I dont care if everyone loves you or thinks you rock, I hate you and dont intend on ever using you!

[Colonel M]

Jill might be a stretch only because she's one of your two fliers until Chapter 18 when you get MANITH, DEFENDER OF MAN. This means your efficiency can severely decrease wrt Rescue drops.

[Anouleth]

Jill might be a stretch only because she's one of your two fliers until Chapter 18 when you get MANITH, DEFENDER OF MAN. This means your efficiency can severely decrease wrt Rescue drops.

I managed pretty well with no Jill in my last playthrough. Perhaps even better than if I had recruited her, because I would have needed to wait several turns. Rescue drops aren't so important midgame anyway, there's not so much terrain you need to carry people over.

Also, I'm not going to argue this any more. This is already pretty off-topic.

[Narga_Rocks]

Funny, we could just replace 'Kieran' with 'Ilyana' and 'Makalov' with 'Tormod' and we'd already have had this argument before. Although while there isn't a significant gap between Kieran and Makalov when trained, there is a significant gap between Tormod and Ilyana... so I guess it's not that similar.

At least Tormod has 8 move. That's something you can't get anywhere else (on a sage). Maybe if Mak had some epic skill then you'd at least be getting something. If Tormod didn't have Celerity then the same stuff would apply to him. Even if at equal levels he has better stats to Ilyana (not bothering to look), you could just give that same bexp to her instead of him. And then she'd have this giant level lead that would cover any statistical losses at equal levels.

Just imagine Fir and Rutger in a game with bexp. Sure, you could give her piles of bexp to make her catch up. Or you could dump that into him and he'd promote or be able to 4HKO instead of 5HKO (and need 2 crits). Or whatever. You could either turn Fir into the equivalent of Rutger and gain nothing with all that bexp you spent, or you could instead make Rutger double ALL the bosses (except that guy in chapter 19 Sacae) instead of just many of them. I'd rather double all then have two units doing the same thing when I mostly only need one.

I think that it's an incredibly stupid concept that you're handwaving that Kieran is taking more exp than Makalov. Experience that could have gone to another person and thus has an associated opportunity cost, just as feeding kills to Edward over Nolan has an opportunity cost.

Oh god. Don't you get it already? IT'S NOT ABOUT KIERAN YOU MORON. Your entire team gets used together as you play the game. Your level goes up. You put bexp and whatever else into your ENTIRE TEAM as you play. Thus, they have this nice level going on. Then Mak shows up. You could

a: dump all your bexp into him just to make him catch up

b: put that bexp into your existing team and have them be EVEN BETTER.

Why the hell would you want to waste it on Mak? Your argument about Kieran is irrelevant because exp has been placed into the team to make them all better. Why? So that you can annihilate between chapters 8 and 14. If you save up bexp for Mak, you will obviously perform less well during those chapters. Thus, it gets spent (or Mak's team carries the disadvantage of doing worse from chapters 8 to 14). Why the hell would Mak get owed anything when all you've been doing is beating the game as efficiently as possible? He's owed nothing. Period.

I don't care about who is 'owed' what. I have a very high degree of control over exp distribution, and Makalov is going to give me the most bang for my buck.

So taking Mak to level 16 is giving you more bang than taking someone from level 17 to 21 and thus promoting them? How the hell is that possible?

Kieran is asking for BEXP earlier, before the Knight Ward exists, and right before two chapters in which his performance is not important.

And if you didn't use Kieran you would use someone else that should also get bexp. This concept is not exactly hard. It's not about Kieran himself.

And if the team that didn't bother with Kieran is level ~16, shouldn't that mean that the team that did use Kieran would be a slightly lower level?

Nope. Because if they didn't use Kieran they would have used someone else who also got exp. Or you were down a unit. And your team was worse. And if this is Mak's "No Kieran" team then Mak is in a hole because your performance was worse for a while. Whatever extra turns were spent over those chapters because you were saving bexp for him instead of using it then are now on his tab. Congrats. He not only has to make up for those extra turns but he has to save even more just to have a point of using him.

Your choice. Either he's got this turncount hole he needs to pull us out of or the team is at whatever level when he appears and I could raise them or him and I'd choose them. Both of these options are bad for Mak.

Like, 15 or something? So even if Kieran's team can make everyone level 16, they need to do that just to catch up to Makalov's team, which can afford to give him BEXP.

idiot.

Why should we keep the BEXP in reserve? We can dump it into existing units.

Exactly. Which is why there is nothing extra for Mak. It all got used before he appeared. And when he shows up, the fact you gave other people bexp earlier means nothing at all to Mak. Everyone gets judged by the same standards in chapter 16 when determining where to put your brand new bexp from chapter 15. Whichever units boost your performance more from that point should be the ones that get it. There is no "wah wah but they already got bexp. Communist FE demands that I give that same bexp amount to this new guy".

Assuming an efficient clear of Chapter 15, we have a huge amount of BEXP in midgame, so we are not really at risk of running out later on when other units become available.

And you could put that bexp on your level 17 guys and promote them. Or you could blow it on Mak.

And I like the way you casually just assert that we already have a great team. Mind telling me who this great team is so I can proceed to discard everyone else in the entire game?

I told you earlier. You just weren't paying attention apparently.

Kieran is a good example (since Jill and Marcia have similar problems to Makalov). If you'd rather use a different example, do suggest one.

It's about the entire team. How is that not clear? They all get used and gain exp. Kieran was just singled out arbitrarily. I could have chosen anyone not Titania from the list I gave you earlier.

And to be honest, it annoys me the way that people act as if you can get experience for 'free' in this game.

And what would you suggest for the time period Mak doesn't exist? That Mak deserves = bexp to whatever you spent earlier? How does that even make sense? There was a reason you put that bexp into them. They were there for those chapters and you wanted a performance increase. Mak doesn't have that so there is no reason.

It's not like it's for "free". You get what is efficient. But there shouldn't be a penalty on characters because you are playing efficiently. Using Marcia, it is a great idea to give her a fair amount of bexp in the chapter 10 base because of what she'll become with it. Should I then give 500+ bexp to any other unit when considering their comparison to Marcia? When Tanith appears in chapter 18 should I not compare them until Tanith is given 500 bexp or whatever Marcia got earlier? Why can't I just place that bexp on Marcia in chapter 18? If my team is better off for dumping even more on Marcia, why should I be forced to spend bexp stupidly?

While there are exceptions to this, in a game like FE9, where you can exert so much control over EXP distribution and do not need to use inefficient EXP distribution to get through the midgame, experience is not 'free'.

Huh? But this is the entire point. You have control over exp distribution. You can say "I can give 800 bexp to Mak, let's see how this changes my team's performance. Okay, well I also see this level 17 unit. What happens if I give 800 bexp to him? Oh, I godmode even better. So why am I wasting time with the funky-haired idiot?"

It is fine if someone wants to talk about Sothe in FE10 getting a lot of kills, or Seth in FE8, or Marcus in his games, because you need to play that way to preserve efficiency. But you do not need to play that way in FE9, and when people treat FE9 like other FEs, it is just incorrect.

But we aren't. You use bexp to improve performance, yes? Mak has to dig his way out of this massive hole called his bases. You dump a lot of bexp into him just to get him up to stuff. You spend at least 500 bexp and get 0 performance increase on your team. It's basically dumping 500 bexp into a hole and saying "bye bye" to it because if your team doesn't improve as a result then there was quite literally 0 benefit to it. Now maybe thanks to his growths once he's caught up spending 90 exp on him is like spending 100 exp on someone else. But over 10 levels that is only getting back 100 of the bexp you spent on him earlier. In other words, he's going to spend the rest of the game trying to climb out of the hole that you created by turning 500 bexp into 0 gain.

You said that Makalov was 'redundant' in the first place. Aside from Titania, Ike, and Reyson, everyone in FE9 is redundant to some degree. You do not 'need' Jill if you have everyone else in Top Tier. You do not 'need' Oscar if you have everyone else in Top Tier. You can do perfectly efficient playthroughs without them.

Absolutely. However you have to use somebody from chapters 1 to 14. Titania can't run things on her own. As a result of needing to use people, you will almost certainly have a highly leveled group of units that make Mak irrelevant. It doesn't really matter who they are. They will exist, and bexp could be dumped into them to make them even better rather than letting Mak play catch-up. He offers nothing unique that gives me a reason to want to let him play catch-up. Marcia needs to catch-up. But Marcia flies and has somewhat unique utility along the way. There is actually motivation to do this.

If you want to dump bexp on Mak I can dump that same bexp on another Paladin. And I guarantee you that this Paladin will have a level lead as a result of actually existing and doing stuff before chapter 14. This nullifies the only advantage you've ever brought up for Mak. A small stat win when at equal levels. You want to say "well I don't have to dump the bexp into Kieran it could go into others". I say "exactly, just like you don't have to dump bexp into Mak". You want to put hundreds of bexp into Mak so why can't I do the same to some other unit of my choice?

Look, I'm not saying Mak is overrated. I'm not saying he deserves to drop on the tier list. We don't punish for redundancy in tier lists. At least, we normally don't. There are quite a few units in various upper mid or high tiers in some of our tier lists that you will almost never have a reason to even deploy if you are using specific units above them. And yet I don't ask for them to drop. I'm only saying that when playing a typical game of FE9 even remotely efficiently, you will have multiple better targets for your bexp than Mak once he finally shows up. He is redundant and I see little reason to use him. That's all I'm saying. If he didn't have that stupid hair and if I liked his personality more, I may consider it. He's inferior, but he's not exactly a lot inferior. Like you said, you can dump bexp on him and he has some statistical advantages at equal levels. I doubt my situation would be all that much worse if I decided to dump one of my pallies for him. I'm sure I'd do fine. I'm just saying, "What's the point?" He offers me nothing. There are more interesting characters. There are cooler characters. There are hotter characters. There are characters that will have better performances if I give them the bexp that you want to give to Mak. I have ZERO motivation to use Mak. That's all I was originally saying.

If I was actually suggesting he's overrated or wanted him to drop, I'd be posting this on the fe9 tier list. I don't, so I didn't.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Makalov's hair looks bad regardless of colour and the pink just makes it worse.

Yeah, he looks like Pauly Shore from back in the day. Only worse. Imagine that.

But like, hes not terrible so sometimes..only sometimes do i use him.

[Sain_FEH]

For me its every Knight/General. I just can't hold myself up waiting for their lumbering, non-DAing butts to get across the map.

The only one I could tolerate using was Horace in Shadow Dragon when I was doing a pre-promote only run because frankly I needed the characters. But I'm pretty sure after a couple levels I abandoned his lance skill and turned him into a Hero anyway.

[Anouleth]

For me its every Knight/General. I just can't hold myself up waiting for their lumbering, non-DAing butts to get across the map.

The only one I could tolerate using was Horace in Shadow Dragon when I was doing a pre-promote only run because frankly I needed the characters. But I'm pretty sure after a couple levels I abandoned his lance skill and turned him into a Hero anyway.

Nobody really likes Armour Knights except Grndjackal. Observe the tier lists, and how Armours are consistently in low tiers.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Funny that, since they can be really useful as meat shields and guys like Oswin kick a lot of ass. I suppose its their inferior movement that really hampers them. Or if their names are Wendy.

[NinjaMonkey]

Observe the tier lists, and how Armours are consistently in low tiers.

Unless your name is Gatrie...

[Narga_Rocks]

Unless your name is Gatrie...

His only typical General problem is low move. Low accuracy is solved with forges. He'll double (and ORKO) with 5 levels + a crown (and do so for most of part 3). Probably won't even need the crown on EM, just the levels. Movement still hampers him, though.

Oswin is helped by a few of fe7's maps being tight or small, and also the need to defend Merlinus in a few maps.

[Rewjeo]

There was quite a lot of discussion about him dropping, potentially a significant amount, not all that long ago. I don't know what came of it since I haven't done any thing tier-related lately, though.

[Anouleth]

Unless your name is Gatrie...

Well, Gatrie comes from FE10, where Armours are disgustingly fast. Like, on average, Armours have a higher speed growth than defense growth in that game.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not a big fan of Gonzales. First, he's horredously ugly. Second, the accuracy issues really get to me. Despite having less raw power, I can easily set up kills for Shin and Fir because they're accurate and double. I can't go below like a 45% chance to miss on non-armor enemies for quite some time with Gonzales, which makes him a pain to train, he also doesn't double reliably until he gets a few levels under his belt. He becomes very good after a few levels (though still has accuracy problems compared to Fir/Shin/etc.), but the early training period is just too painful for me to handle.

[Shadow Mir]

I'm not a big fan of Gonzales. First, he's horredously ugly. Second, the accuracy issues really get to me. Despite having less raw power, I can easily set up kills for Shin and Fir because they're accurate and double. I can't go below like a 45% chance to miss on non-armor enemies for quite some time with Gonzales, which makes him a pain to train, he also doesn't double reliably until he gets a few levels under his belt. He becomes very good after a few levels (though still has accuracy problems compared to Fir/Shin/etc.), but the early training period is just too painful for me to handle.

That makes two of us. I just can't stand axe-locked units who have crap for Skill growth.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Hmm... A lot of Paladins.

Kieran springs to mind immediately. Can't think of anyone else off the top of my head.

... 'Cept Levin, of course.

[Parrhesia]

I seriously don't understand your problem with Levin.

[Narga_Rocks]

I seriously don't understand your problem with Levin.

He likes making fe4 hard on himself so he can complain about its difficulty? Not sure. I've been wondering that myself.

[chococoke]

I have made many runs through Radiant Dawn, and never once used Volug. He just never turns out that greatly for me, unfortunately.

[Narga_Rocks]

But to be good in part 3 he doesn't need a boost to any of his stats. He just needs to not be using Wildheart. S rank weapon would be nice, but is not necessary for him to at least be good.

[dondon151]

Volug doesn't really even "turn out." 2-3 spd on base and he's good throughout literally the entire game.

[Narga_Rocks]

Volug doesn't really even "turn out." 2-3 spd on base and he's good throughout literally the entire game.

It's not *that* hard for a 40% spd growth to fail on you, though. Even though 8 levels will generally get you those 3 points of spd, that's still a 32% chance of not even managing. I can see how someone using Volug would frequently end up getting screwed. A little unlucky and it's not hard to believe at least two playthroughs in a row would get screwed.

[AKFrost]

I never, ever used the DB more than the story required me to in FE10. They just felt so lackluster compared to the usual starters, especially given the poor screentime they got.

Especially Micaiah, poor Micaiah. She always ended up being 5/7/1 at endgame. But fortunately the game's forgiving enough with good units that I can afford to just wall her.

I also have this strange preference for foot units, so I never train my cavs even though they're kickass in 7.

[Anouleth]

I thought Volug only needs two points. That puts him on 30AS, which is good enough for Part 4. And as a level 21 laguz, he'll gain a lot of EXP in Part 4 as well.

[Rewjeo]

And, if you really are that unlucky, you could put a wing on him. There are better candidates in a maximum efficiency playthrough, sure, but if you really want to use him in just-for-fun playthrough, then you may as well.

[Shadow Mir]

I never, ever used the DB more than the story required me to in FE10. They just felt so lackluster compared to the usual starters, especially given the poor screentime they got.

Especially Micaiah, poor Micaiah. She always ended up being 5/7/1 at endgame. But fortunately the game's forgiving enough with good units that I can afford to just wall her.

I also have this strange preference for foot units, so I never train my cavs even though they're kickass in 7.

On the other hand, excepting Ike because he's forced, most of the Mercenaries don't even see frequent use from me, and only one (Mist) even gets to see Endgame use most of the time.

[AKFrost]

On the other hand, excepting Ike because he's forced, most of the Mercenaries don't even see frequent use from me, and only one (Mist) even gets to see Endgame use most of the time.

I really don't like Mia. For me Zihark always outclasses her, but then again, I'm not giving the DB any exp so Zihark's always pretty overleveled.

Mist in my opinion just sucks, but I've never saw much need for staff healing before Elincia takes over anyway.

The other guys I also minimize using. Only Shinon because for some reason he can dodge and kill, unlike the FE7 archers.

All in all FE10's generous helping of Laguz Royals + ike and haar pretty much means you won't need to raise most of the characters unless you're doing ranked, and I don't have the patience for that.

Edited December 3, 2010 by AKFrost