I dont care if everyone loves you or thinks you rock, I hate you and dont intend on ever using you!

[Radiant Dragon]

And yes, my Valtome hate was random. I was just listing the three characters that really get on my nerves.

Valtome deserves to be hated randomly. Although lumping Shinon and Makalov with him is kinda harsh...

[Narga_Rocks]

FE6:

Shin (If I ever play hard mode, I DO NOT want to get a ticket to Sacae.)

I don't think I even want to try out Ilia. I went to Sacae in both of my completed playthroughs (NM and HM) and will do so again if I ever finish that other playthrough. I just love it.

Of course, body ring Miledy with javelins and delphi shield doubling and sometimes actually hitting both shots + Sue and Shin both capable of ORKOing makes the Nomads kind of a joke.

FE9:

Oscar (I try and try to work with you, but you just won't cooperate)

He never does with me, either. Him and Boyd, actually. Every time I play I end up needing to drop them since they refuse to keep pace with their averages and this leads to problems if I want to use them.

Stefan (Your luck issues concern me. A lot.)

Me, too. I always constantly keep him out of danger, meaning anything that has crit on him he stays away from if that crit means death. And the one time I wasn't paying perfect attention to enemy ranges, a thunder mage crit-blicked him.

[Shadow Mir]

I don't think I even want to try out Ilia. I went to Sacae in both of my completed playthroughs (NM and HM) and will do so again if I ever finish that other playthrough. I just love it.

Of course, body ring Miledy with javelins and delphi shield doubling and sometimes actually hitting both shots + Sue and Shin both capable of ORKOing makes the Nomads kind of a joke.

Well, in my one completed playthrough, I DID go to Sacae, but I wouldn't think of going there on hard mode - it reeks way too much of video-game hell with the Nomads being mega annoying, Monke and Gel being annoying to the extreme to kill (and the number of characters who can double them can be counted on one hand, which doesn't help matters), and Sacae's two fog of war maps...

I'd be more inclined to give my Body Rings to a Pegasus knight, personally.

He never does with me, either. Him and Boyd, actually. Every time I play I end up needing to drop them since they refuse to keep pace with their averages and this leads to problems if I want to use them.

Yeah... It's just irritating.

Me, too. I always constantly keep him out of danger, meaning anything that has crit on him he stays away from if that crit means death. And the one time I wasn't paying perfect attention to enemy ranges, a thunder mage crit-blicked him.

Yeah... And It's not just Stefan - I tend to shun most characters with low Luck.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, in my one completed playthrough, I DID go to Sacae, but I wouldn't think of going there on hard mode - it reeks way too much of video-game hell with the Nomads being mega annoying, Monke and Gel being annoying to the extreme to kill (and the number of characters who can double them can be counted on one hand, which doesn't help matters), and Sacae's two fog of war maps...

Gel just takes a tad longer. He's no worse than any Berserker boss. In fact, some characters may actually avoid the 3HKO and being doubled given he only has 29 mt and 27 AS. Mainly Rutger, actually. His 27 AS annoys me a bit, though, but that just means you probably want to have Clarine near Rutger to increase the chance of a crit. And decrease the chance of getting crit. Or you could Shin him to death, I guess. I don't think Light Brand (indirect) can crit.

And Monke's actually quite slow. 24 spd, but Brave Sword and Brave Bow both have 12 wt and thus the poor guy only has 20 AS (he has 8 con). Rutger should easily have 24 by then, or Fir if you like raising her. 25, even, since killing edges give her -1 AS. I'd be more worried about the guys in 20x. 26 AS. Fir needs Wo Dao and capped spd to double with good crit, Rutger needs capped speed and either Wo Dao or Killing Edge.

Anyway, I just find Sacae more fun. Chapter 18 can be a tad annoying since reinforcements appear randomly, but it's not impossible to keep safe despite that. You can stay outside the circle until you are ready to assault the boss with help from Lalum in order to kill and seize in one turn and prevent any of those reinforcements appearing. Or simply block a couple of tents and position weak characters outside the range of the remaining tents.

And FoW is barely a hindrance. Just let Astohl and Chad use torch a few times. Covers a huge area. Frankly I find ballista more annoying, and Ilya has a lot more of those than Sacae. Sacae has 4 in the entire set, and they are pretty easy to deal with, too.

I'd be more inclined to give my Body Rings to a Pegasus knight, personally.

But then they can't rescue Dieck. I don't boost Peg con for that reason. Miledy loses the ability to carry almost nobody. Certainly nobody of particular importance. Her 10 aid promoted compared to 8 aid with the body ring makes minimal difference. The best unit that 10 Aid can rescue that 8 Aid can't is Echidna, but if you aren't putting the body ring on Miledy then Echidna is probably the next best option anyway. 11 Con at that point, so she's still not possible to rescue. Dayan, Karel, and Oujay I think are the only others that 10 can rescue and 8 can't, at least the only promoted units anyway.

Thany going from 15 to 13 or Tate going from 14 to 12 means no more Dieck drops. There's a few other units that can no longer be dropped, but none of those are of major importance either.

I give it to Miledy so that even before promotion she doesn't lose AS to javelins. 20 AS cap instead of 18 AS cap before promotion with Javelins, and 23 instead of 22 after. There are a lot of Nomads with 19 AS. Even Tate won't be strong enough to 2HKO Nomads with javelins, at least not until a huge level she can't possibly reach even by the end of 20xS. I just see little point in giving the ring to a Peg. They are fast enough with Killer Lances already. Even Thany only loses 4 AS anyway. 24 AS is still faster than Miledy's top speed. -5 AS from Silver Lances, thus tying Miledy's top speed.

[Anouleth]

Gel just takes a tad longer. He's no worse than any Berserker boss. In fact, some characters may actually avoid the 3HKO and being doubled given he only has 29 mt and 27 AS. Mainly Rutger, actually. His 27 AS annoys me a bit, though, but that just means you probably want to have Clarine near Rutger to increase the chance of a crit. And decrease the chance of getting crit. Or you could Shin him to death, I guess. I don't think Light Brand (indirect) can crit.

And Monke's actually quite slow. 24 spd, but Brave Sword and Brave Bow both have 12 wt and thus the poor guy only has 20 AS (he has 8 con). Rutger should easily have 24 by then, or Fir if you like raising her. 25, even, since killing edges give her -1 AS. I'd be more worried about the guys in 20x. 26 AS. Fir needs Wo Dao and capped spd to double with good crit, Rutger needs capped speed and either Wo Dao or Killing Edge.

Anyway, I just find Sacae more fun. Chapter 18 can be a tad annoying since reinforcements appear randomly, but it's not impossible to keep safe despite that. You can stay outside the circle until you are ready to assault the boss with help from Lalum in order to kill and seize in one turn and prevent any of those reinforcements appearing. Or simply block a couple of tents and position weak characters outside the range of the remaining tents.

And FoW is barely a hindrance. Just let Astohl and Chad use torch a few times. Covers a huge area. Frankly I find ballista more annoying, and Ilya has a lot more of those than Sacae. Sacae has 4 in the entire set, and they are pretty easy to deal with, too.

But then they can't rescue Dieck. I don't boost Peg con for that reason. Miledy loses the ability to carry almost nobody. Certainly nobody of particular importance. Her 10 aid promoted compared to 8 aid with the body ring makes minimal difference. The best unit that 10 Aid can rescue that 8 Aid can't is Echidna, but if you aren't putting the body ring on Miledy then Echidna is probably the next best option anyway. 11 Con at that point, so she's still not possible to rescue. Dayan, Karel, and Oujay I think are the only others that 10 can rescue and 8 can't, at least the only promoted units anyway.

Thany going from 15 to 13 or Tate going from 14 to 12 means no more Dieck drops. There's a few other units that can no longer be dropped, but none of those are of major importance either.

I give it to Miledy so that even before promotion she doesn't lose AS to javelins. 20 AS cap instead of 18 AS cap before promotion with Javelins, and 23 instead of 22 after. There are a lot of Nomads with 19 AS. Even Tate won't be strong enough to 2HKO Nomads with javelins, at least not until a huge level she can't possibly reach even by the end of 20xS. I just see little point in giving the ring to a Peg. They are fast enough with Killer Lances already. Even Thany only loses 4 AS anyway. 24 AS is still faster than Miledy's top speed. -5 AS from Silver Lances, thus tying Miledy's top speed.

Plus, Miledy is simply indestructible to Nomads with the Shield. Tate and Thany will always take some damage, with Tate at risk of getting crit (unless you use both and support them, but then you won't go to Sacae anyway).

[Shadow Mir]

Gel just takes a tad longer. He's no worse than any Berserker boss. In fact, some characters may actually avoid the 3HKO and being doubled given he only has 29 mt and 27 AS. Mainly Rutger, actually. His 27 AS annoys me a bit, though, but that just means you probably want to have Clarine near Rutger to increase the chance of a crit. And decrease the chance of getting crit. Or you could Shin him to death, I guess. I don't think Light Brand (indirect) can crit.

And Monke's actually quite slow. 24 spd, but Brave Sword and Brave Bow both have 12 wt and thus the poor guy only has 20 AS (he has 8 con). Rutger should easily have 24 by then, or Fir if you like raising her. 25, even, since killing edges give her -1 AS. I'd be more worried about the guys in 20x. 26 AS. Fir needs Wo Dao and capped spd to double with good crit, Rutger needs capped speed and either Wo Dao or Killing Edge.

Anyway, I just find Sacae more fun. Chapter 18 can be a tad annoying since reinforcements appear randomly, but it's not impossible to keep safe despite that. You can stay outside the circle until you are ready to assault the boss with help from Lalum in order to kill and seize in one turn and prevent any of those reinforcements appearing. Or simply block a couple of tents and position weak characters outside the range of the remaining tents.

And FoW is barely a hindrance. Just let Astohl and Chad use torch a few times. Covers a huge area. Frankly I find ballista more annoying, and Ilya has a lot more of those than Sacae. Sacae has 4 in the entire set, and they are pretty easy to deal with, too.

Gel has something like 80 evade on hard mode... I so do not want to have to deal with that. At all. No can do.

But I can't steal his Elixir, meaning unless I get super lucky and wipe him off the map in 1 turn, it's back to square one. And 20x Sacae? As if I needed any more reasons to avoid Sacae like the plague on hard mode, that just drives me up the wall and over the edge...

Personally, I'd lose my sanity if I were to even try to go there on hard mode - I find it that rage inducing.

FoW isn't that bad... unless there are siege tome mages hiding in it, that is. Then it's RAGE. And both Sacae FoW maps have those, which is even more annoying since Ellen aside, I can't think of anyone who can take Bolting strikes like they were nothing... And I don't really find ballistae that annoying for some reason - not as annoying as siege tomes for sure.

But then they can't rescue Dieck. I don't boost Peg con for that reason. Miledy loses the ability to carry almost nobody. Certainly nobody of particular importance. Her 10 aid promoted compared to 8 aid with the body ring makes minimal difference. The best unit that 10 Aid can rescue that 8 Aid can't is Echidna, but if you aren't putting the body ring on Miledy then Echidna is probably the next best option anyway. 11 Con at that point, so she's still not possible to rescue. Dayan, Karel, and Oujay I think are the only others that 10 can rescue and 8 can't, at least the only promoted units anyway.

Thany going from 15 to 13 or Tate going from 14 to 12 means no more Dieck drops. There's a few other units that can no longer be dropped, but none of those are of major importance either.

I give it to Miledy so that even before promotion she doesn't lose AS to javelins. 20 AS cap instead of 18 AS cap before promotion with Javelins, and 23 instead of 22 after. There are a lot of Nomads with 19 AS. Even Tate won't be strong enough to 2HKO Nomads with javelins, at least not until a huge level she can't possibly reach even by the end of 20xS. I just see little point in giving the ring to a Peg. They are fast enough with Killer Lances already. Even Thany only loses 4 AS anyway. 24 AS is still faster than Miledy's top speed. -5 AS from Silver Lances, thus tying Miledy's top speed.

The only real reason I use rescues is to get a unit in trouble out of trouble. At any rate, I don't employ rescues for transport nearly as often as you do. If only Savior (such an skill that one is) was in more FE games...

I consider it a small price to pay, personally, seeing as I don't really like Dieck that much...

Hmm... I'm not exactly keen on ranged weaponry other than magic and bows as far as FE6 is concerned - they're way too inaccurate.

[Narga_Rocks]

Gel has something like 80 evade on hard mode... I so do not want to have to deal with that. At all. No can do.

But I can't steal his Elixir, meaning unless I get super lucky and wipe him off the map in 1 turn, it's back to square one. And 20x Sacae? As if I needed any more reasons to avoid Sacae like the plague on hard mode, that just drives me up the wall and over the edge...

Rutger on enemy phase + player phase. Shin on player phase. Lalum to give one of them another go. It's not too bad. Plus you can chop off a few hitpoints before hand. They don't use Elixir when they still have a lot of hp. Not sure how low you can take him before he will, though. Or you could try injuring an enemy so that it steals the boss' elixir in order to heal.

The only real reason I use rescues is to get a unit in trouble out of trouble. At any rate, I don't employ rescues for transport nearly as often as you do. If only Savior (such an skill that one is) was in more FE games...

When using rescue for transport, saviour is irrelevant. The unit never gets attacked anyway. You should be dropping units before the rescuer gets attacked. Or it's like 8x where Thany is just taking them across the gorge. The things she drops are what get attacked. See also chapter 15 where you take a unit or two over the peaks and drop them on a mountain. Not to mention it means that Rutger and Dieck actually get to do something in long chapters like chapter 8. They'd be left in the dust so quickly without rescue. Then there is pulling rescue chains on Chad so that you actually get all the items in reasonable amounts of time in places like chapter 6.

I consider it a small price to pay, personally, seeing as I don't really like Dieck that much...

Dieck is epic, though. Not sure if you use any of the others. Unpromoted Thany can carry promoted Gonzo, for example.

Hmm... I'm not exactly keen on ranged weaponry other than magic and bows as far as FE6 is concerned - they're way too inaccurate.

Countering is better than not countering. Mages will die quick if you try to have them counter a lot. Sue and Shin supported can take 4 or 5 each, but they can't be everywhere. Particularly if you want them immune to crits. You are left with Miledy. With 60% true hit (I think she has more, though), consider that 36% of the enemies die, 48% of the enemies are brought down to less than half health, and only 16% of the enemies take no damage. You won't get better results than that with anyone but Sue and Shin. Miledy has a massive Skill stat.

Also, Dieck with Hand Axe will frequently pull 80+ hit. I think I've seen 100% on lance users. Particularly ones that are weighed down. The opportunity to have him just waltz through multiple enemies and kill more than two thirds of them is just too good to miss out on. Then there are things like Marcus early on with hand axe where he pulls 90+ hit on all those early game lance users. Marcus has a lot of skill for that point in the game.

[Shadow Mir]

Rutger on enemy phase + player phase. Shin on player phase. Lalum to give one of them another go. It's not too bad. Plus you can chop off a few hitpoints before hand. They don't use Elixir when they still have a lot of hp. Not sure how low you can take him before he will, though. Or you could try injuring an enemy so that it steals the boss' elixir in order to heal.

Isn't the bit about enemies taking healing items from other enemies something that's only in FE9 and FE10?

When using rescue for transport, saviour is irrelevant. The unit never gets attacked anyway. You should be dropping units before the rescuer gets attacked. Or it's like 8x where Thany is just taking them across the gorge. The things she drops are what get attacked. See also chapter 15 where you take a unit or two over the peaks and drop them on a mountain. Not to mention it means that Rutger and Dieck actually get to do something in long chapters like chapter 8. They'd be left in the dust so quickly without rescue. Then there is pulling rescue chains on Chad so that you actually get all the items in reasonable amounts of time in places like chapter 6.

Eh, I tend to take things slowly, so other than getting a unit out of danger, I don't really see much use for rescuing...

Dieck is epic, though. Not sure if you use any of the others. Unpromoted Thany can carry promoted Gonzo, for example.

I'm starting to wonder who you mean by "the others", but at any rate, chances are I don't bother with them...

Countering is better than not countering. Mages will die quick if you try to have them counter a lot. Sue and Shin supported can take 4 or 5 each, but they can't be everywhere. Particularly if you want them immune to crits. You are left with Miledy. With 60% true hit (I think she has more, though), consider that 36% of the enemies die, 48% of the enemies are brought down to less than half health, and only 16% of the enemies take no damage. You won't get better results than that with anyone but Sue and Shin. Miledy has a massive Skill stat.

Also, Dieck with Hand Axe will frequently pull 80+ hit. I think I've seen 100% on lance users. Particularly ones that are weighed down. The opportunity to have him just waltz through multiple enemies and kill more than two thirds of them is just too good to miss out on. Then there are things like Marcus early on with hand axe where he pulls 90+ hit on all those early game lance users. Marcus has a lot of skill for that point in the game.

I suppose we're talking about those nomads and their Short Bows?

With FE6's wonky RNG, I still can't help but feel that ranged weapons aside from magic and bows are unreliable...

[Narga_Rocks]

Isn't the bit about enemies taking healing items from other enemies something that's only in FE9 and FE10?

I don't think so. But even if so, I don't think he ever used the Elixir against me.

I'm starting to wonder who you mean by "the others", but at any rate, chances are I don't bother with them...

Anything with 14 or 15 con where Thany is concerned. Anything with 13 or 14 con where Tate is concerned. This is basically Dieck, Ward, Gonzo (before promo), Bors (before promo), Lott, Bartre, Garret.

Like I said, the main draws are Dieck and Gonzo.

I suppose we're talking about those nomads and their Short Bows?

What about Short bows? The Dieck thing is for all those mage enemies and bow enemies and whatever else you run into in other chapters. Dieck won't double Nomads unless you get really really lucky. Or I don't know what else you mean by that. Miledy basically makes them tink if she has delphi shield.

With FE6's wonky RNG, I still can't help but feel that ranged weapons aside from magic and bows are unreliable...

I don't see how it's wonky. I've never experienced problems. Stuff happens about what I'd expect. It's only unreliable if you remember the bad stuff and forget the good stuff. Let the enemy take a 20% swing at you enough times, if it doesn't hit you multiple times then something weird is happening.

[Shadow Mir]

I don't think so. But even if so, I don't think he ever used the Elixir against me.

I don't remember enemies trading with other enemies in the GBA games at all.

Anything with 14 or 15 con where Thany is concerned. Anything with 13 or 14 con where Tate is concerned. This is basically Dieck, Ward, Gonzo (before promo), Bors (before promo), Lott, Bartre, Garret.

Like I said, the main draws are Dieck and Gonzo.

Oh, those guys. I care about... Bors to some extent and that's about it. GBA fighters suck, Dieck fell out of my favor, and I hate Gonzo with the fury of an angry god (read: I don't have the patience for the likes of him, who are locked to axes and have crap for skill growth).

What about Short bows? The Dieck thing is for all those mage enemies and bow enemies and whatever else you run into in other chapters. Dieck won't double Nomads unless you get really really lucky. Or I don't know what else you mean by that. Miledy basically makes them tink if she has delphi shield.

Either way, I'd rather try to punt them on player phase than allow them the first strike (mages, especially, unless your name is Ellen, who can take hits from mages like they were nothing).

I don't see how it's wonky. I've never experienced problems. Stuff happens about what I'd expect. It's only unreliable if you remember the bad stuff and forget the good stuff. Let the enemy take a 20% swing at you enough times, if it doesn't hit you multiple times then something weird is happening.

Once, I had Alan take a shot at a sniper which he could double with an 80% hit rate, and he... whiffed. Both attacks. I hardly remember any wonky stuff like that happening in other GBA games...

[Xiltas Crysten]

FE7: Serra, Harken

FE8: --

FE9: Oscar, Titania, Shinon, Mia

[Anouleth]

Once, I had Alan take a shot at a sniper which he could double with an 80% hit rate, and he... whiffed. Both attacks. I hardly remember any wonky stuff like that happening in other GBA games...

That's because generally, hit rates are much higher in other GBA games. Take Alan against Sain. They have similar skill and luck, but all of Alan's lances have 10 less hit than all of Sains. Sains enemies also have lower speed and 0 luck. So the reason you don't remember an 80 missing twice (which is like, a 1 in 100 chance) in other GBA games is because you generally don't have 80 hit very often anyway, it's generally higher.

[Narga_Rocks]

Either way, I'd rather try to punt them on player phase than allow them the first strike (mages, especially, unless your name is Ellen, who can take hits from mages like they were nothing).

Um, enemies have so many hp in fe6 that you are not OHKOing without crits. So really they are getting a shot at you on player phase or enemy phase. At least if you take them on enemy phase first followed by player phase you then get 3 attacks before they hit you more than once. If you go player phase first, then anything that lives through player phase gets an extra shot on you for enemy phase.

Also, one guy can counter multiple 1-2 range enemies on enemy phase. It takes a lot more units to take out multiple enemies on player phase. It is just so much easier if you have 1-2 range countering ability.

Once, I had Alan take a shot at a sniper which he could double with an 80% hit rate, and he... whiffed. Both attacks. I hardly remember any wonky stuff like that happening in other GBA games...

Once? it's only happened once? How many times have you played any 2RN FE game? How many battles? How many 80% hit rates. It is going to happen at least once.

And if you complain about fe6's RNG, try playing fe5. I've had two 99%s miss. And the worst part is that in any other game those would have been 100% but fe5 has a minimum 1% and maximum 99% thing going on.

Now, missing two 99% in a 1 RN game is 1 in 10000. Play enough and it's going to happen eventually, and I think it only happened once. It's annoying when it happens, but you don't even tend to think about it the other 9999 times.

[Shadow Mir]

Um, enemies have so many hp in fe6 that you are not OHKOing without crits. So really they are getting a shot at you on player phase or enemy phase. At least if you take them on enemy phase first followed by player phase you then get 3 attacks before they hit you more than once. If you go player phase first, then anything that lives through player phase gets an extra shot on you for enemy phase.

Also, one guy can counter multiple 1-2 range enemies on enemy phase. It takes a lot more units to take out multiple enemies on player phase. It is just so much easier if you have 1-2 range countering ability.

True. However, if the enemy in question is a mage, I have my reservations about letting it get the first strike, what with so many FE6 characters practically being considered magefood... However, if they have Nosferatu, then that's an exception, considering the HP drain effect that spell has.

Also true.

Once? it's only happened once? How many times have you played any 2RN FE game? How many battles? How many 80% hit rates. It is going to happen at least once.

And if you complain about fe6's RNG, try playing fe5. I've had two 99%s miss. And the worst part is that in any other game those would have been 100% but fe5 has a minimum 1% and maximum 99% thing going on.

Now, missing two 99% in a 1 RN game is 1 in 10000. Play enough and it's going to happen eventually, and I think it only happened once. It's annoying when it happens, but you don't even tend to think about it the other 9999 times.

All I've been able to play recently is FE8 and FESD...

Edited November 9, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[dondon151]

Gel has something like 80 evade on hard mode... I so do not want to have to deal with that. At all. No can do.

Gel is not that hard. He has no chance of killing you from range because Light Brand sucks. Pull out your braves and what little +hit supports you might have and pound away at him. Henning trumps Gel in the frustration department.

FoW isn't that bad... unless there are siege tome mages hiding in it, that is. Then it's RAGE. And both Sacae FoW maps have those, which is even more annoying since Ellen aside, I can't think of anyone who can take Bolting strikes like they were nothing... And I don't really find ballistae that annoying for some reason - not as annoying as siege tomes for sure.

Fa can absorb Bolting all day long with a couple of levels on base. Gimmicky strategy aside, that's what Silence, Sleep, and Berserk are for. You also get Niime on that map (20S).

Anyway, you complain too much. Man up and deal with it. Use Shin, Sue, and Brave Bow Klein/Igrene and watch those nomads fall like dominoes.

Edited November 9, 2010 by dondon151

[Shadow Mir]

Gel is not that hard. He has no chance of killing you from range because Light Brand sucks. Pull out your braves and what little +hit supports you might have and pound away at him. Henning trumps Gel in the frustration department.

The one thing I'll give you is that Henning's frustrating. But you'll be hard-pressed to change my mind on anything else, because I'm just that obstinate.

Fa can absorb Bolting all day long with a couple of levels on base. Gimmicky strategy aside, that's what Silence, Sleep, and Berserk are for. You also get Niime on that map (20S).

Anyway, you complain too much. Man up and deal with it. Use Shin, Sue, and Brave Bow Klein/Igrene and watch those nomads fall like dominoes.

I just hate the Sacae maps - too annoying. So it makes sense that I'd avoid that place like the plague if I play hard mode. The nomads contribute to that hatred, and significantly, at that.

[Narga_Rocks]

The one thing I'll give you is that Henning's frustrating. But you'll be hard-pressed to change my mind on anything else, because I'm just that obstinate.

I at least am not trying to make you like Sacae more. I'm just telling you which of your reasons aren't based on fact. Disliking seige tomes more than ballista is perfectly fine. I love fliers for their ability to move people over annoying terrain and Ilya has a fair amount of annoying terrain. The ballista would be quite annoying for me. I didn't find the seige tomes in sacae that hard to deal with. dondon likes silence or sleep to deal with the pair in 20x. I remember using Warp for one playthrough. Not sure about my HM one. Possibly warp and one use of silence or sleep.

I just hate the Sacae maps - too annoying. So it makes sense that I'd avoid that place like the plague if I play hard mode. The nomads contribute to that hatred, and significantly, at that.

But our point is that with the right characters the Nomads become jokes. Seriously, how many enemies is Sue even capable of ORKOing? Not many, what with her strength (and Shin having Ice instead of matching her Wind or giving her Anima is really not helping that). But Sue can 2HKO and double with Silver bows. And has over 85 accuracy with a B Shin (I think) on enemies that most of your units have under 70 accuracy against. And since Shin actually has strength, with Sue support he can have over 90 with a killer bow and still 2HKO.

I think sticking a brave bow on Klein or Igrene isn't going to get you someone nearly that accurate, but they'll still do better than most. Of course, they'll get doubled, but if you support them so that they don't face crit then it's not so bad to be 3 rounded (level 9 Bartre Route Klein is, anyway, and level 8 Echidna Route Klein. Don't know how long it'll take him to those levels, though). Klein is probably fine with just a C Clarine in terms of enemy crit. Wait, that gives +1 def, so now you could probably decrease his level a bit and still only get 5HKOd (3 rounded if you are doubled). And of course some enemies don't get to double because he KOs with Brave before they get their second attack. And on player phase sometimes they don't even get to attack at all.

[Shadow Mir]

I at least am not trying to make you like Sacae more. I'm just telling you which of your reasons aren't based on fact. Disliking seige tomes more than ballista is perfectly fine. I love fliers for their ability to move people over annoying terrain and Ilya has a fair amount of annoying terrain. The ballista would be quite annoying for me. I didn't find the seige tomes in sacae that hard to deal with. dondon likes silence or sleep to deal with the pair in 20x. I remember using Warp for one playthrough. Not sure about my HM one. Possibly warp and one use of silence or sleep.

Well, I like fliers for the same reasons as you do. But I don't find ballistae as annoying as siege tomes because they can't move whereas siege tome carriers can (though that isn't the case in FE4). The silence/sleep/warp point is fair enough, but that brings up playstyle differences since I'm not exactly the type to use rare weapons if I can help it. And like I said, I just find siege tomes more annoying, especially in a game where so many units are sorely lacking in the resistance department. Fog of War does nothing to help that.

But our point is that with the right characters the Nomads become jokes. Seriously, how many enemies is Sue even capable of ORKOing? Not many, what with her strength (and Shin having Ice instead of matching her Wind or giving her Anima is really not helping that). But Sue can 2HKO and double with Silver bows. And has over 85 accuracy with a B Shin (I think) on enemies that most of your units have under 70 accuracy against. And since Shin actually has strength, with Sue support he can have over 90 with a killer bow and still 2HKO.

I think sticking a brave bow on Klein or Igrene isn't going to get you someone nearly that accurate, but they'll still do better than most. Of course, they'll get doubled, but if you support them so that they don't face crit then it's not so bad to be 3 rounded (level 9 Bartre Route Klein is, anyway, and level 8 Echidna Route Klein. Don't know how long it'll take him to those levels, though). Klein is probably fine with just a C Clarine in terms of enemy crit. Wait, that gives +1 def, so now you could probably decrease his level a bit and still only get 5HKOd (3 rounded if you are doubled). And of course some enemies don't get to double because he KOs with Brave before they get their second attack. And on player phase sometimes they don't even get to attack at all.

Well, that's true, but again, the mention of Silver/Killer/Brave Bows does bring up playstyle differences regarding what weapons one is likely to use (and I'm not exactly the type to use rare or special weapons in I can help it - legendaries included). Also (from my point of view at least), personal preference comes into play here - out of the characters named, Sue is the only one I'm even remotely likely to use, and as stated, she has Str problems.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[dondon151]

Klein has around, what, 73 displayed on nomads at --/5? He has some incredibly fast support options in Tate and Clarine, too. I had Klein with B Tate, B Clarine by 19S, which gives him 88 displayed when both are in range (as well as way more cev than he'll ever need) and effectively 35 HP, 14 def against 19-21 atk. Even with only one of his supports in range, he gets a significant boost. You shouldn't really be putting him up against NTs, though, because Brave Bow doesn't 2HKO them ever.

Anyway, yeah, the point is that Sacae is only frustrating if you try to chip away at everything with like, Steel Axes and Steel Lances.

Also, the game gives you rare but good weapons. What's the point in not using them? You might as well not have obtained them in the first place. I mean,

Edited November 9, 2010 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, that's true, but again, the mention of Silver/Killer/Brave Bows does bring up playstyle differences regarding what weapons one is likely to use. Also (from my point of view at least), personal preference comes into play here - out of the characters named, Sue is the only one I'm even remotely likely to use, and as stated, she has Str problems.

I'll give you Brave Bows. There's only one and it's rare, so it falls into your apparent qualms. However, you can buy however many Killer Bows you want in chapter 13 and you can buy a ton of Silver Bows in chapter 17 with the silver card. It's really no different from any other weapon except better. Even with buying a bunch of killer and silver weapons and buying some boots, robes, and I think a speedwing, I still managed to 5 star funds. While I can somewhat understand the desire not to use the truly rare stuff, not wanting to use Silver Bows and then having the gall to complain that Sacae is a pain (IMO as a result of not using good weapons) is just silly.

And Sue gets +1 atk from a B support with Shin. Her averages indicate that if she can double, she can 2HKO with silver. If she falls one below her average, that support will save her. Depending on her level she can even be 2 below and still pull it off.

And she doesn't actually have huge str problems, really. I'm more worried about getting spd screwed, actually. It's not that hard to 4HKO with a killer bow for most of mid game. Sure, it would be nice to have the ability to 2HKO, but if you can't then having 50+% KO rates isn't bad. And what do you have against Shin?

Edited November 9, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Shadow Mir]

Klein has around, what, 73 displayed on nomads at --/5? He has some incredibly fast support options in Tate and Clarine, too. I had Klein with B Tate, B Clarine by 19S, which gives him 88 displayed when both are in range (as well as way more cev than he'll ever need) and effectively 35 HP, 14 def against 19-21 atk. Even with only one of his supports in range, he gets a significant boost. You shouldn't really be putting him up against NTs, though, because Brave Bow doesn't 2HKO them ever.

Anyway, yeah, the point is that Sacae is only frustrating if you try to chip away at everything with like, Steel Axes and Steel Lances.

Also, the game gives you rare but good weapons. What's the point in not using them? You might as well not have obtained them in the first place. I mean,

Ok, but I'm not exactly keen on FE6 prepromos not named Percival or (in the case of earlygame) Marcus.

I don't use those weapons; I know I'm much better off with Iron Axes and Iron Lances, because not only are Steel Lances and Steel Axes heavy, their have garbage accuracy.

True, but Brave weapons are pretty heavy. And I can't really explain why I'm not willing to use special weapons... Well, other than Armads, which I have no one who can use anyway because I'm convinced that axes suck in FE6.

I'll give you Brave Bows. There's only one and it's rare, so it falls into your apparent qualms. However, you can buy however many Killer Bows you want in chapter 13 and you can buy a ton of Silver Bows in chapter 17 with the silver card. It's really no different from any other weapon except better. Even with buying a bunch of killer and silver weapons and buying some boots, robes, and I think a speedwing, I still managed to 5 star funds. While I can somewhat understand the desire not to use the truly rare stuff, not wanting to use Silver Bows and then having the gall to complain that Sacae is a pain (IMO as a result of not using good weapons) is just silly.

And Sue gets +1 atk from a B support with Shin. Her averages indicate that if she can double, she can 2HKO with silver. If she falls one below her average, that support will save her. Depending on her level she can even be 2 below and still pull it off.

And she doesn't actually have huge str problems, really. I'm more worried about getting spd screwed, actually. It's not that hard to 4HKO with a killer bow for most of mid game. Sure, it would be nice to have the ability to 2HKO, but if you can't then having 50+% KO rates isn't bad. And what do you have against Shin?

I suppose that's just me being conservative with rare weapons. But still, crit-happy nomads make me especially paranoid... And bosses that are a pain in the butt to off don't help matters, and two fog of war maps on top of all that jazz... What a huge pain. Even thieves do little to make me not feel that they're not that big a pain, since the FoW maps there have siege tome mages that're only too anxious to try to zap them out of existence... At least Ballistae are immobile.

I dunno why exactly I refuse to use Shin, to be honest. Though I will say that on my one completed playthrough, by the time I even recruited Shin, I already made up my mind that I was using Sue.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Anouleth]

Ok, but I'm not exactly keen on FE6 prepromos not named Percival or (in the case of earlygame) Marcus.

...

True, but Brave weapons are pretty heavy. And I can't really explain why I'm not willing to use special weapons... Well, other than Armads, which I have no one who can use anyway because I'm convinced that axes suck in FE6.

...

I dunno why exactly I refuse to use Shin, to be honest. Though I will say that on my one completed playthrough, by the time I even recruited Shin, I already made up my mind that I was using Sue.

Well, this is it. Obviously if you fail to use all of the resources available to you, the game will be annoying and difficult. It's like refusing to use ranged weapons and complaining about Chapter 12. Or refusing to use fliers and complaining about Chapter 14.

Now, I prefer Ilia just because it's prettier. And I prefer the Ilians in general to those stupid smelly overrated savages in Sacae. And also Sigune is badass.

[Narga_Rocks]

I suppose that's just me being conservative with rare weapons.

No it's not. It's you being way too frugal. Killers and Silvers are NOT rare in fe6. You can buy them. And you can buy a ton of them. Not using them isn't being conservative with rare weapons, it is being conservative with money. I say far too conservative.

I mean, this isn't even fe7 where if you don't get the secret shops you may miss the opportunity. The armories are right there. Plain as day. Use them.

Even early on before you reach chapter 13, chances are you only have Sue and Klein able to use the weapons. You get 2 Killer Bows (Echidna route, anyway) and are probably not going to manage to break them even with extensive use. I know I never broke them before chapter 13 and as soon as Sue got a C Bows it was almost the only weapon she ever used. Only exception was if she doubled with the 5 wt Iron but not the 7 wt Killer and I thought the guaranteed extra damage would be more useful than the better chance at a crit.

Shin takes long enough to reach C bows and by then his stats are often enough to double with Steel or do good damage with Iron. Since I keep them together he borrowed a killer bow a few times but not all that often. You have 40 uses of Killer Bow until the end of chapter 13. Not using them by then if you have bow users is equivalent to intentionally making your bow users worse for no good reason.

But still, crit-happy nomads make me especially paranoid... And bosses that are a pain in the butt to off don't help matters,

But they aren't crit-happy if you use the right supports and characters to deal with them. In fact, of the four arguably best units in Sacae maps (Sue, Shin, Klein, Miledy), three of them have full cev boosting supports and reasonably quick B supports for +10 cev, and the 4th one with a Delphi Shield takes 0 damage. 0x3 = 0. Who cares if she gets criticaled?

And the bosses are no more of a pain than some of the early game bosses. Praying for a Rutger crit on bosses in early game compared to praying for a Rutger crit on bosses in Sacae? Only difference is that Rutger now has a B Clarine (maybe A) and +30 crit from being a swordmaster. Oh, and since you can have lots of Killing Edges you don't have to care so much if he fails to crit.

and two fog of war maps on top of all that jazz... What a huge pain. Even thieves do little to make me not feel that they're not that big a pain, since the FoW maps there have siege tome mages that're only too anxious to try to zap them out of existence... At least Ballistae are immobile.

So kill/silence one siege tome mage and Astohl can tank the other. Or something. Besides, thieves with torches have such a huge range in certain fow maps in this game that it doesn't even matter if they have to stay out of range of the siege tome guys for a few turns. They'll still light up a massive area for you.

I dunno why exactly I refuse to use Shin, to be honest. Though I will say that on my one completed playthrough, by the time I even recruited Shin, I already made up my mind that I was using Sue.

Um, neither Sue nor Shin will ever be as good alone as if you are using both. The support (at least where Sacae is concerned) is just way too useful. +10 hit and +10 cev is just amazing for Sacae. +1 def and +1 atk and +5 avo and +5 crit are less useful, and less important, but the little bit of atk can sometimes make the difference between 2HKO and 3HKO (or in the case of Nomad Troopers and Sue using a Killer Bow, 4HKO and 5HKO maybe, not sure). And the little bit of def could sometimes change the #RKO that Sue or Shin face.

Using one without the other in Sacae is kinda like using Alan but not Lance, or the reverse. Sadly Sue isn't nearly as good as Shin throughout the game so there can be reasons not to use her, but as far as Shin's performance in Sacae with Sue compared to without (or hers with him compared to hers without him) it's quite different. Instead of facing 6 to 9 % crit against and constantly having to limit his exposure in case 1 of 3 enemies crit him you no longer have to worry at all. Those two were practically unkillable last time I went around Sacae with them.

um, and I'd say this is off-topic except it kinda isn't. I say Shin rocks and he says he doesn't use him. That's kind of on topic. First post never said we couldn't discuss units on people's list.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Shadow Mir]

Well, this is it. Obviously if you fail to use all of the resources available to you, the game will be annoying and difficult. It's like refusing to use ranged weapons and complaining about Chapter 12. Or refusing to use fliers and complaining about Chapter 14.

Whatever point you hoped to make by mentioning chapter 14 went entirely over my head, since I consider that chapter to be more than bad enough even with flying units...

No it's not. It's you being way too frugal. Killers and Silvers are NOT rare in fe6. You can buy them. And you can buy a ton of them. Not using them isn't being conservative with rare weapons, it is being conservative with money. I say far too conservative.

I mean, this isn't even fe7 where if you don't get the secret shops you may miss the opportunity. The armories are right there. Plain as day. Use them.

Even early on before you reach chapter 13, chances are you only have Sue and Klein able to use the weapons. You get 2 Killer Bows (Echidna route, anyway) and are probably not going to manage to break them even with extensive use. I know I never broke them before chapter 13 and as soon as Sue got a C Bows it was almost the only weapon she ever used. Only exception was if she doubled with the 5 wt Iron but not the 7 wt Killer and I thought the guaranteed extra damage would be more useful than the better chance at a crit.

Shin takes long enough to reach C bows and by then his stats are often enough to double with Steel or do good damage with Iron. Since I keep them together he borrowed a killer bow a few times but not all that often. You have 40 uses of Killer Bow until the end of chapter 13. Not using them by then if you have bow users is equivalent to intentionally making your bow users worse for no good reason.

I'm just hesitant to use them unless the situation calls for it.

But they aren't crit-happy if you use the right supports and characters to deal with them. In fact, of the four arguably best units in Sacae maps (Sue, Shin, Klein, Miledy), three of them have full cev boosting supports and reasonably quick B supports for +10 cev, and the 4th one with a Delphi Shield takes 0 damage. 0x3 = 0. Who cares if she gets criticaled?

And the bosses are no more of a pain than some of the early game bosses. Praying for a Rutger crit on bosses in early game compared to praying for a Rutger crit on bosses in Sacae? Only difference is that Rutger now has a B Clarine (maybe A) and +30 crit from being a swordmaster. Oh, and since you can have lots of Killing Edges you don't have to care so much if he fails to crit.

And out of those four, Sue and Miledy are the only ones I'm even likely to use.

And I wouldn't be using Rutger against chapter 5's boss, since I don't like going into CQC against bosses with high critical chances...

So kill/silence one siege tome mage and Astohl can tank the other. Or something. Besides, thieves with torches have such a huge range in certain fow maps in this game that it doesn't even matter if they have to stay out of range of the siege tome guys for a few turns. They'll still light up a massive area for you.

True, but why would I want to use Astol to tank any long-range magic???

Um, neither Sue nor Shin will ever be as good alone as if you are using both. The support (at least where Sacae is concerned) is just way too useful. +10 hit and +10 cev is just amazing for Sacae. +1 def and +1 atk and +5 avo and +5 crit are less useful, and less important, but the little bit of atk can sometimes make the difference between 2HKO and 3HKO (or in the case of Nomad Troopers and Sue using a Killer Bow, 4HKO and 5HKO maybe, not sure). And the little bit of def could sometimes change the #RKO that Sue or Shin face.

Using one without the other in Sacae is kinda like using Alan but not Lance, or the reverse. Sadly Sue isn't nearly as good as Shin throughout the game so there can be reasons not to use her, but as far as Shin's performance in Sacae with Sue compared to without (or hers with him compared to hers without him) it's quite different. Instead of facing 6 to 9 % crit against and constantly having to limit his exposure in case 1 of 3 enemies crit him you no longer have to worry at all. Those two were practically unkillable last time I went around Sacae with them.

True. Though Shin would be the one who benefits more from the CEV, with his lacking Luck (unless Sue gets Luck screwed to the point that Radiant Dragon had her get Luck screwed in his draft)...

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm just hesitant to use them unless the situation calls for it.

Killing vs. Not Killing. To me, with virtually unlimited use weapons (due to easy purchasability), that's enough reason to use the things.

And out of those four, Sue and Miledy are the only ones I'm even likely to use.

You know, there's a reason that Sacae is a pain for you and not for me.

And I wouldn't be using Rutger against chapter 5's boss, since I don't like going into CQC against bosses with high critical chances...

Killing edge can be used by more than him. I suppose I should have said "Killing Edge Crit", it's just that in many chapters Rutger is best for it since he doubles and Dieck/Marcus/Zealot won't.

Besides, for the chapter 5 boss I just make him use his hand axe then waltz in with sword users trading around the killing edge and using Rescuing to get multiple attacks a turn and make sure he can't Killing Axe anybody on enemy phase if he lives that long. Seems to work out alright, and he has 3 or 4 crit against guys that all have >3 luck. 0% crit rate. Even Rutger (HM) might have that. 3.5 Luck at base level and a 30% growth. Decent chance, anyway. For Rutger to even face 1% crit, first he has to proc 3, then he has to not proc 4 on any levels he gets with his 30% luck stat, then the boss has to manage 8 skill instead of 7 skill in order to even have 4 crit, and then Rutger has to actually get criticaled by that 1% crit. We are looking at really really low CODs here.

(btw, boss appears to be given 12 levels of Brigand for HM, based on the HM boss stats given by Vincent and the NM boss stats. 12 levels with a 30% skill growth is 3.6, so he has 7.6 skill, basically, and needs that to round up while Rutger's 3.5 rounds down)

True, but why would I want to use Astol to tank any long-range magic???

Because if he is able to move into range of the long range magic users without fear of death then he is able to light up an area deeper into the chapter? Duh? Enemy mages sometimes like targeting thieves, so if you want to light up a nice area you kinda have to allow that.

I only mentioned him by name since unless you go and train Chad for some odd reason, he's facing a OHKO from all the long range magic users in Sacae. Astohl at least starts with 25 hp, 3 res, and can be given +7 by barrier/pure water. I really don't think anything in Sacae has more than 34 atk with long range magic. Also, Cath has 20 hp and 2.8 res, so since that's usually 23 she can take anything up to 29 if she has a pure water.

Anyway, the best units for tanking a long range magic attack are the ones that you aren't going to be fighting stuff with (so the hp loss doesn't matter), or the units that take so little damage it doesn't matter, or the units that are virtually guaranteed to avoid the attack. Astohl falls into the first category, and you don't really have a choice of putting him into range or not if you want him lighting up an area.

Astohl tanking the long range mage was very much not the point you were supposed to be focusing on in that quote. Think a little before responding, please? You said:

"Even thieves do little to make me not feel that they're not that big a pain, since the FoW maps there have siege tome mages that're only too anxious to try to zap them out of existence"

And I'm telling you, no, the siege tome mages are NOT going to be able to "zap them out of existence" as long as you don't suck. And you come and respond with "why would I want to use Astol to tank any long-range magic?" What the hell is up with that?

True. Though Shin would be the one who benefits more from the CEV, with his lacking Luck (unless Sue gets Luck screwed to the point that Radiant Dragon had her get Luck screwed in his draft)...

Sue benefits a lot, too, though. Did you even look at their averages?

20/1 Shin on HM has 12.15 luck with a 25% growth.

20/1 Sue has 13.5 luck with a 50% growth.

Now, yes, Shin benefits (slightly) more, like you said. But against 18 crit, Shin faces 6% and Sue faces 4%, on a good day. Do you really want to constantly roll that die? You'll get unlucky eventually. Even a few levels down the road, she's not turning that into 0% crit without a support. It's not like she's going to be able to support Wolt or Fa or Roy any time soon with a 1+1 support.

Basically, sure, 4% is better than 6%, so he benefits "more", but considering how much she benefits I don't think it matters much just who benefits more. The point is that they both benefit a lot. Instead of limiting their exposure to only one or two enemies per turn out of fear of death, you can expose them to 4 or 5 whenever you feel like it with no chance of death. I see that as a great improvement.