Religion could become extinct in up to nine Countries "within years".

[Snowy_One]

Someone had said something about religion being ethics and morals you live by--no, that would be a philosophy or tradition. Religion is separated by that 'other' presence.

Not quite true. Ethics and morals tend to be affected by religion as well; both in good and bad ways. So in a way, though it is not direct, religion does affect your ethics and morals.

Indeed you don't have to believe these things to be part of a religious group, but the fact some people believe this stuff is beyond me. God's just another story, like Father Christmas or the Tooth Fairy, to some people.

Father Christmas, AKA Santa, actually did exist at one time. Not as the jolly red man who flew around the world giving toys to people, granted, but he was still real. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas (I'm too lazy/trying to get ready for friends to touch on non-wiki material).

Conversely, with the tooth fairy, the myth was invented as a way to reassure/reward children on their road to maturity. It is a lie knowingly told by parents to try and help their child grow. That is very different from people believing in things that they at least took to be divine instances of intervention and honestly believe to be real.

Besides, I personally find it absurd whenever someone says our universe came from a big bang. Mainly because, when I ask the follow-up question, they respond 'another universe that collapsed', to which I ask where that universe came from, and so forth. At the least, it seems to me that the universe must, at some point, undergo a instance of 'from nothing, something' to even be possible to exist.

[Celice]

Besides, I personally find it absurd whenever someone says our universe came from a big bang. Mainly because, when I ask the follow-up question, they respond 'another universe that collapsed', to which I ask where that universe came from, and so forth. At the least, it seems to me that the universe must, at some point, undergo a instance of 'from nothing, something' to even be possible to exist.

That's the human error, the attempt to make meaning or reason. It's hard for people to naturally just accept absurd qualities.

Not quite true. Ethics and morals tend to be affected by religion as well; both in good and bad ways. So in a way, though it is not direct, religion does affect your ethics and morals.

And religion to be affected by philosophy as well--but that doesn't make either directly related. Influence is one thing, but neither is the direct parent of the other.

Because religion can exist without ethics, morality, philosophy, thought: and these without religion, and into however you want to divide these apart.

[Shuuda]

Besides, I personally find it absurd whenever someone says our universe came from a big bang. Mainly because, when I ask the follow-up question, they respond 'another universe that collapsed', to which I ask where that universe came from, and so forth. At the least, it seems to me that the universe must, at some point, undergo a instance of 'from nothing, something' to even be possible to exist.

I don't think is suppose to explain where the universe came from, it explains why we exist in a universe that is expanding. Perhaps you should consider directing your questions towards someone with a lot of education on the subject.

That infinite regression argument doesn't really prove much beyond the fact that we don't know where everything came from. I'm sure the same argument could be used to find that humans don't know everything about anything. Plus, if you were to say that God created everything out of nothing, then the same argument could just be applied again: "Where did God come from?" etc.

[Raven]

If God created the laws of physics, he can break them too. It makes sense in context.

I don't think you realize how offensive that kind of comparison is.

In context, but that's about it.

I know some people get offended by those sorts of comparison, but it's what I think when people talk about a God or Gods. To me it's like a kid getting pissed when you say to them there is no man climbing down the chimney Christmas time and leaving presents under the tree.

Rationalizing the idea of existence itself is absurd, unnatural, and impossible. Actually thinking about matter, it makes less sense and more sense than religion makes less sense and more sense of. Neither are any less absurd. One you just depend on more, and assume is more worthwhile in pursuit (most people, at least).

Someone had said something about religion being ethics and morals you live by--no, that would be a philosophy or tradition. Religion is separated by that 'other' presence.

Religion can answer only with "God" when asked about the beginning of the Universe and everything we know.

You're telling me you formulated a large portion of your religious beliefs at 4:10 in the morning, and never pondered them at any other time?

Yeah he does. That's why he said it. :V

No, my statement about "the richer a country is, the less it believes in religion" is what I thought up on the spot and didn't bother to look into. As you said, America is both rich and a highly religious continent, proving my statement wrong.

I didn't say that to simply set about offending people. I won't apologise for it either, as it's what I believe (when does religion ever apologise for anything?). I simply accept existence and not bother to question why we exist, or how. If there is something like a God, then good for him/her/it. However if (I'll say "he") he really wants people to believe he (or even "they") exist, then they should give physical evidence of their existence. Our Sun being called a God in some cultures and religions is far more believable. Science comes along and shows that it's a massive ball of gas and flames, but it's more of a God than any other God ever has been. Again I state I'm not setting out to offend people. If I do, they're just gonna have to deal with it.

Edited March 26, 2011 by VanguardRaven

[TheEnd]

In context, but that's about it.

I know some people get offended by those sorts of comparison, but it's what I think when people talk about a God or Gods. To me it's like a kid getting pissed when you say to them there is no man climbing down the chimney Christmas time and leaving presents under the tree.

I think you have a rather severe case of not respecting other people's values.

[Raven]

I think you have a rather severe case of not respecting other people's values.

At least in terms of religion, you're probably right. People can believe or do whatever they like, I just don't care, as long as I'm not affected by it.

[eclipse]

At least in terms of religion, you're probably right. People can believe or do whatever they like, I just don't care, as long as I'm not affected by it.

There's a difference between "I don't care" and "I will step on your toes because I can". Please don't cross that line.

[Celice]

Religion can answer only with "God" when asked about the beginning of the Universe and everything we know.

No. The original Buddhism didn't care about origin. It was humanisitic. Moreover, there are numerous religious stories which do not care about creation, but existence. Idols which did not create origin, but came with it, and are equally ambiguous as the rest as existence. Your statement is infinitely provincial and small.

All your comments here are like that so far ._. If's full of all-or-nothing supposition, your supposition. Which is fine--but it shows how limited you are in religious resources :/

Edited March 26, 2011 by Celice

[TheEnd]

At least in terms of religion, you're probably right. People can believe or do whatever they like, I just don't care, as long as I'm not affected by it.

There's a difference between "I don't care" and "I will step on your toes because I can". Please don't cross that line.

As Eclipse said.

It might sound alien to you that religious people take religion (and therefore their respective deities) seriously, but they do. In fact, you might find it useful to know that one of the easiest ways of earning someone's enmity is to shit on their religious beliefs - for instance, comparing them to kids who believe in Santa.

Or you actually might not find it useful at all, since you seem adverse to the idea of cultural diversity. But who knows.

[Raven]

There's a difference between "I don't care" and "I will step on your toes because I can". Please don't cross that line.

I am aware that what I said was unnecessary. I wasn't aiming to "step on toes", but in such a topic it's not easy to avoid doing so.

I think I got the point across that I think the World would be a better place without religion, but at the same time I don't think religion is going anywhere fast.

I didn't intend for this to get derailed into a debate on Gods and religions, so can we try to get back on track?

[Raven]

As Eclipse said.

It might sound alien to you that religious people take religion (and therefore their respective deities) seriously, but they do. In fact, you might find it useful to know that one of the easiest ways of earning someone's enmity is to shit on their religious beliefs - for instance, comparing them to kids who believe in Santa.

Or you actually might not find it useful at all, since you seem adverse to the idea of cultural diversity. But who knows.

I have nothing against cultural diversity, or religion, or the fact that people believe in such things as Gods. I simply just can't comprehend why, but I won't hate on them for doing so. Religion is all well and good as long as it doesn't get in the way of people who are uninterested in it. It would just make the world seem more as one if there were no religious barriers between people.

I didn't intend to start debating on this matter, since I'm uninterested in the subject of religion. I was stating an opinion which ended up being offensive to those who believe in a God or Gods. I'll admit I didn't think about what I said, and should have kept the opinion to myself in such a place. I did not intend to create enemies from saying such things. If I have managed to offend any individuals by saying cetain things that I wrote before, I apologise to you.

[Celice]

It would just make the world seem more as one if there were no religious barriers between people.

Religion has never been a factor between the French and British. They are fine antagonizing one another without religious intentions. Religion has nothing to do with it.

Not everything is governed by religion :/ People are mostly governed by their cultural affections, such as the French-British example (and oh-so many racists/oppressive jokes about the eastern-europe countries being tossed around). Has religion had a hand in a lot of overwhelming events? No shit. But, it's not the largest driving force out there. It can be some of the more devastating influences around, but not the only one.

[Snowy_One]

That's the human error, the attempt to make meaning or reason. It's hard for people to naturally just accept absurd qualities.

I'm afraid I don't quite understand the point of this. What are you saying?

I don't think is suppose to explain where the universe came from, it explains why we exist in a universe that is expanding. Perhaps you should consider directing your questions towards someone with a lot of education on the subject.

That infinite regression argument doesn't really prove much beyond the fact that we don't know where everything came from. I'm sure the same argument could be used to find that humans don't know everything about anything. Plus, if you were to say that God created everything out of nothing, then the same argument could just be applied again: "Where did God come from?" etc.

God, if he exists, is a supernatural entity. As a supernatural entity, it is safe to say he is at least one, if not more, dimensions higher than this universe. As such, the question of where he comes from is basically irrelevant. Besides, this isn't so much me trying to say that God made the universe in so much as it is me trying to say that, somehow, something that would be classified as supernatural resulted in its beginning.

I didn't say that to simply set about offending people. I won't apologise for it either, as it's what I believe (when does religion ever apologise for anything?). I simply accept existence and not bother to question why we exist, or how. If there is something like a God, then good for him/her/it. However if (I'll say "he") he really wants people to believe he (or even "they") exist, then they should give physical evidence of their existence. Our Sun being called a God in some cultures and religions is far more believable. Science comes along and shows that it's a massive ball of gas and flames, but it's more of a God than any other God ever has been. Again I state I'm not setting out to offend people. If I do, they're just gonna have to deal with it.

1) If God gave proof of his existence, that would rob humanity of all faith. We would have no real choice but to accept that he exists; which is the exact opposite of why he made us in the first place. I understand that this is true only with Judaism, Christianity, possibly Islam (I don't know enough about it) and does not apply to all religions as well; though it is fairly clear you are referring to the three Abrahamic religions by your manner of talk.

2) I would think that the fact that humanity has the ability to claim God doesn't exist is what makes us truly unique and better than the angels. It's the one thing that we can do that they cannot. No angel or demon can deny that God exists. They may rebel against him, but they cannot deny him.

At least in terms of religion, you're probably right. People can believe or do whatever they like, I just don't care, as long as I'm not affected by it.

Hear that? We can engage in pedonecrophillia and Vangard won't care; just so long as its not someone connected to him!

Sorry for very belated responses. Was at a friends house. I can see the argument is over, but I wanted to say my thoughts still. Ignore the post.

[Raven]

Hear that? We can engage in pedonecrophillia and Vangard won't care; just so long as its not someone connected to him!

That is not true. To not feel some form of disgust, or at the very least some form of discomfort, upon hearing this happen to anyone would be inhumane.

[Esau of Isaac]

1) If God gave proof of his existence, that would rob humanity of all faith. We would have no real choice but to accept that he exists; which is the exact opposite of why he made us in the first place.

Really? Adam was created unknowing of the existence of God? And never spoke to Him, or knew his existence as a certainty?

That's a colorful interpretation, I guess.

2) I would think that the fact that humanity has the ability to claim God doesn't exist is what makes us truly unique and better than the angels. It's the one thing that we can do that they cannot. No angel or demon can deny that God exists. They may rebel against him, but they cannot deny him.

Why not?

[Snowy_One]

Really? Adam was created unknowing of the existence of God? And never spoke to Him, or knew his existence as a certainty?

That's a colorful interpretation, I guess.

Adam was the original man. When he was created, he was within the garden of Eden, a place in which not only was there no denying the influence of God but also that he needed to be cast out from so that mankind could grow.

In the Bible, aside from the times that humanity has been in danger, later switched to Abraham's decedents, God does not really communicate or appear frequently. He only does so when the Israelite people are threatened with extinction or something similar.

Why not?

Angels and demons are supernatural beings, created for the express purpose of serving God (the demons being angels that rebelled against him). As such, it seems very likely to me that only a angel with more than one screw loose in their head would be capable of denying God since confirming his existence is as easily done as moseying on over to Heaven (remember that Lucifer can still enter inside despite being outcast; book of Job) and sitting down with a coffee in hand and asking God if he exists to which he replies 'I'm pretty sure I do'.

[Mikethfc]

In the Bible, aside from the times that humanity has been in danger, later switched to Abraham's decedents, God does not really communicate or appear frequently. He only does so when the Israelite people are threatened with extinction or something similar.

Alright where does the holocaust fit into this?

On topic whilst I'm not religous I wouldn't like it to become extinct, it seems to be a potent means of escapism if you look at Niemöller, Dietrich Bonhoeffer or the White Rose it does seem to help people do far more than just cope with our meaningless existence.

As for the fundies, generally its those running the institutions whom are responsible so were religion to vanish I'm sure they would find another means to spur on their enflammatory rhetoric.

[ReformBlade]

To those who hate religion and all of its supposed extremism, isn't wishing/hoping it to be gone extreme?

To those who hate religion because it forces itself onto people, and it causes 'all too real' consequences... Really? Are you saying if religion wasn't the reason it'd be OK to be extreme?

Seriously, there's a lot I want to say on this matter, but I frankly don't know where to start.

[Snowy_One]

Alright where does the holocaust fit into this?

Even if Hitler had been 100% effective in the holocaust (which he wasn't thanks to the sacrifices of many brave soldiers and undercover heroes), he would not have eliminated the Jewish people as plenty lived in nations beyond his control. Not saying that there was not a huge portion of Jewish people who would have died or that the loss was, somehow, less tragic; but as a whole the Jewish religion and tradition would have survived. Not to mention that, if you believe Jesus was the son of God, there is more to it now than just the survival of the Jewish people, but the Christian people as well (I don't know enough about Islam to make a judgment call there). Many of the old testament accounts where God intervened had the Jewish people in danger of being either completely wiped out or losing their identity as a nation and being absorbed into the dominate/neighboring nations.

Besides, not every instance of intervention needs to be a massive pillar of fire descending down to incinerate Nazi's/Assyrians. I personally like to imagine God using a lot of subtle manipulations, possibly encouraging people to do things that they would not have normally considered.

[Celice]

Why then would God not be interested in protecting the Igbo from British invasion? Or numerous tribes from going extinct because their environments were being trampled on by other nations?

One can't suppose an intent behind God--we are too small to notice such a thing. To say otherwise you make you be against God, since, as we know from Eden, God abhors anything which comes close to his status.

Adam was the original man. When he was created, he was within the garden of Eden, a place in which not only was there no denying the influence of God but also that he needed to be cast out from so that mankind could grow.

Eve was there as well. Both were cast out not for their growth, but because they no longer went with God's ideal viewpoint. Much as Satan and the other angels. God ostracizes on whim--an infinite, boundless entity beyond entity, beyond comprehension, for some matter, felt he should punish.

(it's too bad people are only discussing the limited Christian, and at that, misunderstood Christian, mythology--there's much more exciting and interesting myths than a handbook to being feared and awed.)

[Gaggle of Geese]

Atheist here.

I haven't read the whole thread, but if you choose not to believe in a god, please don't do so hatefully. It gives the rest of us a bad name.

That said, with religion comes fanaticism, and fanaticism I can't stand.

[Esau of Isaac]

Adam was the original man. When he was created, he was within the garden of Eden, a place in which not only was there no denying the influence of God but also that he needed to be cast out from so that mankind could grow.

Can you reliably prove that? Why would reproduction not exist had Adam and Eve not been cast out?

In the Bible, aside from the times that humanity has been in danger, later switched to Abraham's decedents, God does not really communicate or appear frequently. He only does so when the Israelite people are threatened with extinction or something similar.

It doesn't matter, you're still wrong about your claims either way. If you were correct, then God's own people would have been utterly worthless. I mean, I suppose you could argue that given events in the Old Testament, but even despite God's wrathful fury, I'm pretty sure all the work he put around wasn't towards something he viewed to be completely pointless.

Angels and demons are supernatural beings, created for the express purpose of serving God (the demons being angels that rebelled against him). As such, it seems very likely to me that only a angel with more than one screw loose in their head would be capable of denying God since confirming his existence is as easily done as moseying on over to Heaven (remember that Lucifer can still enter inside despite being outcast; book of Job) and sitting down with a coffee in hand and asking God if he exists to which he replies 'I'm pretty sure I do'.

At which point particularly headstrong angels could just say he's not the real god above all, and just a pretender. Just like anyone else that actually runs into God.

[Mikethfc]

At which point particularly headstrong angels could just say he's not the real god above all, and just a pretender. Just like anyone else that actually runs into God.

This reminds me of the His Dark Materials trilogy so much, (mainly Asriel's plan)

[spoiler=Pretty huge spoiler for a pretty awesome plan]

1.Overthrow God, (or the angel that has replaced him)

2.Declare the Republic of Heaven

3.???

4.Profit

Also just because something exists doesn't mean you can't deny their existence, look at the 'Star Wars' prequels, or on a more practical level the Fenians were doing that to British authority from about 1916-1921

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Okay, I'm only going to say this once and don't take this the wrong way,

Firstly, I'm an atheist so no I don't believe in G-d(s) period. Reason being is based upon my free will, knowledge and actions which defines my characteristic as a human being. Because of this, I see no reason for religion to conceptualize my understanding of how the world works as I'm able act and behave.

Secondly, people abide their understanding in the world based on their religious belief, practice, etc. etc. and it ultimately depends on their choice(going back to the ideas of free will). Also, not all religion have a belief in g-d(s) anyways.

I'm not in anyway contradicting myself, but if people are entitled to their belief(s) based on their choice then who are we to determine whats best for others? Why should we care what others believe or don't believe? Personally, people can believe whatever they wanna believe as long as they don't undermine their religious view on me or others.

I'm in no position to debates so I'm finished here.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Namie Amuro

[Gaggle of Geese]

You guys should make sure you aren't getting trolled.

Just sayin'.