.

I think the real debate is how you view the value of deployment slots. If you go gross, Lilina easily wins because then she's always a positive, and for longer than Nino. Of course, I don't think anyone uses gross these days, so you have to go with net. In that situation, you have to decide if Lilina is more of a negative when deployed (and also when there's enough slots that her deployment is basically free) than Nino, but as soon as she promotes I think her case will be much better since her potshots are quite powerful in a game where many have trouble ORKOing (as opposed to FE7 where people ORKO left and right) and she can heal.

Lilina's deployment is always negative. Wendy and Wolt are the only units worse than her after she joins. Then Sophia joins and she's worse than her. Three units are worse than Lilina. I don't think many characters have trouble one rounding at all outside of the early chapters.

[Florete]

Because in this rare case being available longer is not actually a good thing. If we're assuming they're USED and not just thrown into the character slot to wait at the start of the level in order to prevent negative contribution (in which case they're equal..), the one that hurts the team less wins. Neither of them are contributing positively, especially in the case of Lilina.

I think the real debate is how you view the value of deployment slots. If you go gross, Lilina easily wins because then she's always a positive, and for longer than Nino. Of course, I don't think anyone uses gross these days, so you have to go with net. In that situation, you have to decide if Lilina is more of a negative when deployed (and also when there's enough slots that her deployment is basically free) than Nino, but as soon as she promotes I think her case will be much better since her potshots are quite powerful in a game where many have trouble ORKOing (as opposed to FE7 where people ORKO left and right) and she can heal.

Lilina's deployment is always negative. Wendy and Wolt are the only units worse than her after she joins. Then Sophia joins and she's worse than her. Three units are worse than Lilina. I don't think many characters have trouble one rounding at all outside of the early chapters.

I'm pretty sure there are. I don't have exact numbers, but I recall enemies having a lot of HP, and accuracy also tends to be an issue with a lot of units. At the very least, ORKOing isn't nearly as reliable in FE6 as in FE7.

And Lilina is not that bad. I know you don't agree with her current tier position, but how many people do you think she can drop under?

Garret
Douglas
Barth

-Low Tier-
Cath
Hugh
Boris
Zeiss
Dayan
Yodel

-Bottom Tier-
Merlinus
Sue
Walt
Karel
Dorothy

-Graveyard Tier-
Sophia
Wendy

I personally don't think I can see her < Hugh, and his position looks fairly accurate as well.

[Junkhead]

Where is this from, exactly? Merlinus ABOVE Sue?

[Tangerine]

Because in this rare case being available longer is not actually a good thing. If we're assuming they're USED and not just thrown into the character slot to wait at the start of the level in order to prevent negative contribution (in which case they're equal..), the one that hurts the team less wins. Neither of them are contributing positively, especially in the case of Lilina.

I think the real debate is how you view the value of deployment slots. If you go gross, Lilina easily wins because then she's always a positive, and for longer than Nino. Of course, I don't think anyone uses gross these days, so you have to go with net. In that situation, you have to decide if Lilina is more of a negative when deployed (and also when there's enough slots that her deployment is basically free) than Nino, but as soon as she promotes I think her case will be much better since her potshots are quite powerful in a game where many have trouble ORKOing (as opposed to FE7 where people ORKO left and right) and she can heal.

Lilina's deployment is always negative. Wendy and Wolt are the only units worse than her after she joins. Then Sophia joins and she's worse than her. Three units are worse than Lilina. I don't think many characters have trouble one rounding at all outside of the early chapters.

I'm pretty sure there are. I don't have exact numbers, but I recall enemies having a lot of HP, and accuracy also tends to be an issue with a lot of units. At the very least, ORKOing isn't nearly as reliable in FE6 as in FE7.

And Lilina is not that bad. I know you don't agree with her current tier position, but how many people do you think she can drop under?

Garret
Douglas
Barth

-Low Tier-
Cath
Hugh
Boris
Zeiss
Dayan
Yodel

-Bottom Tier-
Merlinus
Sue
Walt
Karel
Dorothy

-Graveyard Tier-
Sophia
Wendy

I personally don't think I can see her < Hugh, and his position looks fairly accurate as well.

I could see her below Hugh easily. She should go below Garret and Douglas without an argument. I think Cath needs to move down as well for the same reason Lilina is a bad unit. Any further down would probably require actual comparisons, but most of those units are so bad even garbage like Lilina is better than them.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Tangerines

[Balcerzak]

Lilina's deployment is always negative. Wendy and Wolt are the only units worse than her after she joins. Then Sophia joins and she's worse than her. Three units are worse than Lilina. I don't think many characters have trouble one rounding at all outside of the early chapters.

20/4 Dieck has ~18 strength. Give him an Iron Blade with 9 might. Field him in chapter 16. Generic Fighter level 15 has Defense ~6, and HP ~41. That's barely a 1RKO, and Dieck is one of the better units on your team. Your units are not all 1RKO machines. This was just an example I picked off the top of my head because I remember back when I was going to construct an argument about the feasibility of feeding Fa kills the fact that people were leaving dudes alive all over the place in her chapter. I'm not bored enough to provide anything more detailed unless it's really asked for, though.

Apparently that webhost has a redirect for image files in links, but I think if you visit the url directly via copy and paste:

http://balcerzak.freehostia.com/FE6/Enemies/Ch16_Fighter_Lv15_Defense.png

http://balcerzak.freehostia.com/FE6/Enemies/Ch16_Fighter_Lv15_HP.png

Edited January 20, 2010 by Balcerzak

[Amelia]

No comment, I vote for Lilina all the way.

[Tangerine]

Lilina's deployment is always negative. Wendy and Wolt are the only units worse than her after she joins. Then Sophia joins and she's worse than her. Three units are worse than Lilina. I don't think many characters have trouble one rounding at all outside of the early chapters.

20/4 Dieck has ~18 strength. Give him an Iron Blade with 9 might. Field him in chapter 16. Generic Fighter level 15 has Defense ~6, and HP ~41. That's barely a 1RKO, and Dieck is one of the better units on your team. Your units are not all 1RKO machines. This was just an example I picked off the top of my head because I remember back when I was going to construct an argument about the feasibility of feeding Fa kills the fact that people were leaving dudes alive all over the place in her chapter. I'm not bored enough to provide anything more detailed unless it's really asked for, though.

Apparently that webhost has a redirect for image files in links, but I think if you visit the url directly via copy and paste:

http://balcerzak.freehostia.com/FE6/Enemies/Ch16_Fighter_Lv15_Defense.png

http://balcerzak.freehostia.com/FE6/Enemies/Ch16_Fighter_Lv15_HP.png

Er, you gave him a weaker weapon than he can use? Steel Axe has 1 more mt against the Fighters and their avo sucks, so he may as well get his axe rank up. In an efficiency run, there's no reason for him not to be using the best he can. In fact, Steel Axes are MUCH cheaper. They're the most cost effective weapons in the game for axe users that have the con to use them. Killer Axes are also available by this point for everyone that can use them. They're also very cheap, so everyone that can should be using them. Unless they lose too much AS anyway.

In a ranked run you don't even care about money, so everyone should be using the best weapons possible no matter the cost.

[Rewjeo]

This is DIECK. One of, if not THE best offensive unit in the entire game? Your other units will, for the most part, be doing much worse than Dieck. Also, Dieck wants to use the Iron Blade more because it effectively has 30 more hit than a Steel Axe.

I assume that you meant an UNranked run?

[BK-201]

30 Hit and is a bit heavier, although only results in the loss of 1 speed. Steel Blades work also.

[Tangerine]

This is DIECK. One of, if not THE best offensive unit in the entire game? Your other units will, for the most part, be doing much worse than Dieck. Also, Dieck wants to use the Iron Blade more because it effectively has 30 more hit than a Steel Axe.

I assume that you meant an UNranked run?

30 hit that does not matter against slow units. Also, lol @ Dieck being the best offensive unit in the game. Best in the EARLY game maybe. Dieck does not want to use the Iron Blade, he wants to get his Axe rank up so he can use Silvers and Killers ASAP. Ending your turn with a Sword on is stupid when a majority of enemies in the game have Lances. Sucking on the enemy phase for a little more accuracy on the player phase = bad playing.

No, FE6 funds rank is a joke. You need like 84k gold to A rank it.

[BK-201]

This is DIECK. One of, if not THE best offensive unit in the entire game? Your other units will, for the most part, be doing much worse than Dieck. Also, Dieck wants to use the Iron Blade more because it effectively has 30 more hit than a Steel Axe.

I assume that you meant an UNranked run?

30 hit that does not matter against slow units. Also, lol @ Dieck being the best offensive unit in the game. Best in the EARLY game maybe. Dieck does not want to use the Iron Blade, he wants to get his Axe rank up so he can use Silvers and Killers ASAP. Ending your turn with a Sword on is stupid when a majority of enemies in the game have Lances. Sucking on the enemy phase for a little more accuracy on the player phase = bad playing.

No, FE6 funds rank is a joke. You need like 84k gold to A rank it.

Swordmaster have 30 critical in this game if I remember correctly.

Also he said Dieck barely 1RKOs a Fighter with a Iron Blade, WTA. This is SF, and as RFoF said, ranked runs are held at less value than at some other places.

Edited January 21, 2010 by BlackKnight

[Florete]

This is DIECK. One of, if not THE best offensive unit in the entire game? Your other units will, for the most part, be doing much worse than Dieck. Also, Dieck wants to use the Iron Blade more because it effectively has 30 more hit than a Steel Axe.

I assume that you meant an UNranked run?

30 hit that does not matter against slow units. Also, lol @ Dieck being the best offensive unit in the game. Best in the EARLY game maybe. Dieck does not want to use the Iron Blade, he wants to get his Axe rank up so he can use Silvers and Killers ASAP. Ending your turn with a Sword on is stupid when a majority of enemies in the game have Lances. Sucking on the enemy phase for a little more accuracy on the player phase = bad playing.

No, FE6 funds rank is a joke. You need like 84k gold to A rank it.

FE6 is not majority Lances (some later maps don't even have Lance wielding enemies). I await the day when people realize only FE7 is really majority Lances.