Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 (edited) You may find these links helpful: Base + class growths for everyone: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://knetfe.nobody.jp/ikusei/menu.html&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhh2rivHelNT55BzrcGQDFN-oEzIvg Predicted growths for A, B, and C classes. This doesn't have predicted growths for male class limits removed, unfortunately. http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://wiki.gamerp.jp/fe/data/272.html&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhiMwm4kv5pRwtTUsDocgI6Vu7wk-Q http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://wiki.gamerp.jp/fe/data/273.html&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhj7JrjcKW9-_vVqmyMbSdMuwOvdNg http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://wiki.gamerp.jp/fe/data/274.html&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhhaob-wxN9VD0GEX2P55cG7JUmhsw According to the predicted growths, Minerva doesn't cap any stat in any of her classes, and generally just sucks. I just got Est and I am going to try leveling her, so help me god. Just gotta point this out. Hitting your caps by 20/20 means absolute shit on tier lists (except for radiant dawn). Hitting caps in general means shit. Growths don't mean anything either if you don't got the bases/weapon ranks/utility to get a good start. The tier player nine times out of ten is gonna prefer a unit with high bases but lower growths to a unit with no bases and higher growths unless that character joins early enough that it isn't a problem raising them. Minerva has good bases at join time and her growths are actually pretty decent. Great weapon ranks to boot. She supports two of the best units in the game. And she doesn't waste a seal to promote. Just because someone starts promoted doesn't mean they suck. Here check this link out below Mj. Should help you understand some of the jargon we are using here and help ya understand what we consider efficient strategy. http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=15777 - Tier Debating 101. Thanks dondon. Edited July 31, 2010 by Mr. Francis York Morgan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 It's still stickied in the general FE forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatgamecat Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 (edited) Just gotta point this out. Hitting your caps by 20/20 means absolute shit on tier lists. Hitting caps in general means shit. Growths don't mean anything either if you don't got the bases/weapon ranks/utility to get a good start. The tier player nine times out of ten is gonna prefer a unit with high bases but lower growths to a unit with no bases and higher growths unless that character joins early enough that it isn't a problem raising them. Minerva has good bases at join time and her growths are actually pretty decent. Great weapon ranks to boot. She supports two of the best units in the game. And she doesn't waste a seal to promote. Just because someone starts promoted doesn't mean they suck. Anyway, does anyone have the link to that tier debating 101 guide? I think Mj is gonna need it if he chooses to stick around. You haven't been reading my posts or my guide because I always consider weapon levels, bases, join time, growths, and everything that needs to be looked at. No need to make false and condescending presumptions when there is readily accessible evidence to the contrary. Not sure if you've played lunatic up to ch 12-14 but the wyrms and dragons there will eat her alive and whatever levels you get her from join time to 12 aren't going to help much because her growths are not worth replacing Catria, Sirius, Palla, Shiida, etc. with. Even if you level her up, she's not going to cap a single stat, and her bases are not impressive enough to pick up, unlike say Palla when she first joins. I'm pretty sure you haven't even played lunatic mode past the first few chapters because you'd realize the game throws so many master proofs at you that you'll just end up selling some of them for funds.. not taking up a master proof isn't exactly a compelling reason to use her. Looking at the predicted growths is more than 'hitting their caps', you can see how far over their caps they go, which means they'll be capping sooner and being useful earlier, assuming their bases are good enough to start using immediately. Edited July 31, 2010 by mjemirzian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 (edited) You haven't been reading my posts or my guide because I always consider weapon levels, bases, join time, growths, and everything that needs to be looked at. No need to make false and condescending presumptions when there is readily accessible evidence to the contrary. Not sure if you've played lunatic up to ch 12-14 but the wyrms and dragons there will eat her alive and whatever levels you get her from join time to 12 aren't going to help much because her growths are not worth replacing Catria, Sirius, Palla, Shiida, etc. with. Even if you level her up, she's not going to cap a single stat, and her bases are not impressive enough to pick up, unlike say Palla when she first joins. I'm pretty sure you haven't even played lunatic mode past the first few chapters because you'd realize the game throws so many master proofs at you that you'll just end up selling some of them for funds. Reclass. She has enough speed/durability to survive. Almost every Edit: GOOD character is getting 2 rounded so she is pulling even in durability. She has 21 base AS as a swordmaster and 34 hp/12 defense. Now as a swordmaster she has instant access to the wyrmslayer and the lady sword so lack of silvers doesn't hurt her to badly. Done. Edited July 31, 2010 by Mr. Francis York Morgan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatgamecat Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 Reclass. She has enough speed/durability to survive. Almost every Edit: GOOD character is getting 2 rounded so she is pulling even in durability. She has 21 base AS as a swordmaster and 34 hp/12 defense. Now as a swordmaster she has instant access to the wyrmslayer and the lady sword so lack of silvers doesn't hurt her to badly. Done. Not bad but her stats as a SM look like a poorer version of Palla. There's just not enough room on the roster for her from what I can see having played up to Ch 15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 Not bad but her stats as a SM look like a poorer version of Palla. There's just not enough room on the roster for her from what I can see having played up to Ch 15. That's why she is below Paola. No one is saying she is better than Paola. She isn't even close to paola and she never will be. But the deal is, Paola/Katua/My Unit cannot solo whole chapters alone. They need support and Minerva can obviously provide it in many different ways thanks to her good weapon ranks all around on top of decent bases/supports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatgamecat Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 That's why she is below Paola. No one is saying she is better than Paola. She isn't even close to paola and she never will be. But the deal is, Paola/Katua/My Unit cannot solo whole chapters alone. They need support and Minerva can obviously provide it in many different ways thanks to her good weapon ranks all around on top of decent bases/supports. Ok, that's cool. I'm just having trouble thinking of where to fit her in the already crowded roster of good units mid-game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 (edited) Just gotta point this out. Hitting your caps by 20/20 means absolute shit on tier lists (except for radiant dawn). Hitting caps in general means shit. Growths don't mean anything either if you don't got the bases/weapon ranks/utility to get a good start. The tier player nine times out of ten is gonna prefer a unit with high bases but lower growths to a unit with no bases and higher growths unless that character joins early enough that it isn't a problem raising them. Minerva has good bases at join time and her growths are actually pretty decent. Great weapon ranks to boot. She supports two of the best units in the game. And she doesn't waste a seal to promote. Just because someone starts promoted doesn't mean they suck. This isn't other FEs where hitting caps is often a nice bonus unless you really really don't want to use Royals vs. Ashera or whatever. The last dozen or so chapters (starting with Ch. 16 and the 24 Spd Heroes and 22 Spd Warriors) enemies are fast, strong, accurate, and have tons of HP, number in the dozens, all dangerously close to caps, with forged weapons that make Mercurius look like a wooden stick, crescendoing with Chapter 20's hellhole of flanking reinforcements and winding down with max Speed Zerkers/SMs/Sorcs and Dragons. You have so many Seals/Whips you'll probably end up selling about 7-8 of them. I would gladly spend 1250 gold to get a unit better than Minerva. Edited July 31, 2010 by Paperblade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 (edited) This isn't other FEs where hitting caps is often a nice bonus unless you really really don't want to use Royals vs. Ashera or whatever. The last dozen or so chapters (starting with Ch. 16 and the 24 Spd Heroes and 22 Spd Warriors) enemies are fast, strong, accurate, and have tons of HP, number in the dozens, all dangerously close to caps, with forged weapons that make Mercurius look like a wooden stick, crescendoing with Chapter 20's hellhole of flanking reinforcements and winding down with max Speed Zerkers/SMs/Sorcs and Dragons. You have so many Seals/Whips you'll probably end up selling about 7-8 of them. I would gladly spend 1250 gold to get a unit better than Minerva. Yea I knew how strong the enemies were. I knew they had ridiculous speed stats and near cap stats along with +8 forges we get to fight. If your whole point was that saving the player a master seal isn't worth the money saved then sure I agree with you. I didn't know we would be getting that many. I was gonna argue with you on Minerva's position to be honest. Just a few moments ago though I went and checked the growth rates on the few guys directly below her in conjuncture with the bases so now I'm not so sure. A few of them could probably rise up and surpass her as Heroes/Swordmaster. Specifically Cain, Frey, Roger, Nabarl. Repost the original post before you edited it if you can. You made some good points. Edited July 31, 2010 by Mr. Francis York Morgan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sploosh Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 If only Minerva could go Berserker... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 Yea I knew how strong the enemies were. I knew they had ridiculous speed stats and near cap stats along with +8 forges we get to fight. If your whole point was that saving the player a master seal isn't worth the money saved then sure I agree with you. I didn't know we would be getting that many. I was gonna argue with you on Minerva's position to be honest. Just a few moments ago though I went and checked the growth rates on the few guys directly below her in conjuncture with the bases so now I'm not so sure. A few of them could probably rise up and surpass her as Heroes/Swordmaster. Specifically Cain, Frey, Roger, Nabarl. Yes, they probably should go above her. Repost the original post before you edited it if you can. You made some good points. Meh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 Elleran should probably drop a little bit. He's a league behind Merric to be honest. He requires an Arms Scroll just to get his hands on Excalibur. Meanwhile, Merric can destroy Flying Dragons at base with Excalibur (and the Cancer Orb I believe) and, provided that you used him in Prologue obviously, he can even come out with C Tomes, so Elleran's minor advantage becomes insignificant. Then there's the minor "fielded" issue: Etzel can replicate what Merric can in regards to Excalibur at the very least, heal, and still pack a whallop with Elleran's Thoron tome. So pretty much arguing an Elleran drop. Arms Scroll can go virtually anywhere: Snipers for Silver Bows, any DracoKnights for auto-Silver or Dragonpike, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Deadly Sins Posted July 31, 2010 Author Share Posted July 31, 2010 Where would you drop him to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 (edited) He probably should be clusterbunched with the other growth units: Frey and co. Whether he's better or worse than them is another story. EDIT: Well I guess I haven't seen this list for a while. Almost thought last time Merric and Elleran were together, but my eyes deceived me. Hm, then I dunno, he probably should be bundled with those guys regardless. Edited July 31, 2010 by Colonel M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renall Posted August 1, 2010 Share Posted August 1, 2010 Why do I feel like you sound so butthurt over this fact? Apparently because you're an asshole. I'm not sure where you would get the impression that I was upset. That said, I do think it's a curious balance issue to be so handily dispensed with, but on Lunatic you really can't afford AS loss so perhaps Wt was removed so that they could make Lunatic as balls-hard as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Deadly Sins Posted August 1, 2010 Author Share Posted August 1, 2010 Take your argumentative bullshit elsewhere, I'm not putting up with it here. This isn't the "insult each other over mundane mechanics errata" thread, this is the tier list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatgamecat Posted August 1, 2010 Share Posted August 1, 2010 I've been looking at Rory's growths and I'm thinking he'd make a decent archer/sniper in line with hunter Draug, or an even better hunter than Draug if we're looking at mixed male classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deliriyum Posted August 1, 2010 Share Posted August 1, 2010 I've been looking at Rory's growths and I'm thinking he'd make a decent archer/sniper in line with hunter Draug, or an even better hunter than Draug if we're looking at mixed male classes. Draug is better in the long run as fighter/pirate, and is also very good as Cavalier, also Draug keeps his lance ranks as cavalier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted August 1, 2010 Share Posted August 1, 2010 Draug is better in the long run as fighter/pirate, and is also very good as Cavalier, also Draug keeps his lance ranks as cavalier. Rody has the same base Lance rank and has P-3 through 6 to build it (or his sword rank) up. Plus Draug is pretty bad in P-7 due to being doubled by armors. He has the same base Speed, so Draug's only big advantage is not needing as much EXP to survive as a Fighter in Chapter 1. However, Rody only needs to be Level 3-4 to survive (+1.6HP and +0.8 Defense gives him 25.6HP and 2.8 Defense as a Fighter, and at 4 he has 26.4 and 3.2). Additionally, Rody has the same Speed base but with 5 extra levels and a slightly better growth, meaning that once he catches up in durability, he'll be more likely to double. Keep in mind that as a Cavalier he just trades away 4HP for 4 Defense, so he's still being 2HKO'd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deliriyum Posted August 1, 2010 Share Posted August 1, 2010 (edited) lvl 3 Rody(cavalier): 22 hp, 8 str, 7 skl, 8 spd, 7 def, 7 lck. lvl 6 Draug(cavalier): 22 hp, 9 str, 5 skl, 11 spd, 7 def, 3 lck. 3 speed is a big difference and Rody isn't really ever going to catch that, the growth difference is too subtle. But, yeah they are very comparable. Lol Rody needs to go up. Edited August 1, 2010 by Core Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted August 1, 2010 Share Posted August 1, 2010 Oh. I was look at Skill for Speed. Yeah, that sucks for Rody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatgamecat Posted August 1, 2010 Share Posted August 1, 2010 In my non-mixed classes run, I was inclined to make Draug a hunter just because every other archer/hunter the game throws at you is slow as hell. I wanted a fast, reasonably strong bow user and Draug fit that better than anyone else the game hands you. Now if I could make Rory a hunter, he'd have better stats than Draug.. but unfortunately I can't do that this run. I don't see how Draugs growths as a cavalier make him anything special in particular, especially when he makes a good axe or bow user and you already get a boatload of good lance/sword users. Might as well leave the cavaliering to Palla, Shiida, Catria, Sirius, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deliriyum Posted August 1, 2010 Share Posted August 1, 2010 In my non-mixed classes run, I was inclined to make Draug a hunter just because every other archer/hunter the game throws at you is slow as hell. I wanted a fast, reasonably strong bow user and Draug fit that better than anyone else the game hands you. Now if I could make Rory a hunter, he'd have better stats than Draug.. but unfortunately I can't do that this run. I don't see how Draugs growths as a cavalier make him anything special in particular, especially when he makes a good axe or bow user and you already get a boatload of good lance/sword users. Might as well leave the cavaliering to Palla, Shiida, Catria, Sirius, etc. Draug kinda has a crap strength growth as a hunter, and the speed is just redundant. He's probably best as a fighter once he hits D axes. But cavalier is better sometimes because of mobility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatgamecat Posted August 1, 2010 Share Posted August 1, 2010 Draug kinda has a crap strength growth as a hunter, and the speed is just redundant. He's probably best as a fighter once he hits D axes. But cavalier is better sometimes because of mobility. Yeah I agree if I had access to mixed classes this run I would have made Rory a hunter and Draug a fighter for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deliriyum Posted August 1, 2010 Share Posted August 1, 2010 Yeah I agree if I had access to mixed classes this run I would have made Rory a hunter and Draug a fighter for sure. Draug can be a fighter. Knight is in the same class set as fighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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