H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[General Spoon]

Can I define Efficiency by:

- Maximizing EXP on the map without abusing turn counts

- Expending Gold equaly on Weapons/Arena depending on the character

- Recruting every unit and keep them Alive

- Get every possible droped item

?

Did I not already explain that efficiency is being measured by the turncount?

[Ether]

Might I ask why thieves/healers/MU go into unique utility tier,but Feena does not?Is it because we have a better hold on defining where she should be(top tier sounds about right,I'm just curious)

[riariadne]

Defining efficiency by turncount alone seems pretty dumb to me. It should be Total turns/ chapters visited. Being penalized for visiting a Gaiden chapter because it adds turns makes no sense, especially if good things can be obtained from said Gaiden chapter.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Might I ask why thieves/healers/MU go into unique utility tier,but Feena does not?Is it because we have a better hold on defining where she should be(top tier sounds about right,I'm just curious)

Touche. Any arguments against Xane/Feena into Unique Utility tier?

Defining efficiency by turncount alone seems pretty dumb to me. It should be Total turns/ chapters visited. Being penalized for visiting a Gaiden chapter because it adds turns makes no sense, especially if good things can be obtained from said Gaiden chapter.

I don't care how you define it, but we are not dicking around needlessly in a chapter.

As for the other point, any arguments against instituting a "Gaidens are assumed" rule?

Edited July 26, 2010 by Seven Deadly Sins

[riariadne]

That's not quite what I meant. I meant that skipping a Gaiden because it makes you have more turns total is a bad principle.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Lightning

[Seven Deadly Sins]

That's not quite what I meant. I meant that skipping a Gaiden because it makes you have more turns total is a bad principle.

I agree. I've never been advocating Gaidens being skipped for efficiency reasons. Playing the game efficiently means not wasting time needlessly to sit on your ass and do nothing. Actual gameplay elements such as gaidens obviously don't fall under this rule.

Question still stands. Anyone got any objection to having Gaidens assumed?

[Ether]

No objection here,although I haven't played Lunatic yet,so take my ideas with a grain of salt if you wish.

[dondon151]

That's not quite what I meant. I meant that skipping a Gaiden because it makes you have more turns total is a bad principle.

I agree. I would like to assume gaidens because I feel that skipping results in the player not playing the entire game. It's like purposely skipping out on a Starsphere shard just so you can end the game after defeating Hardin instead of having to trudge through Medeus.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I agree. I've never been advocating Gaidens being skipped for efficiency reasons. Playing the game efficiently means not wasting time needlessly to sit on your ass and do nothing. Actual gameplay elements such as gaidens obviously don't fall under this rule.

Question still stands. Anyone got any objection to having Gaidens assumed?

What was it that was on mekkahs fire emblem forum... Turncount/chapter ratio or some argument like that.

Just play the gaidens efficiently was the basic gist of it and they should be allowed. In one tier list you can have gaidens and in another no gaidens basically and it was nothing more than a guideline for tiering the characters. You prob read it yourself and I'm pretty sure dondon wrote it/advocated for it.

Anyway I say yea add them.

[Colonel M]

Navarre > Nabarl please. God I hate "Nabarl".

I'm going to look further into Wendell. Being the nth worst unit seems pretty harsh to me, then again I can understand his epic Spd doesn't do as many favors as it did back in Shadow Dragon land.

[Sploosh]

If Katarina is in Unique Utility, shouldn't guys like Etzel and Wendell move there too? I mean, their primary function is to be healbots 2.0 anyways while Excaliburing when needed.

The promoted magic users should be lumped together. Their place on here seems kinda ambiguous.

[fatgamecat]

I like Linde for the early game (I'm up to ch 10 right now, not sure how useful she will remain.. also I'm not playing with reclass limits removed). She's a fast ranged unit (55 base +15% spd) with nosferatu and shaver for the early part of the game where the other ranged units (archers/hunters) handed to you are slow and can only use steel bows at best. The only problem is her low MAG.

Now the situation might change when other competing mages come into the picture (Merric, Etzel) but she's not that worthless.

Also I'd like to know why people like etzel so much. Is there something special about the sorcerer class? It looks like he has pretty high def/res, but I'm not sure how useful that is for a ranged caster.. especially considering if he does get attacked he's sure to be doubled. Even if you get him to 20/20 he'd have 19 SPD on average assuming the dark mage growths are correct. Linde on the other hand would have 19 SPD on average at 20/0. Maybe once you start running into multitides of dragons his ability to take a hit is more important.

Edited July 27, 2010 by mjemirzian

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Etzel has Excalibur to do his dirty work. He's got solid bases, decent growths, and can Excalibur the shit out of anything that dares to have wings. He can also Starlight FWIW, I guess.

In fact, Excalibur is basically the entire reason that the male lolmagebots don't just end up in Free Silvers or UU.

Linde has a fairly meh earlygame IMO, though I guess Auranuking helps slightly.

I'd be willing to see Etzel down a bit, but I know people wanted to see him that high.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Seven Deadly Sins

[dondon151]

I like Linde for the early game (I'm up to ch 10 right now, not sure how useful she will remain.. also I'm not playing with reclass limits removed). She's a fast ranged unit (55 base +15% spd) with nosferatu and shaver for the early part of the game where the other ranged units (archers/hunters) handed to you are slow and can only use steel bows at best. The only problem is her low MAG.

Now the situation might change when other competing mages come into the picture (Merric, Etzel) but she's not that worthless.

The problem with Linde and her growths is that she's hard pressed to gain the EXP quickly enough to really pull the statistical lead. Consider that Linde basically provides for the player a free 19-22 HP damage to most enemies. Now, are you going to let her get kill EXP, or just combat EXP? Because logic dictates that her best use is chipping enemies down to KO range for 1 range allies. You don't grow very quickly by doing that.

I don't think any of the players who created this tier list has played the game with long term use of Linde in mind, so it's likely that we're not accurate in that respect.

[fatgamecat]

Well I haven't had a problem leveling her up, personally. I know people like to discount non-promotes when they are hard to raise because most tier lists are based on speed runs, though. I don't mind taking it a little more slowly as long as I still get a high ranking in the end. I've got her up to lv 17 by ch 10 (how you ask? she was doubling and ORKOing the generals in ch 8 lol) and I've been moving at a fairly brisk pace if you check my guide.. and no she isn't RNG blessed. She's at 17 SPD, just about average. I'm considering early promoting her because I seem to need 2 staff users for this chapter to rescue merric and kill both bishops in the first 2 turns.

it does suck that she can't use excalibur, though.. but isn't shaver pretty good too?

Edited July 27, 2010 by mjemirzian

[Deliriyum]

I think Linde should be moved up to below Rody or Maris. She's has a better damage output than any of your other chippers. Her durability isn't that much worse than Gordin's, they are both probably being 2RKO'd when they aren't being doubled. Linde really shines in 3x because she can do big damage to the AKs. Gordin can't say that. And continual use of both of them only makes it worse for Gordin. It all depends on how much Gordin's time he has before her matters.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Shaver is barely competing. You're looking at a difference of ~18 effective Might (39 vs. 21), though I'm not sure if that grants OHKOs on anything important by the time you get it.

[dondon151]

it does suck that she can't use excalibur, though.. but isn't shaver pretty good too?

You'd have to forge it for an Excalibur equivalent. It costs 16,500 G just to forge +6 MT on it...

[CO_Fimbulvetr]

I'd second moving Linde up to above Gordin. She might be really squishy, but the damage output of her instant Aura surpasses pretty much every non-effective weapon for some time into the game (except for perhaps Silver Lance users). Seriously if she had remotely decent durability I'd put her high, personally (ignoring the speed issue).

Basically, halving someone's HP with Aura > Steel Bow chip damage.

Edited July 27, 2010 by CO_Fimbulvetr

[Don Draper]

I also agree that she deserves to be above Gordin. At Base, she's chipping 25 Attack to res with Shaver against Dracos vs 7/0 Gordin's 35 to defense. There's a 6 def-res gap in Chapter 3 Dracos, and they both 2RKO regardless. Neither is taking a hit unless Gordin can proc speed in those two levels. From there, Linde's speed growth means that Gordin will be left in the dust while Linde becomes more and more useful. There's also Aura bombing, eventual healing, Starlight, she just seems like an overall much better unit then him.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Ari Gold

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Agreed. Was considering Linde to bottom of mid or top of Low anyway. I'll let you guys decide it.

[CO_Fimbulvetr]

Also to consider, Linde hits pretty much everything for six, where Gordin only gets that sort of power against fliers. She also has Catria levels of hax Skl/Spd/Lck growth, although unfortunately not the caps (or bases) to abuse that speed as much. Her durability might be bad, but early on there isn't much of a difference between what happens to her and Rody (the current low top) anyway.

[dondon151]

I also agree that she deserves to be above Gordin. At Base, she's chipping 25 Attack to res with Shaver against Dracos vs 7/0 Gordin's 35 to defense. There's a 6 def-res gap in Chapter 3 Dracos, and they both 2RKO regardless. Neither is taking a hit unless Gordin can proc speed in those two levels. From there, Linde's speed growth means that Gordin will be left in the dust while Linde becomes more and more useful. There's also Aura bombing, eventual healing, Starlight, she just seems like an overall much better unit then him.

First, there's no Shaver in chapter 3. Second, I would assume a +4 MT Steel Bow forge for Gordin, Ryan, and Warren to share in this chapter because at base level it brings each of them to within 3 HP of an OHKO on DKs (for Gordin, it's a clean OHKO on all DKs).

Linde also can't 2RKO in combination with Catria unless you manage to get her 2 str procs or a str proc and a Draug Lance. She can't 2RKO in combination with Draug because Draug probably doesn't have the AS to double nor the rank to use a Steel Axe. Unless you can find a way for a melee unit to do 16-17 HP damage in one shot (not even Silver Lance Arran comes close), Linde just doesn't have enough power, even with Aura, to weaken DKs. You're much better off deploying all 3 of Gordin, Ryan, and Warren in this map and forging a +4 MT or +5 MT Steel Bow.

You're also not deploying her in 3x. The slots are basically reserved for Arran, Palla, Catria, Bord/fighter MU, and Malliesia.

Edited July 27, 2010 by dondon151

[Rewjeo]

The biggest problem with Unique Utility is that you do get guys like Etzel who are good for both healing and fighting, and neither place is perfect.

Fine, if you want to keep "Free Silvers" then I'd like to argue Sedgar, Wolf, and Sheema out. All they need is a reclass to Sniper and they can all OHKO Flying Dragons at base with Parthia. It's not great, but it's something, and I can see it being more than Yubello and his... whatever they heck he does that isn't Free Silvers worthy.

[fatgamecat]

I'm going to have to contest the position Palla is in next to Catria. Mostly due to her 5 base SPD growth, or 30 SPD growth total as a pegasus, draco, or falco, assuming the class growths are the same as FE:SD. First, the averages. At 20/20, given 30 levels to grow from 10/0, she'll gain 10 points of SPD on average. That leaves her at 26/23 as a draco or 28/26 as a falco. EDIT: Fixed falco class cap.

Her SPD grows too slowly to keep up with the enemy as the game progresses. On average as a flier she'll gain a SPD point every 3 levels between 10/0 and 20/20. That means you have to get her to level 19/0 just to go from 16 to 19 SPD. Keep in mind that you'll probably be early promoting her which cuts further into her growth times. And class changing her is likely to produce ugly results as she'll be even slower. Turning her into a swordmaster? You have better SMs available like Luke, Catria, or even Sirius who will outpace her in growths despite his lower base stats, plus you need to use him for endgame, so he's hard to ignore. It's not like she has an 'RNG safety net' where if her SPD is a little below her average she'll still be usable. If she misses a point in SPD between 10/0 and 13/0, she is completely screwed when the 20 SPD dracos and wyrms start riding in on Ch 9 and 11 and double her into an early grave. She's like a flying general.

So what growths do you get for leveling such a poor SPD unit? 40 HP? Average. 50 STR? Good, but not enough to recommend her long term. 70 SKL? Overkill. 20 DEF? Average. 20 LCK? Among the worst in the game - who's ever heard of an unlucky pegasus knight? 10 RES? Average. Are those growths worth stuffing her with SPD boosters or save point reloading to proc SPD? Not in my opinion. Honestly, it seems to me like the developer missed a 0 in the SPD category and she was supposed to be 50 SPD. Color me unsurprised if she shows up in the NA version with 50 base SPD.

People praising her right now seem to be blinded by her good join-time bases and ability to use silver lances. While she is very useful early game, I consider her another Aran that doesn't grow well enough to meet the demands of the middle and late game. I'm considering bringing her for Ch 11 and looking at her 17 SPD as a draco and thinking that this just doesn't cut it compared to her competition.

So anyway, I'd say she's somewhere around high tier due to her early game usefulness, but it's silly to compare her to the godlike Catria.

Edited July 27, 2010 by mjemirzian