[OUTDATED] Elibian Nights

[Anouleth]

I never said he had to use all the available colour slots, I simply said that he should have made better use of them. Also, I was never against his aging, yeah, in three years, people won't age all that much to be heavily and easily recognizable, it was more the fact that his hair remained exactly the same, and that it was a poor choice of colour in the armour, those were my two problems with the mug, and those two problems were my opinion, and just an opinion.

So does Arch need to get new hair for every single returning character since apparently, it's impossible for someone to keep the same hairstyle for three years (even though Marcus and Bartre don't change their hair in /twenty/ years)? And you don't seem to have a problem with literally every other character in this hack keeping their hairstyle.

And the sprite you posted for Lowen looks terrible. It looks nothing like him! Even Dan is recognisably the same character as Dart.

[Nintenlord]

Also, Nintenlord, I never said he needed to be more creative. :L

How else should we interpret this:

You're shooting your creativity in the foot, you have so much open potential, possibly more so than the programmers since they had to slave themselves with the engine, etc, and yet here you are, setting yourself short. It's sad.

And you really shouldn't talk about programming or anything related to it, it is very easy to see that you know very little on the subject. If any group of people are slaved to the engine of FE7, it's us. The programmers who worked for FE7 were very likely the exact same people who made the engine in the first place and even if they weren't, IS and Nintendo make their own engines and not giving your own programmers access to it would be pretty stupid. The changes they made into the engine (assuming they even re-used the engine in the first place) from FE7 to FE8 are much greater than what we have done so far for the same game, so they had used much more freedom than we have so far.

And speaking of which, I get the tone from your post that you think programmers aren't or can't be creative, which is BS as anyone who has ever seriously programmed can tell you.

[zahlman]

The real reason Lowen has turned green is that Rebecca has brainwashed him into joining her cult of green-ness.

[Teapot]

Guys, it's fuckin' Lowen. Nobody cares. If you're going to bitch about it, how about offering up a revised mug or better for the project, instead? At least that way we'd get something done.

[Celice]

How else should we interpret this:

He isn't suggesting an increase in creativity--he's suggesting the use of it at all.

And with the standards Arch repeatedly says he holds himself to, there's no reason why Lowen's shuffled-in "update" should suffice other than "Well, I don't want to put the work into it."

Lowen doesn't need a haircut. But he shouldn't be a carbon-clone of himself three years ago, with a new armor graphic smashed on his chest (the angles don't even match all that well).

Edited December 1, 2011 by Celice

[Jubby]

Lawwl ffs, it's Arch's game and he doesn't see a problem with the Lowen mug, so he doesn't see a need to replace it. If it's THAT important to you just don't play the game -.-

Guys, it's fuckin' Lowen. Nobody cares. If you're going to bitch about it, how about offering up a revised mug or better for the project, instead? At least that way we'd get something done.

^^ This too XP

[Parrhesia]

I'm not even sure what the argument against the new Lowen mug is.

- It's clearly that of a Great Knight

- It's aged appropriately given Lowen's age by FE7

- It's obviously Lowen himself

- Nobody's offering alternatives

Like seriously

what are you even arguing

do you want Lowen to undergo a full-on style change or something

because you can damn well make the mug yourselves, if you do.

[Crimson Red]

I remember the days back when recolors used to be badass

Good times, goooooooood times

(and if you don't remember those days, you haven't payed attention to the FE community for as long as I have, 'cuz recolors sure as heck were badass)

People who try to reach their max potential almost always die before they get there. Just look at villains in video games, just before they conquer the world they get their asses handed to them by a bunch of a kids, and on a silver platter at that. I'd rather EN finishes before Arch dies, even if it means EN has its problems. This is just like how I gave up trying to have perfect graphical hacks in order to actually get progress done with my hacks. ^_^

@暁, no matter how good a point you make is, if people don't really care about that point, then there's nothing more you can do. Friendly suggestion, give up on trying to make change, you're outnumbered... ultimately your choice though...

[FalconVegeta1986]

Quite so indeed.

OK. I'm making sure I wasn't losing my mind.

[Celice]

(and if you don't remember those days, you haven't payed attention to the FE community for as long as I have, 'cuz recolors sure as heck were badass)

Custom mugs were similarly awesome before you were around. The original incarnation of FESS tossed them around freely as did essentially any other fan-based forum which dabbled in spriting. From what I recall, you didn't really show up (along with Arch) until the later life of FESS.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Celice

[Popo]

The reason the hair bugged me so much was because he decided to grow facial hair, it seemed weird he would change his facial hair and yet leave the hair on his head alone, especially considering his personality.

:|

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

:|

noooooooooooooo, what have you done!? those blank, expressionless eyes are the creepiest thing i've ever seen X_X

[Arch]

Alright, so, taking into consideration the criticism of the armor color, Lowen's donning a new color on his suit of armor. I figure grey is the perfect color for Lowen, he's the epitome of 'plain' and 'mediocre.'

Everything else, however, will remain as-is. His hair shall not be cut, and there isn't much you can structurally do to his face to show age (talked to ALS about it). I think I'll write in some jokes about his hair, somewhat inspired by this whole silly little ordeal.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Arch

[FalconVegeta1986]

That actually looks pretty good IMO. Grey does fit his personality.

[Popo]

noooooooooooooo, what have you done!? those blank, expressionless eyes are the creepiest thing i've ever seen X_X

Those are Kent's eyes! XD

Anyways, I think Lowen looked fine exactly the way he was, but the gray armor is a good choice too. :3

[Anouleth]

Lowen doesn't need a haircut. But he shouldn't be a carbon-clone of himself three years ago, with a new armor graphic smashed on his chest (the angles don't even match all that well).

Okay then, what do you suggest would be a good way of showing his age? Because hair changes and skin changes are obviously out, his armour is already changed to show that he's bulkier, and he has facial hair. Without changing his hair, or without giving him a lined face (which would be ridiculous for a <25 year old), there is /no change/ you can make to Lowen that has not already been done, other than changing his hair, which is not really necessary.

It is PERFECTLY acceptable to have Lowen keep his hairstyle after three years. Every other character in FE7 has kept their hairstyle in this hack, yet nobody is bitching about them. Every character in FE10 and FE12 and a few in FE6 kept their hairstyle, yet I don't see anyone moaning about that. Could you really say that Lowen has changed less than Kieran, Oscar, or Geoffrey did between FE9 and FE10?

[Byte2222]

Alright, so, taking into consideration the criticism of the armor color, Lowen's donning a new color on his suit of armor. I figure grey is the perfect color for Lowen, he's the epitome of 'plain' and 'mediocre.'

I quite like it actually. I never liked the bright green armour but decided not to complain about it; I think this is definitely an improvement. I'm also on the "no haircut" side, surprisingly little can sometimes change in 3 years as well.

[Aethereal]

Okay then, what do you suggest would be a good way of showing his age? Because hair changes and skin changes are obviously out, his armour is already changed to show that he's bulkier, and he has facial hair. Without changing his hair, or without giving him a lined face (which would be ridiculous for a <25 year old), there is /no change/ you can make to Lowen that has not already been done, other than changing his hair, which is not really necessary.

It is PERFECTLY acceptable to have Lowen keep his hairstyle after three years. Every other character in FE7 has kept their hairstyle in this hack, yet nobody is bitching about them. Every character in FE10 and FE12 and a few in FE6 kept their hairstyle, yet I don't see anyone moaning about that. Could you really say that Lowen has changed less than Kieran, Oscar, or Geoffrey did between FE9 and FE10?

Exactly. And no one says a thing about FE10 characters. And moreover, FE12 has a ridiculous amount of mugs from FE11 that seem like they just touched up before putting them in. To give, what I think, is a pretty good parallel to Lowen, here's Abel with a 2 year gap between FE11 and 12, one less than EN:

Fe11 Abel, FE12. Comparing them side by side, there was a slight angle change, one is slightly brighter than the other, and in 12, Abel has a slight frown compared to a completely blank expression. But no one is clamoring about this, yet Arch and ALS are doing a poor job showing aging? They're modifying the characters more than IS does in order to show changes in position or age. I don't understand why this conversation is even happening :/

[Celice]

Okay then, what do you suggest would be a good way of showing his age? Because hair changes and skin changes are obviously out, his armour is already changed to show that he's bulkier, and he has facial hair. Without changing his hair, or without giving him a lined face (which would be ridiculous for a <25 year old), there is /no change/ you can make to Lowen that has not already been done, other than changing his hair, which is not really necessary.

It is PERFECTLY acceptable to have Lowen keep his hairstyle after three years. Every other character in FE7 has kept their hairstyle in this hack, yet nobody is bitching about them. Every character in FE10 and FE12 and a few in FE6 kept their hairstyle, yet I don't see anyone moaning about that. Could you really say that Lowen has changed less than Kieran, Oscar, or Geoffrey did between FE9 and FE10?

If you're going to direct a reply at me, you should realize it's not about age or the hair. It's about the fact that Lowen doesn't look anything at all different. Every last character in FE10 has a nice new updated look. I didn't see any FE9 mugs make their way in, clashing with other updated portraits, with a little edit here and there to make them look good. However in this project, there are clashes because some sprites are just copied over with little work, and then some are blatantly redrawn in a new way.

If you're on about the hair style, you're on about the wrong stuff. "Could you really say that Lowen has changed less than Kieran, Oscar, or Geoffrey did between FE9 and FE10?"

Well, yeah, we can say that he hasn't changed all that much compared to how much those three changed between the games. In FE9/FE10, each character was redrawn in the same style as the rest of the characters. In this project, there's not that solid transition--some are updated, some are just spliced edits. They contrast harshly

Comparing them side by side, there was a slight angle change, one is slightly brighter than the other, and in 12, Abel has a slight frown compared to a completely blank expression. But no one is clamoring about this, yet Arch and ALS are doing a poor job showing aging?

The sprites were all updated the same way, is the difference. The Lowen here--unlike the FE9/FE10 transition, this Lowen looks like a rough copy/paste.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Celice

[Book of Ereshkigal]

I rather like the grey armor, TBH.

[NICKT™]

Alright, so, taking into consideration the criticism of the armor color, Lowen's donning a new color on his suit of armor. I figure grey is the perfect color for Lowen, he's the epitome of 'plain' and 'mediocre.'

Everything else, however, will remain as-is. His hair shall not be cut, and there isn't much you can structurally do to his face to show age (talked to ALS about it). I think I'll write in some jokes about his hair, somewhat inspired by this whole silly little ordeal.

I'm picky, so;

._.

*shrug*

I just woke up, I'm tired, this will probably be my last post in this topic for a while. b_b

[Anouleth]

If you're going to direct a reply at me, you should realize it's not about age or the hair. It's about the fact that Lowen doesn't look anything at all different. Every last character in FE10 has a nice new updated look. I didn't see any FE9 mugs make their way in, clashing with other updated portraits, with a little edit here and there to make them look good. However in this project, there are clashes because some sprites are just copied over with little work, and then some are blatantly redrawn in a new way.

Yeah, that's because FE10 was on the Wii which was more powerful. Hence, all of the sprites were much more detailed. Whereas every sprite in this hack uses the typical GBA art style and graphics.

If you're on about the hair style, you're on about the wrong stuff. "Could you really say that Lowen has changed less than Kieran, Oscar, or Geoffrey did between FE9 and FE10?"

Well, yeah, we can say that he hasn't changed all that much compared to how much those three changed between the games.

So Kieran, Oscar, and Geoffrey all look basically the same only with better graphics and at a slightly different angle, and Lowen gets new facial hair and new armour, and Lowen is worse off? Please.

What you seem to want is not that any actual changes are made to Lowen, but just that he's redrawn. Well, sadly, Arch does not have his own art team who get paid for their work. He has to do with what people give him, and quite frankly, if I were a spriter and if Arch told me that he wanted a Lowen sprite that was exactly the same thing but at a different angle and with more detail, I would tell him to shove it up his ass.

In FE9/FE10, each character was redrawn in the same style as the rest of the characters. In this project, there's not that solid transition--some are updated, some are just spliced edits. They contrast harshly

There is no contrast. Every character in this hack has the same GBA style. There is not a massive difference between the new sprites and the old ones, or even close.

The sprites were all updated the same way, is the difference. The Lowen here--unlike the FE9/FE10 transition, this Lowen looks like a rough copy/paste.

Yeah, and that's what you get when Arch doesn't have the resources of an entire art team to draw upon so he can show the exact same thing at a slightly different angle. And even with IS, if you look at many of the sprites in FE11 and FE12, there are barely any changes at all (except to like, Marth).

[deranger]

Ninja'd by An

The sprites were all updated the same way, is the difference. The Lowen here--unlike the FE9/FE10 transition, this Lowen looks like a rough copy/paste.

So custom 60+ new mugs that look like FE7's cast, but put them in slightly different standing positions? It seems a lot like you know very little about mugging.

Basically, what're you recommending?

Grey armor Lowen looks good and better. I still want a yellow unit though.

Edited December 2, 2011 by deranger

[Celice]

Ninja'd by An

So custom 60+ new mugs that look like FE7's cast, but put them in slightly different standing positions? It seems a lot like you know very little about mugging.

Basically, what're you recommending?

Grey armor Lowen looks good and better. I still want a yellow unit though.

Apparently

It doesn't take redrawing every sprite if every sprite is not redrawn. But it does take a small amount of effort to show that the ears, hair, chin, angle, cheek line are all not exactly the same as the original mug (which they are, sans some slight shortening of some strands of hair). This is where you get that stone-image of Lowen, as if he was frozen and suddenly came back three years later. With a stubble. I'm guessing he has a rod stuck to his spine, 'cause in three years, he's stuck like that. Arch's canon

eah, that's because FE10 was on the Wii which was more powerful. Hence, all of the sprites were much more detailed. Whereas every sprite in this hack uses the typical GBA art style and graphics.

The GameCube can display images of the same quality. There's not a difference there.

if I were a spriter and if Arch told me that he wanted a Lowen sprite that was exactly the same thing but at a different angle and with more detail, I would tell him to shove it up his ass.

And if he said he wanted Lowen at the exact same angle with a little difference from the original, it's somehow better? Easier, yes, but that doesn't beget a better look.

There is no contrast. Every character in this hack has the same GBA style. There is not a massive difference between the new sprites and the old ones, or even close.

Compare Rebecca in this hack with Rebecca in FE7. That is a major update. Compare Lowen, and the armor shifting to gray is the only really big difference now :E Some characters are given these large, breathing updates which look great. Then you get Fiora, who... what was it that's different?

And even with IS, if you look at many of the sprites in FE11 and FE12, there are barely any changes at all (except to like, Marth).

And that was still pretty bummerific.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Celice

[Aethereal]

I'm a little confused. Nothing about any of the sprites in EN wouldn't fit in FE7, nor would they clash, and Lowen's sprite is no different. While every one else has already said that Arch doesn't have the resources for changes as miniscule as customs of the same characters, I don't think asking for those customs is anything but ridiculous when there are sprites that are already available that perfectly suit their characters. For the ones who have changed in some small ways (Like bulking up, and getting newer heavier armor, that also fits some one who is no longer a new recruit to pull a completely random example) they don't clash because they have some edits and others don't. Some people change in a few years, and others don't. Some things happen that warrant changes in the way you dress or which armor you would wear for some and not for others. A character like Eliwood, for instance, has a sprite that suits him perfectly fine in EN, whereas Lowen's or Rebecca's wouldn't.

This is where you get that stone-image of Lowen, as if he was frozen and suddenly came back three years later. With a stubble. I'm guessing he has a rod stuck to his spine, 'cause in three years, he's stuck like that. Arch's canon

Know what else is funny? How Eliwood's hair stays the exact same length from the start of his year long journey to the end . Or how Hector's sprite from 17 years after you first meet him has minor changes to show aging, and is a direct edit from his original sprite, using the exact same angle, and posture. The only difference: Hector's character has aged enough from 16->33 that he warrants those minor edits, like a normal person would. Lowen from late teens to early twenties would probably not have a significant change in physical features, which people have already pointed out.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Aethereal