-Cynthia- Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I would find it less weird for Tormod/Muarim/Vika to be fighting for laguz rights than Nephenee/Brom/Heather/Haar etc. fighting because...they fought with Ike this one time (for Heather it's about finding new girls or something idk)? The joining of most of the characters in 3-2 is rather strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I think that this thread belongs in the Hall of Fame, in a special wing that honors those who make pithy remarks that are completely wrong. The plot of this game isn't Shakespeare or anything, but it's a lot deeper and more nuanced than people are giving it credit for, seriously. I agree. I like the way that FE9 and FE10 present different sides of Order vs. Chaos. In FE9, you are fighting a chaotic enemy in Ashnard who wishes to have a world of endless war where only the strong survive. In FE10, you are fighting ordered enemies, in the Begnion Senate who wish to subjugate the rest of the world, in Ludveck in Part 2, and finally in Ashera/Sephiran who want to bring a complete end to war by turning everyone to stone. I think it's logical to have a unified bird clan. Their numbers have been severely reduced, so joining together for a common purpose in the revitalized Serenes Forest makes a lot of sense, especially under someone like Tibarn. I wonder how they solved the whole 'hunting in the forest' thing. The Herons would be able to defeat the Hawks and Ravens in a fight anyway (just take infinite turns and chip away with Cards) It's one thing to be sympathetic to the plight of enslaved laguz, it's something else entirely to throw down in a war. Tormod was perfectly happy to help out Ike and co. in the Mad King's War, even before there was any evidence that Ashnard was behind the Serenes Massacre. Clearly, they are a little bit beyond being merely 'sympathetic' to the laguz, and certainly, I'd think they'd help out Ike and co. a second time in a war they indirectly started (by escorting Nailah and Rafiel to Gallia), against an enemy they know have engaged in laguz slavery and are responsible for the Serenes Massacre. Certainly, they have far more reason to support the Laguz Alliance than Haar and co., and probably more reason than the Greil Mercenaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikethfc Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Neassala is even worse since he goes and kills almost all the hawks back in Phoenecis Yeah apart from in reality it wouldn't mean all that many were killed as most of the adult men would already be in the army, its not like they need to stay in Phoenicis for the harvest or keep factory production running smoothly. Tormod was perfectly happy to help out Ike and co. in the Mad King's War, even before there was any evidence that Ashnard was behind the Serenes Massacre. Clearly, they are a little bit beyond being merely 'sympathetic' to the laguz, and certainly, I'd think they'd help out Ike and co. a second time in a war they indirectly started (by escorting Nailah and Rafiel to Gallia), against an enemy they know have engaged in laguz slavery and are responsible for the Serenes Massacre. Certainly, they have far more reason to support the Laguz Alliance than Haar and co., and probably more reason than the Greil Mercenaries. Ranulf went up to Ike and asked for help, that's the standard way to recruit somebody in FE. Plus Ike says at some point that Begnion are in the wrong for murdering that messenger. That and Ike probably thinks those Begnion senators are dickheads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Yeah apart from in reality it wouldn't mean all that many were killed as most of the adult men would already be in the army, its not like they need to stay in Phoenicis for the harvest or keep factory production running smoothly. Plus, as we all know, there are no female Hawks. PROVE ME WRONG Ranulf went up to Ike and asked for help, that's the standard way to recruit somebody in FE. Plus Ike says at some point that Begnion are in the wrong for murdering that messenger. That and Ike probably thinks those Begnion senators are dickheads The point is that all of these reasons could easily be applied, and then some, to Tormod and co., yet they drop off the face of the earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silith Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Ike fights for his... let's not go there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 They didn't leave because of Izuka, they were taking Nailah and Rafiel to Gallia, I think. Still doesn't explain why they can't help the laguz alliance in Part 3, though. From the dialogue in part 4, it looks more like IS forgot about Tormod and co. and threw them in at the last minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I would find it less weird for Tormod/Muarim/Vika to be fighting for laguz rights than Nephenee/Brom/Heather/Haar etc. fighting because...they fought with Ike this one time (for Heather it's about finding new girls or something idk)? The joining of most of the characters in 3-2 is rather strange. Well it's pretty straightforward. Ike asked them to come, via Muston. End of story, that's how it happened. Honestly, Nephenee and Brom have the same reason to help Ranulf that Ike does: Gallia helped Crimea in its hour of need, they are returning the favor. Heather is definitely a little weird, though. I wonder how they solved the whole 'hunting in the forest' thing. The Herons would be able to defeat the Hawks and Ravens in a fight anyway (just take infinite turns and chip away with Cards) The same way it always ends when it's a bajillion to four, and the four are pacifists. Spoiler alert: circle of life. Tormod was perfectly happy to help out Ike and co. in the Mad King's War, even before there was any evidence that Ashnard was behind the Serenes Massacre. Clearly, they are a little bit beyond being merely 'sympathetic' to the laguz, and certainly, I'd think they'd help out Ike and co. a second time in a war they indirectly started (by escorting Nailah and Rafiel to Gallia), against an enemy they know have engaged in laguz slavery and are responsible for the Serenes Massacre. Certainly, they have far more reason to support the Laguz Alliance than Haar and co., and probably more reason than the Greil Mercenaries. Who said that the Serenes Massacre or even the laguz in general had anything to do with it? Long story short, Tormod helped Ike because the Greil Mercenaries helped him take out Oliver. Even Ike was surprised that Tormod and Maurim stayed with him for the whole ordeal. In Radiant Dawn, maybe they didn't stick around in Gallia. Why would they? They don't live there. From what we know in the game, they went back to the desert after Part 1, and Yune summoned them back into the fray (in a dream) after everyone else got turned to stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikethfc Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Plus, as we all know, there are no female Hawks. PROVE ME WRONG I think they say that they were all dead except the women, children and the elderly. The point is that all of these reasons could easily be applied, and then some, to Tormod and co., yet they drop off the face of the earth. Could be something to do with Tormod and co living in Begnion, if the laguz allliance lose then they'd be branded traitors and they would probably have to flee to Gallia too stopping any more possible emancipation raids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 The same way it always ends when it's a bajillion to four, and the four are pacifists. Spoiler alert: circle of life. The Herons are only pacifists when you don't give them cards. They're perfectly happy to slaughter anything with a Card. Who said that the Serenes Massacre or even the laguz in general had anything to do with it? Long story short, Tormod helped Ike because the Greil Mercenaries helped him take out Oliver. Even Ike was surprised that Tormod and Maurim stayed with him for the whole ordeal. In Radiant Dawn, maybe they didn't stick around in Gallia. Why would they? They don't live there. From what we know in the game, they went back to the desert after Part 1, and Yune summoned them back into the fray (in a dream) after everyone else got turned to stone. So when there's concrete evidence that the Begnion Senate has been keeping laguz slaves and committed the greatest atrocity against laguz ever, and a massive war erupts between the Senate and their former allies in Crimea and Gallia, and the war spills over into Gallia and the Senate make no pretense that they're not out to completely destroy the laguz, and their Empress and Prime Minister are imprisoned for flimsy reasons and their former allies in Daein start engaging in laguz hunts, the response of the LEA is to just sit around in the desert and do nothing? Tormod and co. were perfectly happy to travel to Daein to help out Sothe, and they were perfectly happy to escort Rafiel to Gallia, but when World War 3 breaks out, suddenly it's not their fight and they don't care. Ike The Laguz Alliance is in the right, Ranulf. The senate is actively ignoring you, and worse, they're murdering your messengers. Why shouldn't we help you get the senate's attention? I'm sure my people understand. Besides, I would never abandon a friend in need. That is the entirety of Ike's rationale for helping the Laguz Alliance. Why don't the LEA care? The LEA are in Gallia at the start of Part 3, presumably. How do they even get back into Begnion from their position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Heather is definitely a little weird, though. I disagree. I think Heather's reasons are totally legitimate. Who wouldn't want to be on the side that has pretty girls as opposed to smelly old Senators? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Cold Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I think they say that they were all dead except the women, children and the elderly. Could be something to do with Tormod and co living in Begnion, if the laguz allliance lose then they'd be branded traitors and they would probably have to flee to Gallia too stopping any more possible emancipation raids. Then what is stopping them from staying with the DBs. Helping out "former" (part 1) allies and still assisting their nation. (altho in timeline sequence, it would make sense to let them join AFTER they know about the BP. So they can convince them to stay on their side (their still attacking Laguz, they would need a reason to join the DB) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whase Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 The Herons are only pacifists when you don't give them cards. They're perfectly happy to slaughter anything with a Card. keep gameplay-wise and story-wise seperate. there are many things you can do that would go against a unit's beliefs. So when there's concrete evidence that the Begnion Senate has been keeping laguz slaves and committed the greatest atrocity against laguz ever, and a massive war erupts between the Senate and their former allies in Crimea and Gallia, and the war spills over into Gallia and the Senate make no pretense that they're not out to completely destroy the laguz, and their Empress and Prime Minister are imprisoned for flimsy reasons and their former allies in Daein start engaging in laguz hunts, the response of the LEA is to just sit around in the desert and do nothing? Tormod and co. were perfectly happy to travel to Daein to help out Sothe, and they were perfectly happy to escort Rafiel to Gallia, but when World War 3 breaks out, suddenly it's not their fight and they don't care. That is the entirety of Ike's rationale for helping the Laguz Alliance. Why don't the LEA care? The LEA are in Gallia at the start of Part 3, presumably. How do they even get back into Begnion from their position? starting a war doesn't take 1 day. I believe the LEA went back to Gallia to pick up their old jobs, because they didn't want to wait around until the war would finally start. Ike appearing again was the start of the war. With the GM the Laguz alliance was confident enough to start the war. (I think) I disagree. I think Heather's reasons are totally legitimate. Who wouldn't want to be on the side that has pretty girls as opposed to smelly old Senators? I think she just has a little crush on Nephenee. But hey, who wouldn't, right? And she isn't exactly afraid for some clumsy men with pointy sticks.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanarkin Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) I think she just has a little crush on Nephenee. But hey, who wouldn't, right? And she isn't exactly afraid for some clumsy men with pointy sticks.... And a crush on Ilyana, probably mia and mist too. Maybe Titania. While the Begnion army has Sigrun and Tanith.... Which Heather doesn't meet. She only see generic male units as her enemies. I don't think she likes pointy sticks I'm unsure if you are against what Fox said or not. Edited May 23, 2011 by Jhen Mohran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 So when there's concrete evidence that the Begnion Senate has been keeping laguz slaves and committed the greatest atrocity against laguz ever, and a massive war erupts between the Senate and their former allies in Crimea and Gallia, and the war spills over into Gallia and the Senate make no pretense that they're not out to completely destroy the laguz, and their Empress and Prime Minister are imprisoned for flimsy reasons and their former allies in Daein start engaging in laguz hunts, the response of the LEA is to just sit around in the desert and do nothing? Tormod and co. were perfectly happy to travel to Daein to help out Sothe, and they were perfectly happy to escort Rafiel to Gallia, but when World War 3 breaks out, suddenly it's not their fight and they don't care. Tormod is more of a freedom fighter than a soldier. If you look at the things that he's actively done: - freeing enslaved laguz in Begnion - fighting against Daein aggressors with the Greil Mercenaries - helping Sothe investigate/inform the Apostle about Begnion oppression in Daein - escorting Nailah and crew to Gallia ... you'll notice a common thread there: helping the downtrodden, and those in need. The conflict between Begnion and the Laguz Alliance is a political one between sovereign nations. Also, whatever you might think of the Begnion Senate, the fact of the matter is that the Laguz Alliance invaded first. Tormod doesn't have a dog in that race. That is the entirety of Ike's rationale for helping the Laguz Alliance. Why don't the LEA care? The LEA are in Gallia at the start of Part 3, presumably. How do they even get back into Begnion from their position? What of it? Ranulf asked Ike for help, he didn't ask Tormod. I'll bet you that if Ike had contacted them, they'd have helped. You can tell by Tormod's reaction to Ike in 4-4 that they hadn't seen in other in ages. And why would you assume that the LEA stuck around in Gallia? They did what they set out to do (escort Nailah and Rafiel), they don't live there, and it took time to set up the meeting of leaders and decide upon a course of action in the first place. Or do you think that they showed up, told their story, and Cain decides to mobilize his entire country into action by dinnertime, unilaterally volunteering the bird tribes while he was at it? I disagree. I think Heather's reasons are totally legitimate. Who wouldn't want to be on the side that has pretty girls as opposed to smelly old Senators? This is a good point, and my infraction is serious enough that I may have to have my Typical Adult Male membership card suspended for a short time as punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinDuh Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 My weird thing is that some trivial stuff about the in between years wasn't kept consistent over the two games. The worst of these is Marcia, Astrid, and Makalov. In the Epilogue of PoR, Marcia says she's going back to the Begnion pegasus knights, Astrid said she wanted to enter the service of the Begnion Knights, and Makalov said he wanted to return to Begnion to "start a new leaf". They did do pretty well with keeping Ilyana and the Merchants along with Zihark going to Daein... But Marcia, Astrid, and Makalov annoyed me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charpig Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 My weird thing is that some trivial stuff about the in between years wasn't kept consistent over the two games. The worst of these is Marcia, Astrid, and Makalov. In the Epilogue of PoR, Marcia says she's going back to the Begnion pegasus knights, Astrid said she wanted to enter the service of the Begnion Knights, and Makalov said he wanted to return to Begnion to "start a new leaf". They did do pretty well with keeping Ilyana and the Merchants along with Zihark going to Daein... But Marcia, Astrid, and Makalov annoyed me. Yeah, I noticed that too. My only guess is oversight on the part of the developers. Also, the Black Knight became a lot less villainous in between PoR and RD. I found it weird that his armor lost his blessing, but it is never explained why. Also, the BK shows up to help Micaiah in 3-6 and 3-7 but afterwards, he is nowhere to be seen in her army. Micaiah and Sothe have zero reaction to this. Wouldn't you be worried if some super powerful guy left your army for no reason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliban of Sycorax Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 There's also three chapters where Daein doesn't exist. Assumedly all of the events in 3-8, 3-9, and 3-10, and also pre-3-11 give the Burger King time to say why he's leaving. Also he appears before 3-8 telling his men to not hunt the Laguz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinDuh Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Yeah, I noticed that too. My only guess is oversight on the part of the developers. Also, the Black Knight became a lot less villainous in between PoR and RD. I found it weird that his armor lost his blessing, but it is never explained why. Also, the BK shows up to help Micaiah in 3-6 and 3-7 but afterwards, he is nowhere to be seen in her army. Micaiah and Sothe have zero reaction to this. Wouldn't you be worried if some super powerful guy left your army for no reason? The BK became less villainous because the story called for it. I assume he's had his armour for a hell of a long time, probably since he either A) began studying under Greil, or B) Met Sephiran/Lehran. It is noted that the Goddess's blessing is weakened by blessing a lot of things at once, and it could also just be interpreted as the Goddess could have blessed the armour and many of the same kind(such as the armour the BK presents Ashnard) and could have weakened with age... Of course.. Ragnell and Alondite are still blessed and they're the swords Altina used. As for Zelgius/BK, one should look at his status and in Begnion and his connection to Sephiran. Sephiran is essentially just using Zelgius to control Daein/Dawn Brigade while simultaneously making sure Daein is liberated. Daein must be liberated in order to begin a war involving all nations(what I assume to be Sephiran's master plan), so that everyone can turn to stone(Damn you Sephiran...) Zelgius needed to leave Daein so that he could lead a war against the Laguz Alliance, which Sephiran knew would soon include all nations(and it did). Micaiah and Sothe ARE worried about the BK and Izuka, both who left soon after liberation of Daein(both who most likely went back to Begnion to start the Laguz Alliance War). Another thing about FE9-FE10 character changes is indeed Sephiran. He is supposed to be the smartest, nicest, most amazing and lovable man on the entire continent. Yet RD comes along and all the sudden it seems like he's the mastermind behind everything. He is the most devious man in the whole world. Fooling the Begnion senators while simultaneously fooling Sanaki... I hated this guy by the end of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freohr Datia Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Have nothing to say about those previous debates... And my PoR broke some time ago so I forget a lot of what went on in it. Mostly when I read this title I was just thinking about how Fiona.... I just... don't know. I really don't like using her because, either it's me, or she dies too easily. And I guess she seemed kinda... random? She appears in that one chapter and seems to have a small role in that. Otherwise she doesn't seem important for anything at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinDuh Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Have nothing to say about those previous debates... And my PoR broke some time ago so I forget a lot of what went on in it. Mostly when I read this title I was just thinking about how Fiona.... I just... don't know. I really don't like using her because, either it's me, or she dies too easily. And I guess she seemed kinda... random? She appears in that one chapter and seems to have a small role in that. Otherwise she doesn't seem important for anything at all. She dies too easily to train, and putting the trouble to train her does not pull through in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 It is noted that the Goddess's blessing is weakened by blessing a lot of things at once, and it could also just be interpreted as the Goddess could have blessed the armour and many of the same kind(such as the armour the BK presents Ashnard) and could have weakened with age... Or it could be because someone gave him the Wicked Witch of the East treatment, and dropped a house castle on him at the end of PoR. Just throwing that out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 My weird thing is that some trivial stuff about the in between years wasn't kept consistent over the two games. The worst of these is Marcia, Astrid, and Makalov. In the Epilogue of PoR, Marcia says she's going back to the Begnion pegasus knights, Astrid said she wanted to enter the service of the Begnion Knights, and Makalov said he wanted to return to Begnion to "start a new leaf". They did do pretty well with keeping Ilyana and the Merchants along with Zihark going to Daein... But Marcia, Astrid, and Makalov annoyed me. I always assumed that Makalov wasn't able to hold down a job in Begnion, so him and Marcia went to Crimea and Astrid simply followed Makalov. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 I always assumed that Makalov wasn't able to hold down a job in Begnion, so him and Marcia went to Crimea and Astrid simply followed Makalov. I think we can all agree that Makalov will always be the cause of desertion by many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I just forgot to mention this, and it popped in my head today: Ike A dream? Tormod Yeah. Shortly after that light turned everyone to stone, I had a really strange dream. I don't remember it very well, but it was like there was a voice in my head, whispering encouragement. When I woke up, I knew what I had to do. I knew that everyone who hadn't been petrified was heading to the Tower of Guidance, and from there we'd all be saved. Vika It was an oracle from the heavens, I just know it...So, we followed the vision out of the desert. So... Yeah... They went back to the Grann desert... But why? They should help the alliance... =/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuglyoshi Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) They should have joined between 3-5 and 3-10 at the latest, and those chapters would make sense for them to join. Edited July 13, 2011 by Yuglyoshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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