I dont care if everyone loves you or thinks you rock, I hate you and dont intend on ever using you!

[Anouleth]

Whatever point you hoped to make by mentioning chapter 14 went entirely over my head, since I consider that chapter to be more than bad enough even with flying units...

My point is that if someone refuses to use flying units, they cannot then complain that the map is annoying or difficult or unfair because they are the one making it difficult for themselves. While it's true that Chapter 14 is annoying even with fliers, it's a nightmare with no fliers at all.

[Shadow Mir]

Killing vs. Not Killing. To me, with virtually unlimited use weapons (due to easy purchasability), that's enough reason to use the things.

Well, I have a tendency to save them for use on things I really want to see dead.

You know, there's a reason that Sacae is a pain for you and not for me.

.........

I don't really have anything to say about this.

Killing edge can be used by more than him. I suppose I should have said "Killing Edge Crit", it's just that in many chapters Rutger is best for it since he doubles and Dieck/Marcus/Zealot won't.

Besides, for the chapter 5 boss I just make him use his hand axe then waltz in with sword users trading around the killing edge and using Rescuing to get multiple attacks a turn and make sure he can't Killing Axe anybody on enemy phase if he lives that long. Seems to work out alright, and he has 3 or 4 crit against guys that all have >3 luck. 0% crit rate. Even Rutger (HM) might have that. 3.5 Luck at base level and a 30% growth. Decent chance, anyway. For Rutger to even face 1% crit, first he has to proc 3, then he has to not proc 4 on any levels he gets with his 30% luck stat, then the boss has to manage 8 skill instead of 7 skill in order to even have 4 crit, and then Rutger has to actually get criticaled by that 1% crit. We are looking at really really low CODs here.

(btw, boss appears to be given 12 levels of Brigand for HM, based on the HM boss stats given by Vincent and the NM boss stats. 12 levels with a 30% skill growth is 3.6, so he has 7.6 skill, basically, and needs that to round up while Rutger's 3.5 rounds down)

I prefer pecking them down with ranged attacks while they don't have their range weapon ready for action, rescuing and dropping afterwards so they don't get a chance to attack - especially against berserkers.

Because if he is able to move into range of the long range magic users without fear of death then he is able to light up an area deeper into the chapter? Duh? Enemy mages sometimes like targeting thieves, so if you want to light up a nice area you kinda have to allow that.

I only mentioned him by name since unless you go and train Chad for some odd reason, he's facing a OHKO from all the long range magic users in Sacae. Astohl at least starts with 25 hp, 3 res, and can be given +7 by barrier/pure water. I really don't think anything in Sacae has more than 34 atk with long range magic. Also, Cath has 20 hp and 2.8 res, so since that's usually 23 she can take anything up to 29 if she has a pure water.

Anyway, the best units for tanking a long range magic attack are the ones that you aren't going to be fighting stuff with (so the hp loss doesn't matter), or the units that take so little damage it doesn't matter, or the units that are virtually guaranteed to avoid the attack. Astohl falls into the first category, and you don't really have a choice of putting him into range or not if you want him lighting up an area.

Astohl tanking the long range mage was very much not the point you were supposed to be focusing on in that quote. Think a little before responding, please? You said:

"Even thieves do little to make me not feel that they're not that big a pain, since the FoW maps there have siege tome mages that're only too anxious to try to zap them out of existence"

And I'm telling you, no, the siege tome mages are NOT going to be able to "zap them out of existence" as long as you don't suck. And you come and respond with "why would I want to use Astol to tank any long-range magic?" What the hell is up with that?

Never really thought about it...

Sue benefits a lot, too, though. Did you even look at their averages?

20/1 Shin on HM has 12.15 luck with a 25% growth.

20/1 Sue has 13.5 luck with a 50% growth.

Now, yes, Shin benefits (slightly) more, like you said. But against 18 crit, Shin faces 6% and Sue faces 4%, on a good day. Do you really want to constantly roll that die? You'll get unlucky eventually. Even a few levels down the road, she's not turning that into 0% crit without a support. It's not like she's going to be able to support Wolt or Fa or Roy any time soon with a 1+1 support.

Basically, sure, 4% is better than 6%, so he benefits "more", but considering how much she benefits I don't think it matters much just who benefits more. The point is that they both benefit a lot. Instead of limiting their exposure to only one or two enemies per turn out of fear of death, you can expose them to 4 or 5 whenever you feel like it with no chance of death. I see that as a great improvement.

Sue's luck isn't that great? Pah... I thought Sue's luck was better than that. *notices Sue's 4 luck base*

[Anouleth]

Well, I have a tendency to save them for use on things I really want to see dead.

But Narga's point is that you don't need to 'save' them. You can use them on everything and not run out because you have enough money to do so.

[Galenforcer]

Umm , you guys should probably move this discussion somewhere else. The topic's starting to lose it's meaning.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, I have a tendency to save them for use on things I really want to see dead.

Um, you do realize that you can buy so many of the bloody things that you can use them on EVERYTHING, right?

Seriously, once I reach chapter 13 the only time Sue doesn't have either a Killer Bow or a Silver Bow in her hands is if she's using an actually rare weapon (Brave Bow, Murgleis, Longbow is rare until chapter 23) or if she will kill the enemy with Iron anyway. Seriously, aside from Steel Swords and the occasional Steel Bow hit, I don't actually use anything "Steel" in this game. Steel Swords are actually good (don't slow you down too much and 70+10 is quite accurate on bandits) and Steel Bows are there for when Sue doesn't double with Iron or for Shin before he gets to C rank. I don't even buy any Steel Lances or Steel Axes or Steel Bows (the one you get automatically from Dorothy is enough to tide you over until you can buy Killers). Especially Steel Axes, considering I go Echidna route and thus have Killer Axes available in chapter 11. Killer is superior to Steel in every single (important) way in this game. Same or better mt, less wt, more hit, and gives crit. There's really no point in using Steel most of the time. And Iron vs. Killer is a blowout for mt, and most killers even have the same/more hit than iron (axes and bows tie, killer lance has 5 more hit, killing edge has 5 less).

I don't see why you need to save them for things that you "really want to see dead" when you can simply pull them out for everything.

(Similarly, I use Aircalibur on virtually everything once Lugh has B Anima and I can buy them)

I prefer pecking them down with ranged attacks while they don't have their range weapon ready for action, rescuing and dropping afterwards so they don't get a chance to attack - especially against berserkers.

Except chapter 5 is a Brigand, not a Berserker, and there are no +30 crit weapons at 2 range. It is one heck of a lot faster to beat them down at one range (since you can crit more), and taking a couple of counters in order to do it is no big deal. You have healers for a reason. Use them if it becomes necessary.

Sue's luck isn't that great? Pah... I thought Sue's luck was better than that. *notices Sue's 4 luck base*

Maybe you were thinking of Clarine's 20.35 luck at 20/1? Now she's one that doesn't need a support if you got her up to ~level 18 before promoting her.

Umm , you guys should probably move this discussion somewhere else. The topic's starting to lose it's meaning.

possibility a:

nobody else has anything to say on the original subject so it doesn't matter

possibility b:

this conversation is somehow preventing other people from posting (which doesn't really make sense)

possibility c:

whatever I missed

If people want to state who they hate or don't intend on using, go ahead.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Shadow Mir]

Um, you do realize that you can buy so many of the bloody things that you can use them on EVERYTHING, right?

Seriously, once I reach chapter 13 the only time Sue doesn't have either a Killer Bow or a Silver Bow in her hands is if she's using an actually rare weapon (Brave Bow, Murgleis, Longbow is rare until chapter 23) or if she will kill the enemy with Iron anyway. Seriously, aside from Steel Swords and the occasional Steel Bow hit, I don't actually use anything "Steel" in this game. Steel Swords are actually good (don't slow you down too much and 70+10 is quite accurate on bandits) and Steel Bows are there for when Sue doesn't double with Iron or for Shin before he gets to C rank. I don't even buy any Steel Lances or Steel Axes or Steel Bows (the one you get automatically from Dorothy is enough to tide you over until you can buy Killers). Especially Steel Axes, considering I go Echidna route and thus have Killer Axes available in chapter 11. Killer is superior to Steel in every single (important) way in this game. Same or better mt, less wt, more hit, and gives crit. There's really no point in using Steel most of the time. And Iron vs. Killer is a blowout for mt, and most killers even have the same/more hit than iron (axes and bows tie, killer lance has 5 more hit, killing edge has 5 less).

I don't see why you need to save them for things that you "really want to see dead" when you can simply pull them out for everything.

I know that.

I don't bother with Steel Axes and Steel Lances either, honestly. And Longbows? I don't see them as that useful other than in Shadow Dragon, because otherwise, they're suffering from crappy MT (GBA games, PoR) and/or poor accuracy (all FEs but SD).

Uhhh... An old habit, I guess? Old habits can be hard to break.

(Similarly, I use Aircalibur on virtually everything once Lugh has B Anima and I can buy them)

In all honesty, I had Lilina and Clarine spamming Aircalibur left and right as well.

Except chapter 5 is a Brigand, not a Berserker, and there are no +30 crit weapons at 2 range. It is one heck of a lot faster to beat them down at one range (since you can crit more), and taking a couple of counters in order to do it is no big deal. You have healers for a reason. Use them if it becomes necessary.

Well... you know, better safe than sorry, because hey, I've had more than my fair share of run-ins with Murphy's Law...

Maybe you were thinking of Clarine's 20.35 luck at 20/1? Now she's one that doesn't need a support if you got her up to ~level 18 before promoting her.

Uhhh... I suppose I was.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't bother with Steel Axes and Steel Lances either, honestly. And Longbows? I don't see them as that useful other than in Shadow Dragon, because otherwise, they're suffering from crappy MT (GBA games, PoR) and/or poor accuracy (all FEs but SD).

I only use Longbow on those enemies that are completely enclosed and impossible to reach any other way. Think Bolting guy that starts near the bottom right in chapter 16. You aren't killing him on turn 1 without Shin using Longbow, basically. Well, I guess another option is when Shin's move just isn't enough without pulling out Longbow and I really want something to feel pain, but that's rare. The first time I played through (NM) I used Longbow way too much and it was broken when I really wanted it (Bolting guy in 16x) so I am actually conservative with its use now and restrict it to the above. I almost never use it merely to avoid counters.

Well... you know, better safe than sorry, because hey, I've had more than my fair share of run-ins with Murphy's Law...

0% COD that is faster compared to 0% COD that is slower. What can Murphy's Law do if it is literally impossible to die while doing it my way?

[Shadow Mir]

I only use Longbow on those enemies that are completely enclosed and impossible to reach any other way. Think Bolting guy that starts near the bottom right in chapter 16. You aren't killing him on turn 1 without Shin using Longbow, basically. Well, I guess another option is when Shin's move just isn't enough without pulling out Longbow and I really want something to feel pain, but that's rare. The first time I played through (NM) I used Longbow way too much and it was broken when I really wanted it (Bolting guy in 16x) so I am actually conservative with its use now and restrict it to the above. I almost never use it merely to avoid counters.

As for Bolting and 16x, I guess you're referring to the one in the center of the map? Though I think there are more Boltings in that chapter, that'd be the one that worries me the most.

0% COD that is faster compared to 0% COD that is slower. What can Murphy's Law do if it is literally impossible to die while doing it my way?

Make you get hit while facing low hit rates? Hey, I've had Eirika get hit by an 8% chance attack and again by a 10% chance attack, both in the same chapter (different game, but still).

On a side note, I took a look at supports, and the only fast supports the nomads have are with each other >_>

Edited November 11, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Narga_Rocks]

As for Bolting and 16x, I guess you're referring to the one in the center of the map? Though I think there are more Boltings in that chapter, that'd be the one that worries me the most.

There are other long range mages, including Purge I think, but none of those require 3 range to hit. The one in the middle will generally not go all the way to the side where you can get him at 2 range, and it's also nice being able to kill him before he can attack anybody.

Make you get hit while facing low hit rates? Hey, I've had Eirika get hit by an 8% chance attack and again by a 10% chance attack, both in the same chapter (different game, but still).

Of course you get hit sometimes. If you get hit, you heal them. Duh. Also, a lot of the time I use rescues to let 3 or 4 units attack a boss all on the same turn. It's usually dead and I can seize so healing is irrelevant, but when the boss dodges enough or Rutger doesn't crit or whatever, there is still no danger even if you get hit.

What the hell do you think I'm suggesting here, anyway? Run in with 5 hp on someone and swing at the boss and pray you don't get hit or something stupid like that? I said 0%. ZERO. As in, no matter what happens, no matter which of my guys miss or how many of my guys the boss hits, NOBODY HAS A CHANCE OF DEATH. What part of 0% don't you get?

The only exception is 12x, I think, since even against the chapter 9 boss Zealot can take a hand axe crit without dying and if you promote Rutger he can usually take one as well. 12x is pretty much the only time I'd accept plucking away at 2 range while the boss has a 1 range weapon equipped to be safer. However I just use save states or rewind on him though since it annoys me to pluck away at like 10 damage a shot (Light Brand) or whatever your other units are capable of.

On a side note, I took a look at supports, and the only fast supports the nomads have are with each other >_>

Yep. Sue has a bunch of 1+1s, I said that earlier in this topic. Only Dayan and Shin aren't stupidly slow. Shin at least has a 1+2 with Fir, so if you use her then at least it's only 15 turns more than with Sue for each support level. Advantage to Sue is that she has the same move as he does and a mount so it's easier to build points between them than it is Fir and Shin. It's entirely possible for Sue x Shin to reach A before Fir x Shin reaches B, despite the former needing 85 turns and the latter needing only 60. Back to Sue, though, if you want Sue to be truly good in Sacae you need Shin. Otherwise she's just a crit-blick waiting to happen.

[Shadow Mir]

There are other long range mages, including Purge I think, but none of those require 3 range to hit. The one in the middle will generally not go all the way to the side where you can get him at 2 range, and it's also nice being able to kill him before he can attack anybody.

I doubt the guy we're talking about even moves. (At least I haven't seen him move...)

Of course you get hit sometimes. If you get hit, you heal them. Duh. Also, a lot of the time I use rescues to let 3 or 4 units attack a boss all on the same turn. It's usually dead and I can seize so healing is irrelevant, but when the boss dodges enough or Rutger doesn't crit or whatever, there is still no danger even if you get hit.

What the hell do you think I'm suggesting here, anyway? Run in with 5 hp on someone and swing at the boss and pray you don't get hit or something stupid like that? I said 0%. ZERO. As in, no matter what happens, no matter which of my guys miss or how many of my guys the boss hits, NOBODY HAS A CHANCE OF DEATH. What part of 0% don't you get?

The only exception is 12x, I think, since even against the chapter 9 boss Zealot can take a hand axe crit without dying and if you promote Rutger he can usually take one as well. 12x is pretty much the only time I'd accept plucking away at 2 range while the boss has a 1 range weapon equipped to be safer. However I just use save states or rewind on him though since it annoys me to pluck away at like 10 damage a shot (Light Brand) or whatever your other units are capable of.

I understand full well what you mean. However, rushing a boss the way you do just isn't one of my preferred tactics.

Yep. Sue has a bunch of 1+1s, I said that earlier in this topic. Only Dayan and Shin aren't stupidly slow. Shin at least has a 1+2 with Fir, so if you use her then at least it's only 15 turns more than with Sue for each support level. Advantage to Sue is that she has the same move as he does and a mount so it's easier to build points between them than it is Fir and Shin. It's entirely possible for Sue x Shin to reach A before Fir x Shin reaches B, despite the former needing 85 turns and the latter needing only 60. Back to Sue, though, if you want Sue to be truly good in Sacae you need Shin. Otherwise she's just a crit-blick waiting to happen.

Hmm... Speaking of "crit-blicks waiting to happen"... That reminds me only too well of Moulder and Saul, as well as why I don't like using them.

[Narga_Rocks]

I doubt the guy we're talking about even moves. (At least I haven't seen him move...)

That just makes the longbow even more important. I kinda thought he did, but maybe he doesn't. Either way, Longbow if your best hope of bringing this guy down quick, and chances are Shin is the best at it. Sue is too weak and the others are too slow to double, probably. Can't be 100% sure but I think so. This guy is promoted, though, so I think even Shin 3HKOs instead of 2HKOs. Unlike the guy near the bottom right in chapter 16 who isn't promoted and thus Shin can actually 2HKO.

I understand full well what you mean. However, rushing a boss the way you do just isn't one of my preferred tactics.

Hmm. Not sure how I feel about "rushing". To me that implies attacking ASAP even if it's only like one or two guys that can reach him and not caring about other enemies nearby. Sounds like disaster waiting to happen if you don't RNG abuse to make the boss die. When a boss is surrounded by 10 of my units and I figure out a way to make as many attack at 1 range as possible while not allowing a non-zero chance of death, I can't see how that could be called "rushing".

Hmm... Speaking of "crit-blicks waiting to happen"... That reminds me only too well of Moulder and Saul, as well as why I don't like using them.

Or Stefan.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Shadow Mir]

That just makes the longbow even more important. I kinda thought he did, but maybe he doesn't. Either way, Longbow if your best hope of bringing this guy down quick, and chances are Shin is the best at it. Sue is too weak and the others are too slow to double, probably. Can't be 100% sure but I think so. This guy is promoted, though, so I think even Shin 3HKOs instead of 2HKOs. Unlike the guy near the bottom right in chapter 16 who isn't promoted and thus Shin can actually 2HKO.

Hmm... Pretty annoying how Mr. Bolting is outta range. And in 16, it doesn't help that depending on positioning, the Bolting mages may even be out of Longbow reach (the square below the stairs where they spawn can't be reached with a longbow).

Hmm. Not sure how I feel about "rushing". To me that implies attacking ASAP even if it's only like one or two guys that can reach him and not caring about other enemies nearby. Sounds like disaster waiting to happen if you don't RNG abuse to make the boss die. When a boss is surrounded by 10 of my units and I figure out a way to make as many attack at 1 range as possible while not allowing a non-zero chance of death, I can't see how that could be called "rushing".

Yeah, I feel that wasn't the right word for it either...

Or Stefan.

Him too.

[Narga_Rocks]

Hmm... Pretty annoying how Mr. Bolting is outta range. And in 16, it doesn't help that depending on positioning, the Bolting mages may even be out of Longbow reach (the square below the stairs where they spawn can't be reached with a longbow).

Well, I'm usually long gone by the time the reinforcements come. The starting guy is in position to be KOd on turn 1 in chapter 16, and that's all that matters. The more annoying one is the Purge guy that starts near the boss. I try to draw him as far south as possible with a tempting morsel so that I can charge Shin up and kill him over the wall.

[Anouleth]

Hmm... Speaking of "crit-blicks waiting to happen"... That reminds me only too well of Moulder and Saul, as well as why I don't like using them.

Well, Moulder and Saul aren't so bad since they don't need to go into combat to do their job. What is annoying is when a combat unit has crappy luck. Lance, Lott, Barth, Normal Mode Tate/Miledy/Zeiss, and Echidna all fall into this, and that's just from FE6. You've also got Lucius, Knoll, Raven, Dozla and Rennac from the other GBA FEs, and it's worse in FE10 with all the enemies with +crit skills.

[Colonel M]

Nino.

Okay but on Gel he can be annoying only under the condition that you want to do the chapter in the absolute minimum # of turns as possible or attempting to charge at him up close, which is suicidal. The only unit that can come close to doing it is Rutger, and he needs his Clarine support to survive with the Angelic Robe (and assuming everything follows according to his averages). Henning is rather easy if you opt to early promote Rutger (or Dieck I guess). I admit he's pretty damn dangerous though. Then again, Oats and Windam annoyed the living shit out of me (Bolting? BOLTING!?! COME ON!) I guess then again; all FE6 bosses that aren't weak to Durandal are annoying as hell. Thank God Rutger exists.

Chapter 16 has an easy way around the Bolting Mage with a Dancer + LongBow user (if you cannot reach him, though I believe you -can-). The Bishop Purge is weird, but often I could get him to target my allies and stand right where I can snipe at him with 2 range. The problem? If it isn't a Bow user, the 2 range unit doesn't have good accuracy against him. >_>; The 16X Bolting Sage is the more annoying thing to face since you got Silence, Berserk, and Sleep running amock for 3 turns.

[Galenforcer]

Woah major topic revival.

I told you guys you'd kill it with your discussion over Shin.

[Shadow Mir]

Okay but on Gel he can be annoying only under the condition that you want to do the chapter in the absolute minimum # of turns as possible or attempting to charge at him up close, which is suicidal. The only unit that can come close to doing it is Rutger, and he needs his Clarine support to survive with the Angelic Robe (and assuming everything follows according to his averages). Henning is rather easy if you opt to early promote Rutger (or Dieck I guess). I admit he's pretty damn dangerous though. Then again, Oats and Windam annoyed the living shit out of me (Bolting? BOLTING!?! COME ON!) I guess then again; all FE6 bosses that aren't weak to Durandal are annoying as hell. Thank God Rutger exists.

Chapter 16 has an easy way around the Bolting Mage with a Dancer + LongBow user (if you cannot reach him, though I believe you -can-). The Bishop Purge is weird, but often I could get him to target my allies and stand right where I can snipe at him with 2 range. The problem? If it isn't a Bow user, the 2 range unit doesn't have good accuracy against him. >_>; The 16X Bolting Sage is the more annoying thing to face since you got Silence, Berserk, and Sleep running amock for 3 turns.

And it doesn't help that Gel's positioned such that only one ranged unit can get at him. With regard to Henning, the guy's got enough speed to double just about everyone. As for Windam, yeah... I just hate Berserk. Ohtz... Gah, Bolting. Double gah, Bolting. >_>;

Bold: Yeah... Javelins and Hand Axes in FE6 are just too inaccurate. >_>;

[Anouleth]

And it doesn't help that Gel's positioned such that only one ranged unit can get at him. With regard to Henning, the guy's got enough speed to double just about everyone. As for Windam, yeah... I just hate Berserk. Ohtz... Gah, Bolting. Double gah, Bolting. >_>;

Bold: Yeah... Javelins and Hand Axes in FE6 are just too inaccurate. >_>;

I quite like it. Hand Axes and Javelins were utterly overpowered in later instalments of FE, they're part of the reason that sword users weren't as good any more. Especially in FE9 and 10 when you could forge them.

[deleted35362]

Even I like Guy and hate using him. He just loves to die by accident.

[鳴美]

I hate every single male in these classes:

Archer/Sniper(ranger is OK)

Mage/Sage/Mage Knight

Swordfighter/Swordmaster(except Joshua, he's gorgeous <3)

Fighter/Warrior(like the class, hate the people)

Other people I hate include:

Eliwood (pre-promotion)

Roy (pre-SoS)

Serra

Every non-mounted character from FE4 (the maps are too big for your crappy 6 movement)

Anyone introduced in the last 5 chapters of the game.

[eclipse]

I hate every single male in these classes:

Archer/Sniper(ranger is OK)

Mage/Sage/Mage Knight

Swordfighter/Swordmaster(except Joshua, he's gorgeous <3)

Fighter/Warrior(like the class, hate the people)

Other people I hate include:

Eliwood (pre-promotion)

Roy (pre-SoS)

Serra

Every non-mounted character from FE4 (the maps are too big for your crappy 6 movement)

Anyone introduced in the last 5 chapters of the game.

What did Wil, Jeorge, Stefan, and Pent do to you?!

[Galenforcer]

What did Wil, Jeorge, Stefan, and Pent do to you?!

Be terrible and/or prepromoted?

[eclipse]

What's so bad about being a prepromote?

[Galenforcer]

What's so bad about being a prepromote?

Because people are afraid to fall for the Jeigan trap.

[Anouleth]

Because people are afraid to fall for the Jeigan trap.

Also known as the efficiency trap.