FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[Inui]

I don't know about you, but I've never had Raven nor Guy promoted this early. I don't know what kind of strategies you use, but your level estimates are madly out of line with my own. You mention people easily getting to 20/10 before endgame, and the only people I ever see that high are prepromotes and Serra and Priscilla due to class bonus. My first string of promotions usually happens at Four Fangs Offense at the earliest, and you're taking about promoting your third string there and worrying that this is "late"? I honestly don't know how you do it.

I consider myself extremely good at EXP management. I typically have characters at balanced levels above what most people have despite my rather heavy use of Marcus/Oswin and still having good scores in Tactics. I don't know why others have issues replicating it.

Guy, for instance, not being 20/1 as far as Chapter 23 is really odd to me. He's in the end of Chapter 13, then rapes in Chapter 13x, and continues to maintain very good offense and passable durability for quite some time. He's ideal for getting 2-3 kills against the uber enemies in 17x and he's ideal for killing Zoldam, possibly Uhai, definitely Aion... He's got FE 6 Rutger boss-slaying qualities due to always doubling them and having high Crit. Without even touching the arena, I'm promoting Guy at 20/1 halfway through my journey on the Dread Isle and Raven shortly after that.

[CATS]

I wouldn't bother with Inui's given levels; nearly everyone who encounters them disagrees with them. I don't remember anyone ever agreeing "oh yeah, I definitely have Oswin promoted before Ch 20" and such; quite the opposite, and he hasn't given convincing explanations of how it's possible. If he could give explanations, or present videos, I'd be alot more convinced. Anyways.

Yes, it's been shown through and through that Priscilla < Serra. My problem is I don't see anyone proving that there's a tier gap. Okay, maybe you have 20/1 Priscilla while Serra is 20/8 or something, but in that case Priscilla contributes considerably more towards Exp rank, correct? I'd consider this especially significant considering that Serra's combat wins often won't be relevant against lategame failure unpromoted enemies, but the gap in Exp gains should remain relevant always. And I don't see how low level + class bonus can be ignored if we're advocating 32x + low level/class bonus assassins for Exp rank padding.

Then there's the fact that a still-unpromoted Priscilla is contributing more to Exp rank than a promoted Serra. A promoted Serra is using CEXP to keep the level gap open, kills which could've gone to other fighters. Priscilla is still drawing Exp only from the unlimited pool of staff Exp. How does this Exp rank advantage not exist, or why is it insignificant?

[Reikken]

It does exist and it's why there's not more than a tier gap. Considering the difference in performance alone, it warrants more than a tier gap as I see it.

[Florete]

How does Priscilla ever catch up after promotion?

Serra's like 20/7 and she's 20/1 (imo Serra could be higher), and Serra has more durability and offense to be able to see more combat. Way more durability, actually. They both gain the same EXP from staves, but Serra is able to see more combat.

20/7? No way. Balcerzak seems to have covered this better than me. Serra is only able to see more combat in that she has slightly better durability. Priscilla gains more experience (she's catching up) and has this little thing called +2 move that allows her to actually reach enemies.

It's been shown that Serra's durability lead can mean the difference between a OHKO and a 2HKO, or a 2HKO and a 3HKO, so yeah, it fo sho matters.

Like I said, the only way it would matter is in the case of OHKOs, of which there are very few.

You're way overhyping Priscilla's MOV. For a loooong time, the only place its really worth a whole lot is in 17. Serra promtoes around like CH 21 or 22, so then she's only 1 move behind Priscilla anyway.

No. 15 where enemies are everywhere it's good. 17 as you mentioned. 17x if you bust through it can be very nice. 18 if you need to jump to the other end of the ship. 20 is just a long map, so more move is obviously good there. 21 has more possible jumping because enemies are everywhere.

And then after you get Physics there are maps like Battle Before Dawn that are huge with split teams that make more move + Physic a good advantage. You are severely underrating this move advantage.

Oh? Only 7-8? Serra comes out of LHM as high as 12, so assuming lv 10 and a few points of exp, she's 12 by Priscilla's joining. That's 9 levels.

Level 12? No fucking way. I just finished an S rank run of LHM literally 10 minutes ago, complete with purposely hurting my own units and giving Serra practically a monopoly on Nils, down to the last turn, and her level was 9.37. No fucking way you're gonna tell me she can reach 12, and 10 would feel too high as well.

However, 11 was what I was assuming by Priscilla's jointime, so 12 by then isn't too far off. I still don't see it, though.

In case you want to know, these are the final levels of everyone in that S rank run:

Lyn: 11.6

Kent: 7

Sain: 7.33

Florina: 7.26

Serra: 9.37

Rath: 8.14

Nils: 5.51

Erk: 7.26

Lucius: 6.85

Matthew: 3.9

Dorcas: 5.14

Wil: 3.94

wallace: 12

Half of 9 levels due to her being promoted already = 4-5. If you so choose, you can have Serra heal as much as you can have Priscilla heal. More, even, since she doesn't have to hang back to avoid getting hit.

But that shouldn't happen. You want Priscilla to heal more for the reasons I already explained (which you haven't countered, btw).

(The thing's expensive. One staff is almost 4k.)

I'm sure Inui can tell you how much of a joke Funds is.

I see. You should have made that clear.

I thought it was.

Well, Serra already has an availability lead on Priscilla, and it's no less than Guy's on Raven's is. For 2.5 of those 5 chapters Guy has on Raven, he's taking up a unit slot that someone else could take.

The unit slot thing? I think I can easily argue Guy as a top competitor for a slot in 15 and 16. This does not lessen his advantage on Raven at all.

For Serra, however, for all 3.5 of those chapters, it's her vs no one. Then you have the "availability" lead that comes with promotion on top of that. Here it's greater because the lead isn't greatly reduced halfway through like it is with Guy vs Raven.

But how much can it outweigh Priscilla winning everywhere else? That's the problem here. Serra's not winning by a lot for very long, and Priscilla is winning elsewhere (when you don't inflate Serra's level at least). The only real availability advantage Serra has is 12-13x, 12 she can't do much anyway. When she promotes, yeah, she's better, but not by that much. Yes, being able to attack is cool, but it's not as if she suddenly becomes your best combat unit either (especially if Guy/Raven are promoting soon) or even your most likely combat unit (because you want others to promote as well).

Now a very important point is that Priscilla doesn't win elsewhere. I would most certainly consider her to be losing slightly before promotion due to fragility, and also losing after again mostly due to issues of durability, though offense does play a role.

Alright seriously, how is this durability thing so important? This makes no sense. We don't assume the player is an idiot here. If Priscilla were consistently OHKOd I'd concede, but that simply isn't the case. Serra's durability isn't significantly greater, at least not by enough to outweigh all of Priscilla's other advantages. And then as I showed before, Serra's not even winning durability by that much after promotion, and it might even turn in Priscilla's favor.

What are you talking about? I dunno what the FE10 thing is about, but you're not having your healers tank enemies; you're making tactical/strategic moves that you can't otherwise safely make without your healer being able to live through an attack or two.

FE10 healers have a tendency to be ORKOd (until Mist grows Spd). Your healer should never be attacked by more than one enemy, if even that. This is not a major point.

Here's a nonspecific example. Say you want to finish off an enemy with someone but you only have a 90% chance of successfully being able to do so. If you attempt and miss, you'll eat a counterattack and also be exposed to one more enemy and thus risk dying. However, if your healer is durable enough to move in and heal without also risking death, you can go ahead with the plan. Otherwise, you can't.

Since I only see one enemy in your example, and Priscilla is not often OHKOd, this should be no problem. And if you're hinging Serra's advantage on a 10% scenario, where do you think we'll be going with this?

Add in the stuff CATS said, Priscilla helping her support partners more, and Aid, and I don't see a tier gap. Not at all.

It does exist and it's why there's not more than a tier gap. Considering the difference in performance alone, it warrants more than a tier gap as I see it.

Am I reading this wrong? At first you explain why there is not more than a tier gap, then you switch and say why there is.

[Inui]

I wouldn't bother with Inui's given levels; nearly everyone who encounters them disagrees with them. I don't remember anyone ever agreeing "oh yeah, I definitely have Oswin promoted before Ch 20" and such; quite the opposite, and he hasn't given convincing explanations of how it's possible. If he could give explanations, or present videos, I'd be alot more convinced. Anyways.

I'm in Chapter 16 with a level 14.5 Oswin and 3.5 Marcus with 5 stars in Experience. >_>;

[Florete]

I'm in Chapter 16 with a level 14.5 Oswin and 3.5 Marcus with 5 stars in Experience. >_>;

And, as has been pointed out before, the early chapters are a joke for Experience compared to the later chapters. What you have at Ch 16 is largely irrelevant.

[Inui]

And, as has been pointed out before, the early chapters are a joke for Experience compared to the later chapters. What you have at Ch 16 is largely irrelevant.

I guess.

Too bad I'm pretty smart with my cash, too, and can easily afford my Assassins in 32x thing to make up for any EXP lost in other stuff. :)

I get S ranks in this game with my methods. Oh well if I'm not believed. I don't know how to make vids.

[CATS]

If we believed your methods, Exp rank would be a joke, so then only Tactics would matter and it would basically be an efficiency tier list anyways. So maybe it's good that you don't know how to do vids >_>

The problem I have with the tier gap is that it's just one advantage vs another. Serra has better durability, and Priscilla has more Exp rank. The other side points mostly cancel out; Priscilla has move that matters on a few chapters, Serra has availability, etc. In most cases of a tier gap there's more than this. Ninian has more than one advantage over the high tier characters. Kent has mobility, offense and defense over Dorcas. Guy has availability and offense over Geitz. etc. It's ultimately subjective, so meh, it's tough for me to come up with a defining argument which says "This is how much a tier gap is, and this is how Priscilla clearly doesn't lose by that much." All I can say is that, atm, I don't see it.

[Inui]

Priscilla has more Experience rank? By what, 100 EXP? Serra has less to gain by ~7, but she maintains that level lead almost forever, so...

[Reikken]

Am I reading this wrong?

Apparently, yes.

Since I only see one enemy in your example,

Sorry, I thought it should go without saying that for someone to be in danger of dying, there would be more than one enemy in the vicinity. Besides, do I really have to even indicate that there is more than one enemy nearby when such a simple thing could very easily occur (and in practice is usually the case), for you to consider the possibility of it happening?

And if you're hinging Serra's advantage on a 10% scenario

...It's not that Serra is helpful only 10% of the time, because if that 10% chance occurs, someone can DIE, so you avoid it 100% of the time. unless your healer is durable enough to rectifiy the messy situation that would result, in which case you can go ahead with it 100% of the time.

And again, that's just one example. I'm not going to sit here and type out a list of various scenarios. I've got enough to write up with all this as it is.

And...

Alright seriously, how is this durability thing so important? This makes no sense. We don't assume the player is an idiot here. If Priscilla were consistently OHKOd I'd concede, but that simply isn't the case. Serra's durability isn't significantly greater, at least not by enough to outweigh all of Priscilla's other advantages. And then as I showed before, Serra's not even winning durability by that much after promotion, and it might even turn in Priscilla's favor.

...lone enemies usually don't appear. There is usually more than one enemy in the same vicinity; thus a unit can be attacked by more than one enemy. And then, even with only one enemy per turn, if you can only take one hit, then after that one hit, you're done until someone spends a turn healing you. However, if you can take more (or if you dodge!), then you can still take another.

The unit slot thing? I think I can easily argue Guy as a top competitor for a slot in 15 and 16. This does not lessen his advantage on Raven at all.

Whether or not he's a "top competitor" is largely irrelevant to the fact that it's not him vs noone anymore, which was the point in case you missed it.

The only real availability advantage Serra has is 12-13x, 12 she can't do much anyway.

Keeping Hector/Matt alive, and while still being able to actually attack, is pretty important. If your point was instead that 12 is a short chapter, then sure, that's valid. And you forgot 14. Pris doesn't appear until a good ways in, and when she does, she's away from just about everything.

When she promotes, yeah, she's better, but not by that much. Yes, being able to attack is cool, but it's not as if she suddenly becomes your best combat unit either (especially if Guy/Raven are promoting soon) or even your most likely combat unit (because you want others to promote as well).

Yes, it is by that much. It's the biggest difference between two units who can seriously be compared in this game that I know of. I already explained this. I can quote it if you need to see it again.

Better than just about anyone unless you early-promoted someone.

For example, you can kill someone and then leave her in range of 3 additional physical scrubs plus a mage and be fairly confident (<1% chance) that she won't die, and have about a 50% chance of not taking any damage at all if they're steel weapons or similar, and one-round all of them in the process regardless of what they are, whether it be an archer, cavalier, knight, etc, except perhaps the mage if it's not a dark user. I don't know that anyone else can make that claim.

But that shouldn't happen. You want Priscilla to heal more for the reasons I already explained (which you haven't countered, btw).

There's nothing stopping you from having Serra heal just as much. Anything Priscilla can do she can do as well.

Level 12? No fucking way. I just finished an S rank run of LHM literally 10 minutes ago, complete with purposely hurting my own units and giving Serra practically a monopoly on Nils, down to the last turn, and her level was 9.37. No fucking way you're gonna tell me she can reach 12, and 10 would feel too high as well.

However, 11 was what I was assuming by Priscilla's jointime, so 12 by then isn't too far off. I still don't see it, though.

In case you want to know, these are the final levels of everyone in that S rank run:

Lyn: 11.6

Kent: 7

Sain: 7.33

Florina: 7.26

Serra: 9.37

Rath: 8.14

Nils: 5.51

Erk: 7.26

Lucius: 6.85

Matthew: 3.9

Dorcas: 5.14

Wil: 3.94

wallace: 12

Here are the levels of mine (done about a year ago):

		P	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	7x	8	9	10	   
Total exp	133	395	580	942	1683	2075	2394	3223	4093	4730	5677	6782	   
per Ch		133	262	185	362	741	392	319	829	870	637	947	1105	   
baseLvl													   
Lyn	1.00	2.33	3.00	3.10	3.60	4.00	4.23	4.43	4.43	4.62	5.34	6.18	6.48	   
Sain	1.00		1.31	2.09	3.98	5.60	6.03	6.03	6.28	6.30	6.31	6.31	6.64	   
Kent	1.00		2.64	3.61	3.91	5.80	6.04	6.04	6.04	6.04	6.13	6.14	6.52	   
Florina	1.00				1.73	3.47	3.80	4.50	5.54	6.01	6.19	6.62	6.90	   
Wil	2.00				2.20	2.20	2.30	2.40	2.40	2.40	2.40	2.40	2.43	   
Dorcas	3.00					4.76	5.11	5.21	5.21	5.21	5.31	5.79	6.41	   
Erk	1.00						2.80	4.16	4.46	7.02	8.64	10.21	12.38	   
Serra	1.00						1.44	1.89	4.09	6.40	7.97	9.85	12.72	   
Rath	7.00							7.13	7.13	7.13	7.13	7.13	7.15	   
Matthew	2.00							2.15	5.06	6.34	6.34	8.90	11.05	   
Nils	1.00								2.00	3.10	3.93	4.84	6.24	   
Lucius	3.00								3.59	4.36	5.61	6.40	6.90	   
Wallace	12.00											12.00	12.00

Notes to go with it:

P- 5 turns

1- General strategy: Push northeast, without exception.

Lyn+Kent kills first guy.

Trade Lyn's sword to Sain on turn 2 so he can use it on Enemy Phase that turn.

Trade sword back for turn 3; Lyn uses on EP that turn, while Sain is out of enemy range (just out of boss's range).

Trade sword again on T4; Sain uses on boss. Kent attacks boss as well. Boss suicides on T4 EP.

2- Did not kill all enemies. 2-3 were still alive at the end. Win on T4.

3- tried something new: rescue/drop to bring Lyn over faster to help clear out enemies faster since she can double with a 1337 sword, and Kent can't. It worked. Easy 4 turn-completion. (Usually I have Lyn visit the house with Wil. Florina did it this time.)

4- nothing too noteworthy

5- rescue/drop'd Dorcas with Florina so he could help Erk kill the boss faster. Dead on T4.

6- 4 turns. Total: 33/45

7- k, now comes the hard part: making sure I have at least two people with damage every turn. Not too terribly hard on this chapter. Started making use of the "Kent/Sain rescues someone and equips a javelin" strategy. 10 turns. 43/51

7x- Massive Matt spamming. Erk spam, too. 11 turns. 54/58

8- 8T. 62/65

9- 9T. 71/73

10- This one is very hard. To get Serra to heal twice every turn, that is, because of the first few turns. Made use of Matt and Florina to get several units across the river because going around is way too slow. Matthew takes across Lyn and Erk on T1. Florina gets Lucius, Nils, Serra, and Dorcas across, in that order, on T2-5.

Getting Nils and Serra across such that Serra still gets in two heals those turns was a bit tricky. Serra healed, and then Nils plays, and then Nils got rescued by Sain and take/drop'd by Florina, and Serra heals. And then next turn, Serra heals (damage provided by Dorcas attacking a mage while holding Wil), gets ferried across by Sain and Florina, and then Nils and a Lucius who got attacked by a Merc last turn are there waiting.

Rain causes minimal interference since I'm moving through mountains and forests when it kicks in anyway.

Got in a few turns of Lundgren abuse (with Erk rescuing Florina so he doesn't double or dodge---he does this for the cavalier reinforcements, too---and Matt taking advantage of my funds surplus to burn through that lancereaver) before time was up.

No. 15 where enemies are everywhere it's good. 17 as you mentioned. 17x if you bust through it can be very nice. 18 if you need to jump to the other end of the ship. 20 is just a long map, so more move is obviously good there. 21 has more possible jumping because enemies are everywhere.

And then after you get Physics there are maps like Battle Before Dawn that are huge with split teams that make more move + Physic a good advantage. You are severely underrating this move advantage.

More move is nice, yes, but how far you can move is usually restricted more by how far you can move without dying than by how much move you have. And maps are pretty cramped, so it's rare that more move is needed to reach someone within an area. It matters sure, but less than the defense matters.

[Narga_Rocks]

Apparently, yes.

Sorry, I thought it should go without saying that for someone to be in danger of dying, there would be more than one enemy in the vicinity. Besides, do I really have to even indicate that there is more than one enemy nearby when such a simple thing could very easily occur (and in practice is usually the case), for you to consider the possibility of it happening?

So let me get this straight. Correct me if there is anything I missed.

(before either promotes)

There is a small number of enemies that 3RKO Serra but 2RKO Priscilla.

There are 2 enemies present (otherwise the risk of Serra dying is too high to care and your point is null)

1 of these enemies dies on player phase 90% of the time, and lives 10% of the time

For some reason you only have one combat unit available to attack 1 of the 2 enemies.

This one combat unit apparently will die if he misses and doesn't get healed, so apparently he was quite injured beforehand.

You probably could have healed this one combat unit before he attacked the enemy with a 90% true hit rate and then if he misses he doesn't need to be healed unless he's normally 3RKOd from max hp and got hit or is normally 2RKOd and dodged.

And you give this more weight than a move advantage and thus state Serra > Pris before either promote?

Oh, and about Pris's move advantages? It isn't just keeping up. You can also more easily heal a unit before it moves, then in the following turn heal a unit after it moves and attacks. In order for Serra to keep up? Not always going to work out so well.

So here's my scenario to you, which will have about as little justification as yours.

You have one unit that is almost dead. If it gets hit by anything, it dies. You want this unit to kill something, but it 2HKOs and doubles, so will take a counter. You must heal this unit before it attacks if you want to guarantee survival. Pris/Serra heals. He attacks, whatever happens happens. Next turn, some unit moves up, attacks, takes a counter, is near death. There is an enemy nearby, or you have a wall including this near death PC (so that a healer healing Mr. Near Death won't get attacked by more than one enemy using range). Serra is too far back because she only has 5 move. Pris' 7 mov lets you heal this unit. Oh look, more options thanks to the move.

...It's not that Serra is helpful only 10% of the time, because if that 10% chance occurs, someone can DIE, so you avoid it 100% of the time. unless your healer is durable enough to rectifiy the messy situation that would result, in which case you can go ahead with it 100% of the time.

So in certain rare instances (I outlined just how rare it truly is above) you choose to send Serra in rather than Pris. Minor advantage.

And then, even with only one enemy per turn, if you can only take one hit, then after that one hit, you're done until someone spends a turn healing you. However, if you can take more (or if you dodge!), then you can still take another.

This is actually a much more significant point than your scenario. Even so, aren't there turns where you don't need to heal anyone? Well, Serra gets more exp thanks to Pris needing a heal. Pris is adding to exp rank again.

There's nothing stopping you from having Serra heal just as much. Anything Priscilla can do she can do as well.

No, she can't do as well. She does it worse. Know why? She gets less experience. By definition, this is most certainly not "as well", thanks. Remember, promoted vs. unpromoted? Also, if having Serra able to attack is such an advantage, isn't it logical that having Pris able to attack is also an advantage? Not necessarily as big an advantage, what with the LoDMR, but certainly a bigger advantage than giving Serra an extra little bit of exp. Difference between level 6 and level 7 vs. the difference between promoted and not promoted? Exp to Pris, thanks. 2 advantages, or two good reasons to give the exp to Pris. Optimization of resources is the basis for the second reason, and some don't like playing optimally so I can understand ignoring that reason, but the first is purely a rank reason, and since this is a ranked tier list...

More move is nice, yes, but how far you can move is usually restricted more by how far you can move without dying than by how much move you have. And maps are pretty cramped, so it's rare that more move is needed to reach someone within an area. It matters sure, but less than the defense matters.

It's not just about how far ahead she can go (at least, not until she starts attacking), it's about the flexibility you have when healing.

Considering how rarely the defense matters, I can't imagine more move (and ability to take part in take+drop fast moves of units with less move, like, say, promoted Serra anyone?) could possibly mean less.

[Reikken]

So let me get this straight. Correct me if there is anything I missed.

The entire thing is wrong. You're mixing multiple things into one scenario. though I don't blame you; lame fragmented format is hard to follow for anyone but the parties involved, which is why I usually don't take the time to read long posts like that from other people.

The 3HK/2HK stuff was simply a demonstration in difference in defense.

The example scenario that I gave doesn't have all those constraints.

Also

There is a large number of enemies that 3RKO Serra but 2RKO Priscilla.

fixed

No, she can't do as well.

Sorry for being ambiguous. By "as well", I meant "also".

As for exp rank, no one is contesting that.

[Narga_Rocks]

The entire thing is wrong. You're mixing multiple things into one scenario. though I don't blame you; lame fragmented format is hard to follow for anyone but the parties involved, which is why I usually don't take the time to read long posts like that from other people.

The 3HK/2HK stuff was simply a demonstration in difference in defense.

The example scenario that I gave doesn't have all those constraints.

So what's your scenario, anyway? You seem to bring up the idea that the player needs to expose Serra for some strange reason and that Serra will live and Pris will/might die when you do it. For the life of me, I can't really see how that scenario will show up very often. At least not in an unavoidable way. Like I said, Pris can heal before the other unit moves. Also, the fact that this phantom unit needs to be healed likely means that its durability after one hit is worse than Serra's. Otherwise, why does Serra need to go up there in the first place?

Sorry for being ambiguous. By "as well", I meant "also".

As for exp rank, no one is contesting that.

Then why heal with Serra? The point, here, is that if you have only one unit to heal in a given turn, you choose Pris whenever possible because of the extra exp. This has the consequence of potentially closing the level gap (depending on how often this happens vs. how much combat Serra gets). Just because you could heal with Serra instead of Priscilla does not necessarily mean that you should. There are 2 reasons to use Pris instead of Serra. The only reason presented for healing with Serra instead of Pris effectively boils down to "'cause we can".

edit:

by the way, this:

There is a small number of enemies that 3RKO Serra but 2RKO Priscilla.

There are 2 enemies present (otherwise the risk of Serra dying is too high to care and your point is null)

1 of these enemies dies on player phase 90% of the time, and lives 10% of the time

For some reason you only have one combat unit available to attack 1 of the 2 enemies.

This one combat unit apparently will die if he misses and doesn't get healed, so apparently he was quite injured beforehand.

You probably could have healed this one combat unit before he attacked the enemy with a 90% true hit rate and then if he misses he doesn't need to be healed unless he's normally 3RKOd from max hp and got hit or is normally 2RKOd and dodged.

is an analysis of the implications of your scenario, not what you have explicitly stated. Aside from a possible mistake on the first point (though do note that if there are 2 enemies they both have to be weak enough to 3RKO Serra. If one just barely doesn't 2RKO Serra and the other 2RKOs, she may be 2RKOd anyway), what is the problem with the rest? Your scenario basically states

there is a 90% chance of your PC killing something and that if he doesn't he needs healing.

In the event of that miss, Serra can heal without risking death and Pris can't.

I filled in the rest because your scenario was very lacking in details. If you can come up with some other way in which your scenario is unavoidable (ie: a unit must be healed and only Serra can do so safely) that invalidates my conclusion (that the scenario is rare), I'd love to see it.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

I'll get the stuff Narga didn't already.

Whether or not he's a "top competitor" is largely irrelevant to the fact that it's not him vs noone anymore, which was the point in case you missed it.

And when Serra promotes, it isn't her vs no one either, it's still her vs Priscilla. Plus, Guy is still beating Raven for some time until he promotes.

Keeping Hector/Matt alive, and while still being able to actually attack, is pretty important. If your point was instead that 12 is a short chapter, then sure, that's valid. And you forgot 14. Pris doesn't appear until a good ways in, and when she does, she's away from just about everything.

No, my point was Pegasus Knights. I just played that map and there are like 4 PK's that can swarm you + a Bandit with Hand Axe, an Archer, and a couple other dudes. Likely best option is to have Hector and Oswin tank them, self-healing on occasion.

Also, I recruit Priscilla on like turn 4 of 14 thanks to Marcus, so she's there for a good amount of it.

[CATS]

100 Exp? More than that. If we assume the level gap stays open until Priscilla promotes, then both of them gained what, like 900 Exp? Priscilla's came totally from staves. Serra's SEXP is halved, and when she spends turns attacking she can't heal, so she obviously has to do alot of combat to compensate for that. She's getting, at the very least, 400-500 of her Exp from CEXP, since if she heals every turn she should only get ~450, but instead she got 900 somehow. I don't think a 20/1 Serra is gaining significantly if any more CEXP from kills than a L12 Raven or w/e, either, so her contributions to Exp rank from that CEXP would be minimal or none. 400-500 additional Exp towards that rank seems pretty significant to me; it's more extra Exp than most combat units will ever earn.

Anyways, if we just promote Priscilla.

20/3 Serra w/ Lightning: 17.5 Atk, 16.4 AS----30.5 Hp, 7.15 Def, 51.4 Avo

12/3 Priscilla w/ Fire, C Erk: 17.4 Atk, 12.4 AS----23.95 Hp, 6.65 Def, 40.95 Avo

I'm gonna say this is around Ch 22.

Serra is slightly better at killing mages. The most they can get is 23 Hp/7 Res, which she can barely get with Shine, while Priscilla leaves it with 2 Hp, so she has that. The two shamans on the map have slightly better defenses, so Serra wins there too. That's about it. Everything physical (the majority of the map's enemies) will die to either one of them. There's only a few nomads and cavs with 9 AS, and Priscilla's Spd is almost exactly 12-13, so she's borderline on getting even those.

Defensively, physical enemies generally have anywhere from 18 to 23 Atk. 18 Atk actually will kill them in the same number of hits, albeit just barely. 23 Atk will 2HKO both of them. Everything in between, Serra can take an extra hit from, but that still leaves a significant window of enemy Atk values that kills them both in the same number of hits. Serra's advantage is that she can take an extra hit from what, like 2/3 of the enemies, with 10 more Avo, and is better at ORKOing against (just guesstimating here) like 10% of the map's enemies at most? I guess if that's your definition of a tier gap, then at the least, this is a good opportunity to quantify exactly how much a "tier gap" is, since I think this is pushing it.

And keep in mind that if it's better to leave Priscilla unpromoted for Exp rank, then the gap in overall contributions should be even closer than this in reality.

[Colonel M]

I want to hear more of this. I think I'm slowly, but surely, re-buying the whole no tier difference.

[Rodykitty]

It doesn't seem like to me that either character is top tier material, as a lot of their aspects can be affected by other character traits.

Healing: Devaluated by a high durability unit, and in the later game promoted staff users with high magic and Elixers. Healing still keeps low durability units alive, but even without a tier gap they're still above units that typically need a medic often.

EXP Gain: This is obviously a great asset, but Serra is top tier and not Priscilla, so I do not imagine it is weighed so heavily to imply top tier status. Other characters can also gain EXP, but Serra & Priscilla do it easily.

Attacking: They are not able to do this their whole life, and there are three other Magic users that have been able to carry this task.

This leaves Top Tier as Matthew, Raven, and Ninian/Nils, and High Tier as Serra & Priscilla > the rest of the game, and right below them, Marcus, who is the best unit in the game on efficiency.

[CATS]

I disagree. I see them both as top tier because of Exp rank if nothing else. Exp rank is just as important as Tactics; both require 5 stars in order for overall Exp rank, and Serra/Priscilla clobber most units in contributions towards Exp, while still contributing towards Tactics. Just consider that whatever kills Guy or whoever is taking could've gone to other combatants instead. The number of kills is limited. His contributions towards Exp rank are minimal if they even exist at all. You could argue that he helps by giving you more units to spread Exp between, resulting in higher Exp gains on each individual unit, but even this isn't true. There are other combat units who can be used in his place to achieve the same effect.

On the other hand, no substitutions of any kind can replace the Exp that Serra and Priscilla generate. The Exp that they're earning is almost entirely in addition to what you would've gotten without them, as opposed to most of your random combat units, who don't give you much if anything in addition to what you would've earned without them. When you take this into account and realize how much Exp they are contributing just by leveling up to promotion, it's ridiculous. Serra gives you something like 1400 Exp of this sort (~1000 from leveling up to 20 and then 400 from staff use afterward) and Priscilla gives you about 1700 during the same timespan. Guy barely gives you any extra Exp. It's a huge advantage. Attacking would have to be way, way, way better than healing to make up for that, especially considering the healers can attack anyways for a significant part of the game.

[Colonel M]

I also wouldn't say that healing prowess deteriorates over time either. It's still an important aspect to have, and even if the unit doesn't need healing whatsoever you can generate the EXP elsewhere (those Barrier Staves are a good example since it frees a combat from using a Pure Water on themselves).

Take Cog of Destiny for an example. Just listing the # of enemies in here: 45. That's a lot when you consider that almost 80% of them are magical. To run them down (no I'm not digging out the enemy stats but I'll at least list Atk values, Hit, and AS since it's not too difficult).

10 Shamans. Those that have Flux have about 17 Atk, 94 Hit, 14 AS. There's 3 with Nosferatus (21 Atk, 84 Hit, 1 AS) and 3 with Luna (12 Atk, 109 Hit, 3 AS with 23 Crit). It's pretty dangerous just with those guys alone. You're bound to take a hit and, even if you do, it's bound to hurt as well. Mekkah had a 10 Lowen with 10 Res (so 17 after Pure Water). Nosferatu Shamans still dent him (4 damage) and Luna ignores Res and hits him straight with a decent chance of a critical hit (by the way, Kent isn't the luckiest dude on earth from what I recall). So those are the strongest of the Mages. There's Monks and Mages, but Mages don't get much stronger than Shamans (just faster really) and Monks are pretty much a joke after you swallow a Pure Water. There are 3 Druids with Luna and Eclipse, which the latter is kind of a joke anyway, but the former is still a major hazard. By the way they also carry Sleep and Berserk. Man it's a nightmare. The Druids have about 23, 26, and 29 Atk with Luna, btw. That fucking hurts. Valkyries have about 23-25 Atk and about 20 AS, so if you're not sitting on 17 AS (hint: pretty hard), you're bound to take two hits from them. Anyway, the point is: healing is still very necessary throughout the entire game. While it's true that the enemies are not exactly of quality early on, they make up for it in quantity. Oh, and a LOT of sniping Magic.

But, CATS thing with the EXP rank is the biggest reason why they're both Top Tier. Even if Serra gives you a little more and adding on the Combat rank after a promotion (I really don't see her blitzing the front lines, but at least she can take a couple of hits so "shrugs"), and there are few units who can actually shaft Priscilla and Serra out of their job. You could argue a promoted Erk / Lucius / Canas does, but by doing so you're destroying the EXP rank even more (they have to fully rely on Heal to get EXP or they get single digit EXP per hit / kill). You could also argue that Priscilla gets you more of the EXP rank as well (well, it's true that Serra gives you a lot of it, but Priscilla is forced to use Staves while Serra can switch inbetween but even her combat gains aren't mighty).

So really, I'm back with Priscilla in Top Tier again. Whether you want to argue her under Ninian and Nils is another story, but to take a rank that is difficult to master (no, 32X does not necessarily count as making the rank a joke) is pretty useful.

EDIT: Rebecca > Rath. One's forced and at least gives you a semblance of CEXP while she's there, so at least she can theoretically help the EXP rank without kicking out a better unit in the process.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Pretty much what CATS said

The only reason I had assumed that EXP was not considered that important because it was somehow okay for Priscilla to be High tier, but Serra remaining in top.

But if EXP really is that important, then people arguing a tier gap was silly and a bunch of madness anyway.

Edited February 20, 2010 by FE3 Player

[-Cynthia-]

My point originally was Serra> Raven. I'm not sure what raven does that's so special it makes up for Serra's staff utility.

[CATS]

The only reason I had assumed that EXP was not considered that important because it was somehow okay for Priscilla to be High tier, but Serra remaining in top.

But if EXP really is that important, then people arguing a tier gap was silly and a bunch of madness anyway.

Indeed. Exp commonly seems to get atleast as much attention and weight as Tactics. Even if Tactics were more important, it would have to be liek, twice as important as Exp in order for the healers to not be top tier. From what I can see, at least.

[Colonel M]

CATS, while you're here, I'm assuming that you wouldn't see Ninian and Nils as High Tier units due to the Ranks requirements that she helps in (in particular Exp and Tactics). I'm just curious.

[CATS]

Definitely not. They are the undisputed best for Tactics while they exist and contribute to the Exp rank almost as much as Serra/Priscilla do. I would argue them to be more than top tier if they were available for the whole game; instead, other top tiers do have availability to match against their advantages, so they're just normal top tier instead of Seth/Titania tier.

[Inui]

wtf @ Priscilla going back to top tier

I thought Reikken's posts were the best ones in this thread. Meh.