I dont care if everyone loves you or thinks you rock, I hate you and dont intend on ever using you!

[Axie]

I would understand a "Jeigan trap" if the Fire Emblem games actually got harder (or at least didn't get easier) as the chapters go on, or if the Jeigan units weren't so good recently and were more like FE6 Marcus or even Jeigan himself. But that's not the case.

Also your units are mostly promoted by the time Pent comes so I don't get how he is "Jeigan trap" at all.

I hate every single male in these classes:

Mage/Sage/Mage Knight

How can someone hate ALL OF Merric, Levin, Arthur, Sety, Asvel, Lugh, Erk, Pent and Saleh? O_O Most of those people are amazing in every sense of the word. Azel, Hugh and Ewan not included because I get the hate in their cases. But I like them anyway. Also FE9/10 people not included because I don't know them~

[Anouleth]

I would understand a "Jeigan trap" if the Fire Emblem games actually got harder (or at least didn't get easier) as the chapters go on, or if the Jeigan units weren't so good recently and were more like FE6 Marcus or even Jeigan himself. But that's not the case.

Even Jeigan can have use into midgame because weapon forges are so powerful. So can FE6 Marcus, if you can get his speed high enough to double in the Western Isles. But Jeigan and Marcus don't 1-round everything in the first few chapters either, so it's a lot easier to use them 'lightly'.

Also your units are mostly promoted by the time Pent comes so I don't get how he is "Jeigan trap" at all.

Obviously because he steals EXP from Nino!

How can someone hate ALL OF Merric, Levin, Arthur, Sety, Asvel, Lugh, Erk, Pent and Saleh? O_O Most of those people are amazing in every sense of the word. Azel, Hugh and Ewan not included because I get the hate in their cases. But I like them anyway. Also FE9/10 people not included because I don't know them~

You hate plenty of good characters yourself. Shin, Kyle, Moulder, Makalov.

[鳴美]

How can someone hate ALL OF Merric, Levin, Arthur, Sety, Asvel, Lugh, Erk, Pent and Saleh? O_O Most of those people are amazing in every sense of the word. Azel, Hugh and Ewan not included because I get the hate in their cases. But I like them anyway. Also FE9/10 people not included because I don't know them~

Because females exist in those classes.

[Galenforcer]

Because females exist in those classes.

I smell some sexism going on around here.

[Narga_Rocks]

Because females exist in those classes.

Merric: Females can't use Excalibur

Levin/Arthur/Sety: Females can't use Holsety

Asvel: Females can't use Grafcalibur

Pent: Females don't start with A Anima + A Staves and great stats (considering you don't need to raise him)

Saleh: See Pent only lower the staff rank, make light available, lower the stats a bit, and remember that Lute only has 3 con when she starts and promotes to just D staves long after Saleh could raise his to at least B

Sure, females exist in those classes. But the men are often way too good for it to matter.

[鳴美]

Merric: Females can't use Excalibur

Levin/Arthur/Sety: Females can't use Holsety

Asvel: Females can't use Grafcalibur

Pent: Females don't start with A Anima + A Staves and great stats (considering you don't need to raise him)

Saleh: See Pent only lower the staff rank, make light available, lower the stats a bit, and remember that Lute only has 3 con when she starts and promotes to just D staves long after Saleh could raise his to at least B

Because I care about your One of a kind, limited use tomes :)

As for Pent and Saleh, why the fuck should I care? Nino almost always has an S in Anima 2-3 chapters after I get her, Lute has S in anima and A/B in Light by the time I get Saleh in Eirika mode XD And any staff above Physic is just a waste.

[Thor Odinson]

Honestly, I don't see why gender matters as long as the unit kicks enough ass to make up for it.

Sounds like more favoritism I give to Lakche and Seth combined.

[Narga_Rocks]

As for Pent and Saleh, why the fuck should I care? Nino almost always has an S in Anima 2-3 chapters after I get her, Lute has S in anima and A/B in Light by the time I get Saleh in Eirika mode XD And any staff above Physic is just a waste.

Lute also loses 4 AS from Excalibur as a Sage. 13 wt, +5 AS, but she has 4 con. On average he beats her by 1.5 AS at level 20 if you want to compare at that level.

Also, Physic is a B in both fe7 and fe8. You telling me you staff abuse from E to B for Nino and D to B for Lute just so that they don't lose to him? And warp and fortify are both pretty useful A staves.

And Holsety isn't limited use at all. You can repair it in fe4. Excalibur and Grafcalibur may be limited, but Grafcalibur at least has some epic boss-killing potential that you aren't getting from any of the females in that game. Limited use tomes are important if you use them well. Face it, the characters you've chosen to like suck in comparison to their male counterparts.

[Shadow Mir]

Lute also loses 4 AS from Excalibur as a Sage. 13 wt, +5 AS, but she has 4 con. On average he beats her by 1.5 AS at level 20 if you want to compare at that level.

Also, Physic is a B in both fe7 and fe8. You telling me you staff abuse from E to B for Nino and D to B for Lute just so that they don't lose to him? And warp and fortify are both pretty useful A staves.

And Holsety isn't limited use at all. You can repair it in fe4. Excalibur and Grafcalibur may be limited, but Grafcalibur at least has some epic boss-killing potential that you aren't getting from any of the females in that game. Limited use tomes are important if you use them well. Face it, the characters you've chosen to like suck in comparison to their male counterparts.

Not to mention the extreme favoritism it'd take for some of these to even happen (wth at Lute having both S Anima AND A/B in Light by the time Saleh arrives on Eirika mode). And personally, I think a healer being able to attack is a better improvement for the army than an offensive mage being able to heal.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Axie]

Because females exist in those classes.

Wow, sexism. : [

You hate plenty of good characters yourself. Shin, Kyle, Moulder, Makalov.

I only hate Shin because his personality is blander than an army of Noishes. Realistically he's a great unit and I've used him before sometimes because of it.

I dislike Moulder because he's ugly because I hate his brown palette because he is boring, as well. Plus he's not even a really good unit even if he is the first healer AND has huge ass Con (lolfat).

And I admittedly didn't play FE9 yet so I can change my mind, but Makalov is too ugly and has a bad personality from what I can read on Supports. I don't know if he is good gameplay-wise, but I hope he isn't : [

And I'm slowly changing my mind on Kyle now because of a new FE8 playthrough. He has more personality than I remembered!

[Anouleth]

I only hate Shin because his personality is blander than an army of Noishes. Realistically he's a great unit and I've used him before sometimes because of it.

The topic title says 'I hate you and dont intend on ever using you!' I don't think anyone raves over Shin for his great personality...

I dislike Moulder because he's ugly because I hate his brown palette because he is boring, as well. Plus he's not even a really good unit even if he is the first healer AND has huge ass Con (lolfat).

Yeah, his stats are actually really mediocre, especially luck. The only reason people consider him the best healer is because of overrating CON and he has the highest level and staff rank.

And I admittedly didn't play FE9 yet so I can change my mind, but Makalov is too ugly and has a bad personality from what I can read on Supports. I don't know if he is good gameplay-wise, but I hope he isn't : [

Bottom of High Tier. He joins midway through the game, but he has one of the best classes and perhaps the best growth spread of any unpromoted unit in the game, with high strength, speed and defense.

[Narga_Rocks]

Bottom of High Tier. He joins midway through the game, but he has one of the best classes and perhaps the best growth spread of any unpromoted unit in the game, with high strength, speed and defense.

To be perfectly honest though, Mak has always struck me as redundant. You have Oscar, Kieran, Titania, Astrid. You can add Marcia, Jill, and Tanith in a few chapters. Even if you expect me to load my team up with high-move units + Ike, you can still make a team of 8 without him, all of which are either less bexp intensive or at least give you more chapters of using that bexp than Mak does (unless you don't kill any laguz in chapter 15 and you pour nearly all your new bexp into him, though I still think that if you have a bunch of level 18 units and you could promote them all with it that this would be a better manner of spending it).

Now sure, we try not to make tier lists where characters that can be good on their own but are unneeded are punished for it. Or at least a lot of the time. But with Mak's face and hair thrown in I don't see the point of actually using him in a playthrough.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Anouleth]

To be perfectly honest though, Mak has always struck me as redundant. You have Oscar, Kieran, Titania, Astrid. You can add Marcia, Jill, and Tanith in a few chapters. Even if you expect me to load my team up with high-move units + Ike, you can still make a team of 8 without him, all of which are either less bexp intensive or at least give you more chapters of using that bexp than Mak does (unless you don't kill any laguz in chapter 15 and you pour nearly all your new bexp into him, though I still think that if you have a bunch of level 18 units and you could promote them all with it that this would be a better manner of spending it).

Now sure, we try not to make tier lists where characters that can be good on their own but are unneeded are punished for it. Or at least a lot of the time. But with Mak's face and hair thrown in I don't see the point of actually using him in a playthrough.

Makalov is statistically superior to most other Paladins when trained. Tied for highest strength. Highest HP. Second highest speed. Tied for highest defense. Many units are 'redundant'. Even Jill is redundant to a degree, and she forces us to wait to recruit her.

And if it isn't clear, I'm perfectly willing to sink BEXP into people who end up better later on. The way I see it, FE9 gives me almost ultimate freedom to distribute EXP however I want. This means that for characters with 'bad starts', I can skip their bad start by favouring them with BEXP. I have no reason to settle for a statistically inferior character just because they join earlier.

[Florete]

To be perfectly honest though, Mak has always struck me as redundant. You have Oscar, Kieran, Titania, Astrid. You can add Marcia, Jill, and Tanith in a few chapters. Even if you expect me to load my team up with high-move units + Ike, you can still make a team of 8 without him, all of which are either less bexp intensive or at least give you more chapters of using that bexp than Mak does (unless you don't kill any laguz in chapter 15 and you pour nearly all your new bexp into him, though I still think that if you have a bunch of level 18 units and you could promote them all with it that this would be a better manner of spending it).

I completely agree. I've never tried using him yet myself, but I remember my brother having some issues with his accuracy (though he might not have used forges). Needs training + likely worst of the bunch + terrible face, hair, and personality = why the hell should I care? At least other units that start weak like Nino are cute. Even Rolf has some lovability to him.

[Anouleth]

I completely agree. I've never tried using him yet myself, but I remember my brother having some issues with his accuracy (though he might not have used forges). Needs training + likely worst of the bunch + terrible face, hair, and personality = why the hell should I care? At least other units that start weak like Nino are cute. Even Rolf has some lovability to him.

I cannot stand FE9 Rolf. His sprite is just repulsive. And I don't see anyone ripping on Marcia's hair!

[Florete]

I cannot stand FE9 Rolf. His sprite is just repulsive. And I don't see anyone ripping on Marcia's hair!

Marcia can do pink hair. Makalov can't.

[Narga_Rocks]

Marcia can do pink hair. Makalov can't.

It's not just the colour. Well, for Mak the colour is part of it. It's the style. Or lack thereof. Marcia's hair works. It looks normal ignoring the colour, and she can definitely sell the pink.

Makalov's hair looks bad regardless of colour and the pink just makes it worse.

Also, sure, Mak may have some leads at equal levels. But that's the problem. Equal levels. Oscar or Kieran or whomever could be three or four levels higher at any time. At least Astrid has paragon so eventually she'll probably be the one with the level lead.

[Axie]

The topic title says 'I hate you and dont intend on ever using you!' I don't think anyone raves over Shin for his great personality...

The thread title actually says "I don't care if everyone loves you or think you rock". And everyone drools over Shin because he's so good.

And I hate it because he's boring, by the time he joins I already am training a bow user, and if I start to use him them, it means I have a higher chance of going to Sacae when I really prefer Ilia. And all of that doesn't deny the fact he's vastly superior to Wolt, Dorothy and Sue, which means I'm missing out for not using him, which makes me hate him more. It's kinda stupid, really. : [

[Shadow Mir]

It's not just the colour. Well, for Mak the colour is part of it. It's the style. Or lack thereof. Marcia's hair works. It looks normal ignoring the colour, and she can definitely sell the pink.

Makalov's hair looks bad regardless of colour and the pink just makes it worse.

Yeah. Mak's hair would look bad no matter the color, but pink hair to go with that!? Bleck!

Bold:

[eclipse]

The topic title says 'I hate you and dont intend on ever using you!' I don't think anyone raves over Shin for his great personality...

I like him because he's relatively easy on the eyes.

[Anouleth]

Also, sure, Mak may have some leads at equal levels. But that's the problem. Equal levels. Oscar or Kieran or whomever could be three or four levels higher at any time. At least Astrid has paragon so eventually she'll probably be the one with the level lead.

But there is no level lead. Like I said earlier, I have complete power how experience is distributed thanks to BEXP (and the existence of multiple opportunities to give up CEXP for BEXP). Unless by deploying Kieran, I magically increase the amount of CEXP and BEXP available to me, he will not have a level lead beyond the fact he starts off two levels higher. This is not like FE6 where if a unit joins at a low level halfway through the game, the only way to train them is feeding them kills and dealing with their 'poor start'.

[Narga_Rocks]

But there is no level lead. Like I said earlier, I have complete power how experience is distributed thanks to BEXP (and the existence of multiple opportunities to give up CEXP for BEXP). Unless by deploying Kieran, I magically increase the amount of CEXP and BEXP available to me, he will not have a level lead beyond the fact he starts off two levels higher. This is not like FE6 where if a unit joins at a low level halfway through the game, the only way to train them is feeding them kills and dealing with their 'poor start'.

Except if you dump x bexp into Makalov, you could have just as easily dumped that x bexp into Kieran. Understand yet? That's where the level lead is coming from. Whatever you do for Makalov, if you treated some other character similarly from the point Mak showed up, they'd have a level lead. It's why you shouldn't be comparing them at equal levels.

[Anouleth]

Except if you dump x bexp into Makalov, you could have just as easily dumped that x bexp into Kieran. Understand yet? That's where the level lead is coming from. Whatever you do for Makalov, if you treated some other character similarly from the point Mak showed up, they'd have a level lead. It's why you shouldn't be comparing them at equal levels.

If Kieran has a level lead beyond that which he starts with, then he must have taken BEXP or CEXP to get it. That could have gone to other people. If Kieran took CEXP that could have gone to other people, I need to give them more BEXP. Kieran's team does not magically have a larger pool of exp to draw from than Makalov's.

[Narga_Rocks]

If Kieran has a level lead beyond that which he starts with, then he must have taken BEXP or CEXP to get it. That could have gone to other people. If Kieran took CEXP that could have gone to other people, I need to give them more BEXP. Kieran's team does not magically have a larger pool of exp to draw from than Makalov's.

Kieran appears earlier. You spend bexp to boost performance earlier. And as he fights he gains cexp because he rocks, not because you are feeding him exp. Exp gained from beating chapters by a unit that you using on your team is not exp owed to some idiot that shows up later. That's an incredibly stupid concept.

Whatever the levels of your characters when Mak appears, he is owed nothing. Ever. If you've been treating your earlier units with an eye for efficiency, there is no reason for that. Anything that can go into Mak can also go into any or all of them. Most of your units should be level 16+ by then, and he's messing around at level 10. If you want to dump ~600 bexp into him to get him up to their level then I can do whatever I'd like with it. Either spread it around if the ~100 each makes a difference or focus it on one or two units that I'd like to make promote now.

If you want to argue that the bexp spent on one of the members of the earlier team back in chapters 8 to 14 should be held in reserve for Mak then that means that your team has been using that much less bexp since the start and could have been performing that much better. Mak is now responsible for holding your team back before chapter 14. Congratulations on making him even worse. The point is that there isn't any benefit to dumping the bexp into him since you already have a great team and applying the bexp into Mak rather than them will just make your team worse over all.

And way to be a douche about this. Kieran himself has nothing to do with anything. He's just an example of one of the units on the team. It could have been Marcia or Oscar or Jill. The point is merely that you could be putting bexp into higher leveled units and not bothering with Mak at all.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Anouleth]

Funny, we could just replace 'Kieran' with 'Ilyana' and 'Makalov' with 'Tormod' and we'd already have had this argument before. Although while there isn't a significant gap between Kieran and Makalov when trained, there is a significant gap between Tormod and Ilyana... so I guess it's not that similar.

Kieran appears earlier. You spend bexp to boost performance earlier. And as he fights he gains cexp because he rocks, not because you are feeding him exp. Exp gained from beating chapters by a unit that you using on your team is not exp owed to some idiot that shows up later. That's an incredibly stupid concept.

I think that it's an incredibly stupid concept that you're handwaving that Kieran is taking more exp than Makalov. Experience that could have gone to another person and thus has an associated opportunity cost, just as feeding kills to Edward over Nolan has an opportunity cost.

Whatever the levels of your characters when Mak appears, he is owed nothing. Ever. If you've been treating your earlier units with an eye for efficiency, there is no reason for that. Anything that can go into Mak can also go into any or all of them. Most of your units should be level 16+ by then, and he's messing around at level 10. If you want to dump ~600 bexp into him to get him up to their level then I can do whatever I'd like with it. Either spread it around if the ~100 each makes a difference or focus it on one or two units that I'd like to make promote now.

I don't care about who is 'owed' what. I have a very high degree of control over exp distribution, and Makalov is going to give me the most bang for my buck. Kieran is asking for BEXP earlier, before the Knight Ward exists, and right before two chapters in which his performance is not important.

And if the team that didn't bother with Kieran is level ~16, shouldn't that mean that the team that did use Kieran would be a slightly lower level? Like, 15 or something? So even if Kieran's team can make everyone level 16, they need to do that just to catch up to Makalov's team, which can afford to give him BEXP.

If you want to argue that the bexp spent on one of the members of the earlier team back in chapters 8 to 14 should be held in reserve for Mak then that means that your team has been using that much less bexp since the start and could have been performing that much better. Mak is now responsible for holding your team back before chapter 14. Congratulations on making him even worse. The point is that there isn't any benefit to dumping the bexp into him since you already have a great team and applying the bexp into Mak rather than them will just make your team worse over all.

Why should we keep the BEXP in reserve? We can dump it into existing units. Assuming an efficient clear of Chapter 15, we have a huge amount of BEXP in midgame, so we are not really at risk of running out later on when other units become available.

And I like the way you casually just assert that we already have a great team. Mind telling me who this great team is so I can proceed to discard everyone else in the entire game?

And way to be a douche about this. Kieran himself has nothing to do with anything. He's just an example of one of the units on the team. It could have been Marcia or Oscar or Jill. The point is merely that you could be putting bexp into higher leveled units and not bothering with Mak at all.

Kieran is a good example (since Jill and Marcia have similar problems to Makalov). If you'd rather use a different example, do suggest one.

And to be honest, it annoys me the way that people act as if you can get experience for 'free' in this game. While there are exceptions to this, in a game like FE9, where you can exert so much control over EXP distribution and do not need to use inefficient EXP distribution to get through the midgame, experience is not 'free'. It is fine if someone wants to talk about Sothe in FE10 getting a lot of kills, or Seth in FE8, or Marcus in his games, because you need to play that way to preserve efficiency. But you do not need to play that way in FE9, and when people treat FE9 like other FEs, it is just incorrect. (and yes, while FE10 does have BEXP, you do not really get enough that you can have the same kind of freedom you do in FE9).

You said that Makalov was 'redundant' in the first place. Aside from Titania, Ike, and Reyson, everyone in FE9 is redundant to some degree. You do not 'need' Jill if you have everyone else in Top Tier. You do not 'need' Oscar if you have everyone else in Top Tier. You can do perfectly efficient playthroughs without them.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth