eclipse Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Almost any semblance of suffering, especially involving flames, aren't from the bible. Those images of devils and flames are romantic versions and images which were brought up in poems and in paintings. The Bible says virtually nothing about what hell is, other than, essentially, in a short sentence, it's somewhere you don't want to be. Everything else has been made up, and then people accept it, forgetting it's not even in any version of the Bible. Angels are the same way--what people envision angels to be is nothing like what they are described as in the books themselves. Present-day images of almost everything having to do with the three western religions did not come from the religion, but an outside source. Revelations makes some mention of a lake of fire, and that's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanami Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Almost any semblance of suffering, especially involving flames, aren't from the bible. Those images of devils and flames are romantic versions and images which were brought up in poems and in paintings. The Bible says virtually nothing about what hell is, other than, essentially, in a short sentence, it's somewhere you don't want to be. Everything else has been made up, and then people accept it, forgetting it's not even in any version of the Bible. Your beef is with the institutionalization of religion then, not religion itself. Is that your belief or actual fact? * Matthew 13:50 “The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” * Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched” * Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone” My revelation here is that Revelation is apparently not part of the bible. :/ As for institutionalization, my "beef" is with it being called "right." For as long as people believe it to be true, and as good as they'd like to believe, it will be imposed on others, religion, like most gatherings of people is a system which will seek to expand. And since religious folk hold the bible so close, it's inevitable that these people will preach out of the book (or at least ideas from the book). And since they'll spread throughout the bureaucracy and other high positions, institutionalization in a sense is synonymous claiming whatever religion to be true. Regardless of the above, it doesn't matter. Essentially the message is "if you don't believe in God" bad stuff will happen to you. And if I have to pull out verses to show why "hell is bad" I can do so. (I just hope that's something you religious people are willing to accept without an argument). Still fear tactics. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEnd Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) Everything in the Bible is clearly supposed to be taken literally. Especially Revelations. Still fear tactics. :/ And fear is an effective tool. But the focus on fear varies, you see. It played a big role during the Middle Ages because the Catholic Church wanted to keep its political power and privileges, but serious religions nowadays tend to downplay that aspect, because really... they can't say God is infinitely loving and whatnot if He's ready to throw everyone into hell, whatever it might be. But there's another side to it: as long as one is faithful, they'll escape eternal punishment - and earn a reward, even! Those harassing the faithful or otherwise living in a reproachable way, however? They aren't going to be so lucky. I won't deny that this serves as a wonderful control mechanism - it does keep people from rebelling, at the very least. But it also gives the believers peace of mind - they don't need to feel powerless in their rage against injustice or whatever, because God will take care of it eventually. As for institutionalization, my "beef" is with it being called "right." For as long as people believe it to be true, and as good as they'd like to believe, it will be imposed on others, religion, like most gatherings of people is a system which will seek to expand. As much as people seem to assume that believing in a religion makes a person incapable of logical thinking, that's insultingly wrong. There are many who realize that what's good for them isn't necessarily for others, that a person's worth can't be measured by their credo... and that the concept of "right" is often relative. The real issue is those who don't. Your argument is very akin to denying the value of fire because there's arson, if you ask me. Edited March 24, 2011 by TheEnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 I can't wait until there's no religion for people to have pointless, boring arguments over any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted March 24, 2011 Author Share Posted March 24, 2011 I can't wait until there's no religion for people to have pointless, boring arguments over any more. That would be the perfect outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haze Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Regardless of the above, it doesn't matter. Essentially the message is "if you don't believe in God" bad stuff will happen to you. And if I have to pull out verses to show why "hell is bad" I can do so. (I just hope that's something you religious people are willing to accept without an argument). Still fear tactics. :/ My problem with this is that the bible repeatedly says God is a benevolent and caring ruler and gave us freedom of choice. I tend to point out that forcing people to choose between servitude or death/eternal torment(depending on version and interperatation) is not the action of a benevolent ruler, but of a dictator. Then they get angry at me. Also my primary issues with religion stem from the corrupt people who run the churches. They've been warping people's minds and twisting the words in their own sacred texts to suit their needs for centuries now. It's sickening. Also echoing Raven, I have no religion either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) Is that your belief or actual fact? * Matthew 13:50 “The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” * Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched” * Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone” My revelation here is that Revelation is apparently not part of the bible. :/ Literal interpretations aren't ever good unless you make them in faith. If they were, every man would have to respect that he cannot do much sexually other than get women pregnant (contextually around Genesis 38:9 ). Most interpretations of what Hell is, in the Christian mythology, are exaggerated by sources outside of the mythos. But there is no real separation between the exaggerations and the actual text present day. As for institutionalization, my "beef" is with it being called "right." For as long as people believe it to be true, and as good as they'd like to believe, it will be imposed on others, religion, like most gatherings of people is a system which will seek to expand. And since religious folk hold the bible so close, it's inevitable that these people will preach out of the book (or at least ideas from the book). And since they'll spread throughout the bureaucracy and other high positions, institutionalization in a sense is synonymous claiming whatever religion to be true. Thus the issue with institution. Which is not the same as religion. Or science. Or philosophy, or theology. You're making leaps of faith and assuming end results are inevitable. C.S. Lewis apparently shouldn't have ever thought or said anything, nor Descartes, nor Bishop George Berkeley, nor many, many others who adhere to Christian mythology--for if you assumption were true, they wouldn't attempt to understand anything, but only accept. "Religious folk" isn't properly understood in your sense. You are annotating of zealots. Which exist no matter what concept is in force or being accepted. Also my primary issues with religion stem from the corrupt people who run the churches. They've been warping people's minds and twisting the words in their own sacred texts to suit their needs for centuries now. It's sickening. Blind patriotism hasn't ever worked out too well for uncensored thought and exploration. Most who say they hate religion, or socialism, or democracy, or republics, or communism, is not because the concept but because how they are played out and made to exist, as institutions. They hate how people use the institutionalized forms as tools, not the content itself. Though, for one reason or another, they lump the two together as if they aren't separate. that's referred to as racism Edited March 24, 2011 by Celice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 My goodness, I'm agreeing wholeheartedly with Esau. The world really WILL end! Before you know it you will agree with absolutely everything I say. I said "I believe", didn't I? I was wrong, oh fffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu- Why did you believe something that so readily collapses under scrutiny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I can't wait until there's no religion for people to have pointless, boring arguments over any more. Don't worry, we humans will always find something else to bicker about~! Before you know it you will agree with absolutely everything I say. Somehow, I doubt this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Somehow, I doubt this. I certainly can't see why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I certainly can't see why. I have my appendix a working brain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rothene Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 How does one define Religion? I understand customs but religion escapes me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 One of my dictionaries lists it as "strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny." But essentially religion is a dogma which is adhered to presently (so not a dead religion) which seeks to explain some facet of existence. They're almost always biased from a human perspective. Though, there are some pretty ones from the Americas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rothene Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Pretty ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I doubt religion will vanish anytime soon. It's just still so big, and there are so many religions out there, that I just don't see it happening. Also, religion is not necessarily the belief in a God or any other supernatural being. Religion is often based on values, morality and ethics - giving meaning to life. That is, as far as I know, the most important part to religion, not the belief in some God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I have my appendix a working brain Ooooh, low blow. At the appendix part, of course. :V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Ooooh, low blow. At the appendix part, of course. :V Sorry. This little tangent shows that we humans can find plenty of other things to disagree on. If religion were to suddenly disappear, something else would take its place soon enough, and we'd get right back to silly arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 To be fair, I subsist on silly arguments. They're like candy to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rothene Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Humans always need something to believe in. If religion is defined by belief, that can be belief in supernatural stuff, omnipotent entities or SELF. Then religion can never disappear, because people always cling onto something. If one doesn't believe in anything, one accomplishes nothing. And why people will always try to belive in some higher power willing things to happen may also attribute sometimes to "read articles about 'Why people fail to acknowedge their own incompetence'" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 Why did you believe something that so readily collapses under scrutiny? Because it was 4:10am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 It's really sad to see that religion is declining in those countries. I'm sure most of the people here won't understand this, but religions tend to have a huge reflection upon the way of life of the practitioners, causing huge distinctions between people, being a large part of a peoples culture, as well as many other things. I've even gotten to the point where, in my world-civilization class, I've stopped taking the actual Civilization book (thing is heavy compared to the other books I need to bring) and am just taking my World Religions book; and am actually doing better than people with just the World Civ book (FYI, if you ever take World Civ, it is VERY helpful to take World Religion at the same time). Back on topic. It's very sad to hear that some of these places are dying off in terms of religion. Some of them have beautiful cultures and mythologies (study Irish mythology and try to deny that it does not have a romantic feel to it) to boot. I know that they won't be lost, but it is a huge reduction of their cultural identity still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 To me at least, religion is an emalgamation of stories. Regardless of whether they are true or not is another thing. (Parting of an ocean? Talking snakes? multi-armed elephants? Amongst other things?Please.) Some of the stuff is so over the top and unnatural, I can not fathom for the life of me why some people actually believe these things happened. Indeed you don't have to believe these things to be part of a religious group, but the fact some people believe this stuff is beyond me. God's just another story, like Father Christmas or the Tooth Fairy, to some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEnd Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 (edited) To me at least, religion is an emalgamation of stories. Regardless of whether they are true or not is another thing. (Parting of an ocean? Talking snakes? multi-armed elephants? Amongst other things?Please.) Some of the stuff is so over the top and unnatural, I can not fathom for the life of me why some people actually believe these things happened. If God created the laws of physics, he can break them too. It makes sense in context. Indeed you don't have to believe these things to be part of a religious group, but the fact some people believe this stuff is beyond me. God's just another story, like Father Christmas or the Tooth Fairy, to some people. I don't think you realize how offensive that kind of comparison is. Edited March 25, 2011 by TheEnd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 To me at least, religion is an emalgamation of stories. Regardless of whether they are true or not is another thing. (Parting of an ocean? Talking snakes? multi-armed elephants? Amongst other things?Please.) Some of the stuff is so over the top and unnatural, I can not fathom for the life of me why some people actually believe these things happened. Rationalizing the idea of existence itself is absurd, unnatural, and impossible. Actually thinking about matter, it makes less sense and more sense than religion makes less sense and more sense of. Neither are any less absurd. One you just depend on more, and assume is more worthwhile in pursuit (most people, at least). Someone had said something about religion being ethics and morals you live by--no, that would be a philosophy or tradition. Religion is separated by that 'other' presence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 (edited) Because it was 4:10am. You're telling me you formulated a large portion of your religious beliefs at 4:10 in the morning, and never pondered them at any other time? I don't think you realize how offensive that kind of comparison is. Yeah he does. That's why he said it. :V Edited March 25, 2011 by Esau of Isaac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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