QUINTESSENCE? DONT UNDERSTAND

[Othin]

It's not a stretch of the imagination to say that Sonia seduced Brendan and clouded his better judgement. She's a morph with a specific purpose, mainly to be a manipulator and a seductress. She's also a powerful sage, which means she could've used magic to help her get close to Brendan. Just like how Ephidel has a certain power over people, Sonia also has similar abilities.

There's no evidence of magic having a use anything like that in FE7, and again, Brendan is indicated to have strong feelings about his morals; it's difficult to imagine him caving so easily.

@Darin and Ephidel: Been a short while since this has been discussed, but here's how I see it.

The complaint that you and Banzai have made is that it makes no sense for Darin to attack Caelin when he could attack Ostia instead since a conflict between Laus and Caelin would generate less quintessence than a conflict between Ostia and Laus. But consider this. Darin may be Ephidel's puppet for all intents and purposes, but he's not suicidal. Attacking Ostia with such a small force would pretty much be akin to killing himself since Darin lacks the manpower to attack Ostia. This is something that Darin would not do, no matter how much Ephidel would attempt to convince him. Keep in mind that attacking Ostia wouldn't make that much sense for Ephidel either there is a good chance that Darin would get killed there and that would ruin his plans. Basically the costs of attacking Ostia completely outweigh the benefits. Attacking Caelin is pretty much the next best thing.

See, the problem here is that any way you look at it, attacking Caelin is suicidal too. It's just going to get Ostia and other territories involved, quashing the rebellion before it could truly even begin.

Ephidel didn't need Darin for any purpose other than starting wars. If he just used Darin for that purpose in invading Ostia and doing enough damage to get the rest of Lycia involved, that would have been all Ephidel needed Darin to do. Notably, he didn't even use him for that purpose; Ephidel just called Darin to take over Caelin then pull out, causing nothing big to happen whatsoever.

All Brendan marrying Sonia means is that he's somewhat naive and can be tricked by someone who appears to want to be good. It's hardly a plot hole; that actually goes with his founding the Black Fang, an organization based on a somewhat naive ideal. It'd be easy enough to make someone like that believe that you want to change your ways when you really don't. There's absolutely nothing in the story that suggests that it's even remotely impossible for Pascal and Jerme to get into the Black Fang. The only reason you think it's a plot hole is because the game doesn't spell it out for you.

Pretending to want to be good shouldn't matter when what you actually do is just evil, which was true for all three of them. If Brendan just didn't take enough note of that, it's just another "bad guys are stupid" excuse that makes for a boring story. The Black Fang could only conceivably function if it was good at getting information, which apparently it is, at least after Nergal takes over. Such information would not have missed such crucial facts about them. If the Black Fang can find out what way Hector is headed out of the castle when almost no one knew he was even leaving, they can find out about a massacre Pascal committed at least before allowing him into their upper ranks.

I think this is a plot hole not because of what isn't shown, but because of what is shown.

[-Cynthia-]

There's no evidence of magic having a use anything like that in FE7, and again, Brendan is indicated to have strong feelings about his morals; it's difficult to imagine him caving so easily.

Brendan does seem to care about his morals, but he also seems oblivious to what is going on with Sonia until the moment where she kills him. It's a bit hard to imagine the leader of a well-organized group of assassins being so easily manipulated, but I don't think we see enough of Brendan to make the judgment that this is OOC or not.

See, the problem here is that any way you look at it, attacking Caelin is suicidal too. It's just going to get Ostia and other territories involved, quashing the rebellion before it could truly even begin.

Ephidel didn't need Darin for any purpose other than starting wars. If he just used Darin for that purpose in invading Ostia and doing enough damage to get the rest of Lycia involved, that would have been all Ephidel needed Darin to do. Notably, he didn't even use him for that purpose; Ephidel just called Darin to take over Caelin then pull out, causing nothing big to happen whatsoever.

Perhaps Ephidel figured that attacking Caelin in and of itself would be sufficient and that's why he didn't bother with starting a full rebellion? We see that Nergal has enough quintessence by Dragon's Gate even without the rebellion (granted Eliwood and co. killing the Black Fang everywhere probably helped).

Pretending to want to be good shouldn't matter when what you actually do is just evil, which was true for all three of them. If Brendan just didn't take enough note of that, it's just another "bad guys are stupid" excuse that makes for a boring story. The Black Fang could only conceivably function if it was good at getting information, which apparently it is, at least after Nergal takes over. Such information would not have missed such crucial facts about them. If the Black Fang can find out what way Hector is headed out of the castle when almost no one knew he was even leaving, they can find out about a massacre Pascal committed at least before allowing him into their upper ranks.

I think this is a plot hole not because of what isn't shown, but because of what is shown.

Well the Black Fang did notice eventually, I don't think Pascal sneaking into the organization is that implausible (assassin organizations and background checks may not go hand in hand). Though I suppose that brings up the question of why they jailed him and didn't just kill him.

[OrangeCrush980]

For the whole Laus vs. Caelin thing, its possible that Ephidel just wanted to create a distraction for Eliwood and co. so that Nergal would have more time to prepare the ritual. Its later revealed that Nergal discovered that the rebellion would've been pointless anyway since Elbert and his knights had enough quintessence, so its entirely possible that Nergal discovered this sometime around chapter 14 and ordered Ephidel to manipulate Darin into creating a distraction with his troops to buy more time. Its worth noting that at the end of chapter 16(H), this is pretty much all that Ephidel is concerned with:

Ephidel:

You're exactly right. Our plans may have gone drastically awry, but as long as we have the master's power behind us, we cannot be defeated. We'd do well to leave now, before those meddlesome worms arrive. You will leave everyone from Laus behind. We will use them to delay our foe.

Ephidel:

While Eliwood is occupied, finish off Marquess Caelin and hide the body. The enemy will waste precious time searching for him.

[bottlegnomes]

Pretending to want to be good shouldn't matter when what you actually do is just evil, which was true for all three of them. If Brendan just didn't take enough note of that, it's just another "bad guys are stupid" excuse that makes for a boring story. The Black Fang could only conceivably function if it was good at getting information, which apparently it is, at least after Nergal takes over. Such information would not have missed such crucial facts about them. If the Black Fang can find out what way Hector is headed out of the castle when almost no one knew he was even leaving, they can find out about a massacre Pascal committed at least before allowing him into their upper ranks.

I think this is a plot hole not because of what isn't shown, but because of what is shown.

Nergal uses his morphs to gather information. Brendan didn't have morphs at his disposal. How is it unlikely that he didn't know about the actions of a man who lives half way across the continent from him? As for why he's in prison, you brought up the whole thing about how life's respected. Obviously Brendan is a moral man, so why would he be any less likely to care about human life than anyone else? So, given that, if he could keep someone from hurting people without killing him or her why wouldn't he?

[Aethereal]

On the Sonia subject, can some one explain to me why her fooling Brendan isn't believable? We're given no indication that he knows she's such a bitch evil, and plenty of intelligent men have been blind to the women they lust after's flaws.

[-Cynthia-]

Nergal uses his morphs to gather information. Brendan didn't have morphs at his disposal. How is it unlikely that he didn't know about the actions of a man who lives half way across the continent from him? As for why he's in prison, you brought up the whole thing about how life's respected. Obviously Brendan is a moral man, so why would he be any less likely to care about human life than anyone else? So, given that, if he could keep someone from hurting people without killing him or her why wouldn't he?

The 'law of the Fang' killing anyone who fails their missions. Now I suppose it's possible that this law was only introduced when Sonia was, but then you think Brendan/Lloyd/Linus would complain a bit more about killing off Fang members.

[Acacia Sgt]

The 'law of the Fang' killing anyone who fails their missions. Now I suppose it's possible that this law was only introduced when Sonia was, but then you think Brendan/Lloyd/Linus would complain a bit more about killing off Fang members.

Although, what Pascal did wasn't failing an order, just randomly killed people. Now true, that does goes against what the Black Fang stood for at the time...

[1st Mate Bob]

There's no evidence of magic having a use anything like that in FE7, and again, Brendan is indicated to have strong feelings about his morals; it's difficult to imagine him caving so easily.

Let's take a look at Sonia real quick, shall we?

[spoiler=hawt morph]

Now, regardless of YOUR opinion on what a beautiful/seductive/whatever woman is, you really cannot argue that this wasn't her entire purpose. You can't say "because this person holds his morals high means he cannot be swayed by sexual feelings" because it's goddamn human nature to fall victim to such things. If "morals" kept people from straying from their duties then the Christian life would be a helluva lot easier and no one would need to confess. (No, I am NOT trying to bring religion into this discussion, I'm just using it as an example.)

Anyway, if basic human instinct eludes you and you want actual dialogue to "prove" that Brenden was swayed, this is the best I can get you.

[spoiler=The beginning of 26x(E):]Brendan:

…Sonia! Where are you, Sonia?! Sonia, I must speak… Hm? Who's that?

Sonia:

… Oh, well… I suppose it's best I was done with you anyway. Hee hee… Those annoying brothers were all that prevented me from acting sooner.

Brendan:

Sonia…you…

Sonia:

I got close to you so that I could take control of the Black Fang. Take a look around you. Not a familiar face to be seen, is there? I've been replacing them one by one… Hee hee. They're all Lord Nergal's puppets. His morphs!!

Brendan:

So…you've betrayed me.

Sonia:

You've finally noticed… You're a fool, Brendan Reed! Your own sons suspected me right from the beginning. Every minute I spent with you, every caress… It was loathsome!! It was all for Lord Nergal. All to control the Four Fangs. Now it's over. Die for me now, will you? Die for your beloved wife!

Brendan:

Sonia! You inhuman monster!!!

(Brendan and Sonia exchange blows)

Brendan:

Aaargh… Lloyd… Linus… Forgive your… foolish…father……

See, the problem here is that any way you look at it, attacking Caelin is suicidal too. It's just going to get Ostia and other territories involved, quashing the rebellion before it could truly even begin.

Ephidel didn't need Darin for any purpose other than starting wars. If he just used Darin for that purpose in invading Ostia and doing enough damage to get the rest of Lycia involved, that would have been all Ephidel needed Darin to do. Notably, he didn't even use him for that purpose; Ephidel just called Darin to take over Caelin then pull out, causing nothing big to happen whatsoever.

Please take a look at my older post on this matter and let me know what you think. (you may have already responded to someone else who said something similar, sorry if that's the case)

[Edit to fix faulty links and such]

Edited August 2, 2011 by 1st Mate Bob

[-Cynthia-]

Although, what Pascal did wasn't failing an order, just randomly killed people. Now true, that does goes against what the Black Fang stood for at the time...

Yeah technically. I guess the point is that 'death for failure' doesn't really indicate that Brendan is merciful to those he perceives of wrongdoing (he also founded an assassin's guild to kill people he thought was wrong, Brendan Reed is not shy about taking lives).

Edited August 2, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[eclipse]

So then this brings other flaws to the attention of people who care. What's the problem, in that case?

Again, if it's not for you, that's fine; no one will tell you that it should be. Just realize that it's meaningful for others here, as the responses have shown.

I do not care for people who think their subjective views are better than everyone else's. I don't care if that's your intent, that's how you and Banzai are coming across. If you want to fix this, then get it through your collective skulls that this is a GAME before a story, and as such, the story isn't gonna be the next big classic. Flaws will exist. It is okay for these flaws to exist.

If you think you are in a position to judge writing, then you'd better damn well be able to produce it on your own (and none of this using another work as an example crap; create your own amazing story, and post it for others to critique). It is far easier to point out the flaws in someone else's work than to create your own flawless work.

[Agro]

If you think you are in a position to judge writing, then you'd better damn well be able to produce it on your own (and none of this using another work as an example crap; create your own amazing story, and post it for others to critique). It is far easier to point out the flaws in someone else's work than to create your own flawless work.

Oh come now, don't pull ye olde "let's see you do better" - that's just a cheap way of trying to discredit someone's criticisms.

[eclipse]

Oh come now, don't pull ye olde "let's see you do better" - that's just a cheap way of trying to discredit someone's criticisms.

I write. That's why I know what's it's like to come up with a story.

[Mekkah]

On the subject of Sonia fooling Brendan, I think Jan tells Nino after Night of Farewells that Brendan did suspect Sonia and had her investigated, and had someone go back to Nino's old home to find a medallion or something. I'm not 100% sure on this and the Game Script is like impossible to find, but that's just more weirdness in FE7's plot: how can Brendan be so surprised at Sonia when he was already suspicious?

[1st Mate Bob]

I write. That's why I know what's it's like to come up with a story.

However, by your logic that means unless you are involved in the medium, you aren't allowed to critique it. That's like saying I cannot judge an actor's performance simply because I can't pull off that character either, or saying someone who isn't a musician can't criticize music.

It works in reverse, too. If you don't think people like Banzai or Othin are "allowed" to shoot down a story, that means they wouldn't be allowed to praise one either. They'd be forced to have no opinion, simply because they haven't written a story themselves.

On the subject of Sonia fooling Brendan, I think Jan tells Nino after Night of Farewells that Brendan did suspect Sonia and had her investigated, and had someone go back to Nino's old home to find a medallion or something. I'm not 100% sure on this and the Game Script is like impossible to find, but that's just more weirdness in FE7's plot: how can Brendan be so surprised at Sonia when he was already suspicious?

Here you go.

Jan:

It belonged to your real mother. The commander never fully trusted Sonia. He had his agents investigate her past. He uncovered much… Like where you'd come from. He was able to speak to a woman who worked in your house. When he told her about you, she wept with joy. She asked that you be given this.

EDIT: He's talking about a pendant, like you mentioned. Just so that's clear.

Edited August 2, 2011 by 1st Mate Bob

[Mekkah]

Thanks for that. Now seriously, why do you marry someone you don't trust completely?

[DragonBladeSniper]

Man I only noticed a small fraction of these plot holes/problems in my experiences with FE7. o.o Even though I really like FE7, I have to admit the plot is kind of messed up after reading this topic. I'd love to see more plot discussions about all the other games, pretty interesting to go through an entire game's plot with others.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

so did the game just contradict itself with the whole "did Brandon really love sonia or not" "and if not then why would he marry her".

aie aie aie this game hurts my head trying to figure out all the actions that contradict itself.

[bottlegnomes]

The 'law of the Fang' killing anyone who fails their missions. Now I suppose it's possible that this law was only introduced when Sonia was, but then you think Brendan/Lloyd/Linus would complain a bit more about killing off Fang members.

It was, Legault and Matthew's supports show this.

[Lord Raven]

I write. That's why I know what's it's like to come up with a story.

And people will still criticize regardless of how good they are at writing. You're allowed to criticize a written work regardless of talent.

I feel like this can be explained quite easily by "Brendan really loves to fuck." Whenever Brendan expressed any degree of mistrust towards Sonia, she seduced him and they had another "caress" session. Obviously this didn't apply to Linus and Lloyd because they're either gay or not as horny (old people tend to be hornier and she'd probably not have much to take from them -- they distrusted her but didn't strike her down). Could've also been a bunch of extortion going on too, like Sonia (she IS powerful after all) vowing to kill a bunch of Brendan's men if he didn't comply with her wishes... after the initial attraction/marriage.

People say they "never trusted/liked someone" when in reality, there was a point where there was a lot of trust and liking (the beginning) but eventually it goes down the gutter. I know some people IRL that are guilty of doing that, by the way. The person was probably just exaggerating, to be honest.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Othin]

Brendan does seem to care about his morals, but he also seems oblivious to what is going on with Sonia until the moment where she kills him. It's a bit hard to imagine the leader of a well-organized group of assassins being so easily manipulated, but I don't think we see enough of Brendan to make the judgment that this is OOC or not.

Looks like Mekkah's find debunks this.

Perhaps Ephidel figured that attacking Caelin in and of itself would be sufficient and that's why he didn't bother with starting a full rebellion? We see that Nergal has enough quintessence by Dragon's Gate even without the rebellion (granted Eliwood and co. killing the Black Fang everywhere probably helped).

If it was that easy to get enough quintessence, Nergal wouldn't have needed to start full wars anyway, and the convoluted methods his Morphs used to cause those wars was what drew so much attention to the Black Fang in the first place, something Nergal would want to avoid.

Well the Black Fang did notice eventually, I don't think Pascal sneaking into the organization is that implausible (assassin organizations and background checks may not go hand in hand). Though I suppose that brings up the question of why they jailed him and didn't just kill him.

It wouldn't take much of a background check to find out about Pascal's massacre. In order to effectively assassinate anyone, you have to be able to get good information about what's going on, and that same information could also be used to make such a basic background check, so why wouldn't they do so? Besides, I would think the massacre would be well-known enough that a background check wouldn't be needed in the first place.

And yes, the matter of him being jailed is another question that's been open since the start of the thread.

For the whole Laus vs. Caelin thing, its possible that Ephidel just wanted to create a distraction for Eliwood and co. so that Nergal would have more time to prepare the ritual. Its later revealed that Nergal discovered that the rebellion would've been pointless anyway since Elbert and his knights had enough quintessence, so its entirely possible that Nergal discovered this sometime around chapter 14 and ordered Ephidel to manipulate Darin into creating a distraction with his troops to buy more time. Its worth noting that at the end of chapter 16(H), this is pretty much all that Ephidel is concerned with:

Ephidel:

You're exactly right. Our plans may have gone drastically awry, but as long as we have the master's power behind us, we cannot be defeated. We'd do well to leave now, before those meddlesome worms arrive. You will leave everyone from Laus behind. We will use them to delay our foe.

Ephidel:

While Eliwood is occupied, finish off Marquess Caelin and hide the body. The enemy will waste precious time searching for him.

There was no reason for time to be a concern. At the time of Ch14, Eliwood's team didn't know anything about the Dread Isle being involved, so if Ephidel had just disappeared to there, there would be no reason for him to expect Eliwood to follow him. Instead, he sticks around, allowing Eliwood's team to follow his actions even more, until they wind up in contact with Leila, who tells them about the Dread Isle, and only because Ephidel didn't bring her with him, instead leaving her behind to waste time that was only a factor because he left her behind. On that note, how'd she get to the Dread Isle so quickly after that, anyway?

Besides, was there anything about the ritual that was shown to take any significant amount of time anyway? I don't know if the game can really be held accountable for that, but it seems odd that time would be such a factor when the only thing that's shown to matter is get quintessence --> use quintessence.

Nergal uses his morphs to gather information. Brendan didn't have morphs at his disposal. How is it unlikely that he didn't know about the actions of a man who lives half way across the continent from him? As for why he's in prison, you brought up the whole thing about how life's respected. Obviously Brendan is a moral man, so why would he be any less likely to care about human life than anyone else? So, given that, if he could keep someone from hurting people without killing him or her why wouldn't he?

As I noted above, assassins need to get information to do their job properly. Even if Brendan may not have had the information gathering powers of the morphs, he had to have people working for him who could get good information before that for the Black Fang to be effective at all. And no, Pascal never lived halfway across the continent from Brendan. The Black Fang is based in Bern, and Pascal was from Bern.

And as others brought up, while the Black Fang had morals, respecting the life of people they had judged as evil was not one of them. The entire purpose of the Black Fang was to kill people they had judged as evil, and based on their actions in the game, that was shown to extend just as clearly to their own members.

On the Sonia subject, can some one explain to me why her fooling Brendan isn't believable? We're given no indication that he knows she's such a bitch evil, and plenty of intelligent men have been blind to the women they lust after's flaws.

It's not about her personality or her working for Nergal in her spare time. The issue is her taking control of the Black Fang right in front of Brendan's face and using them for missions that had no basis in the Black Fang's morals. How could he not notice that?

Let's take a look at Sonia real quick, shall we?

[spoiler=hawt morph]

Now, regardless of YOUR opinion on what a beautiful/seductive/whatever woman is, you really cannot argue that this wasn't her entire purpose. You can't say "because this person holds his morals high means he cannot be swayed by sexual feelings" because it's goddamn human nature to fall victim to such things. If "morals" kept people from straying from their duties then the Christian life would be a helluva lot easier and no one would need to confess. (No, I am NOT trying to bring religion into this discussion, I'm just using it as an example.)

Woman:

Long ago…the lord who ruled this area was an awful man. Every night he would hold an extravagant feast below the castle. Meanwhile, we villagers slowly starved to death. One day, though, it ended. The lord was dead. The Black Fang had given him a death sentence. To us, the Black Fang were heroes. It matters not what others said. That's what makes it so hard… Why did they have to change? Helping you…means that I'm betraying the Black Fang. And yet…I want you to have this.

With a reputation like that, it's impossible to believe Brendan couldn't have gotten what he wanted from someone else. And yet for this one woman, he throws it all away, destroying the Black Fang's reputation to that extent in just a year. Yes, she's hot. But for someone who had killed so many people in the name of the Black Fang's morals to let them crumble just for that is unbelievable. To use the religious analogies, Brendan was not simply a follower of his morals, but a priest of his morals, a monk, a zealot. They're supposed to be better at this stuff.

Anyway, if basic human instinct eludes you and you want actual dialogue to "prove" that Brenden was swayed, this is the best I can get you.

[spoiler=The beginning of 26x(E):]Brendan:

…Sonia! Where are you, Sonia?! Sonia, I must speak… Hm? Who's that?

Sonia:

… Oh, well… I suppose it's best I was done with you anyway. Hee hee… Those annoying brothers were all that prevented me from acting sooner.

Brendan:

Sonia…you…

Sonia:

I got close to you so that I could take control of the Black Fang. Take a look around you. Not a familiar face to be seen, is there? I've been replacing them one by one… Hee hee. They're all Lord Nergal's puppets. His morphs!!

Brendan:

So…you've betrayed me.

Sonia:

You've finally noticed… You're a fool, Brendan Reed! Your own sons suspected me right from the beginning. Every minute I spent with you, every caress… It was loathsome!! It was all for Lord Nergal. All to control the Four Fangs. Now it's over. Die for me now, will you? Die for your beloved wife!

Brendan:

Sonia! You inhuman monster!!!

(Brendan and Sonia exchange blows)

Brendan:

Aaargh… Lloyd… Linus… Forgive your… foolish…father……

This proves that Sonia did seduce Brendan. It doesn't make it plausible, which is where the plot issue happened - it occurred, but it shouldn't have occurred.

Also, again the issue Mekkah brought up with Brendan being suspicious of Sonia earlier. And she says the Reed brothers distrusted her... they didn't hide it well enough to keep it from Sonia, but they didn't even suggest it to Brendan, not when the Black Fang's actions were changing so much, so obviously, so fast that their reputation among the citizens fell apart in just a year?

Please take a look at my older post on this matter and let me know what you think. (you may have already responded to someone else who said something similar, sorry if that's the case)

[Edit to fix faulty links and such]

Base or not, invading Caelin was suicidal as well. I don't understand why I've had to repeat this over and over. The moment Darin invaded Caelin, his life was as good as over.

I do not care for people who think their subjective views are better than everyone else's. I don't care if that's your intent, that's how you and Banzai are coming across. If you want to fix this, then get it through your collective skulls that this is a GAME before a story, and as such, the story isn't gonna be the next big classic. Flaws will exist. It is okay for these flaws to exist.

If you think you are in a position to judge writing, then you'd better damn well be able to produce it on your own (and none of this using another work as an example crap; create your own amazing story, and post it for others to critique). It is far easier to point out the flaws in someone else's work than to create your own flawless work.

Banzai is an amazing writer. I doubt he could be persuaded to post one of his books here in its entirety, but he knows what he's talking about.

I'm not a writer, and for this reason I've taken a subordinate role to Banzai on this topic whenever possible. However, I can see the plotholes just like anyone else. I can recognize that it's okay for some flaws to exist in a game or even for any other story to not be perfect, but as Banzai and I have repeated so many times, it's not the existence of some flaws; it's the extent of the countless flaws that tear up the plot to the point that there's almost nothing left. If there had just been a handful of notable flaws, like in FE8, we would not have made this thread. But instead, there are only a handful of chapters not made fundamentally... wrong by those flaws.

---

Something else I found while looking at supports.

Legault: There were countless corpses stacked one on top of the other... And there, atop of the bodies, they found a lone infant sleeping... You. You are death incarnate. You feel nothing, fear nothing, desire nothing... You kill. Nothing more. Angel of Death... The perfect name.

What?

Edited August 2, 2011 by Othin

[bottlegnomes]

As I noted above, assassins need to get information to do their job properly. Even if Brendan may not have had the information gathering powers of the morphs, he had to have people working for him who could get good information before that for the Black Fang to be effective at all. And no, Pascal never lived halfway across the continent from Brendan. The Black Fang is based in Bern, and Pascal was from Bern.

And as others brought up, while the Black Fang had morals, respecting the life of people they had judged as evil was not one of them. The entire purpose of the Black Fang was to kill people they had judged as evil, and based on their actions in the game, that was shown to extend just as clearly to their own members.

Thought Landskron was in Laus for some reason. Fair enough. We don't know Brendan didn't respect all life and just killed the cruel nobles because there was no other way to stop their oppression. For all we know if he could have kept them from hurting people without killing them he would have.

Banzai is an amazing writer. I doubt he could be persuaded to post one of his books here in its entirety, but he knows what he's talking about.

Why not link us to one, then?

Something else I found while looking at supports.

Legault: There were countless corpses stacked one on top of the other... And there, atop of the bodies, they found a lone infant sleeping... You. You are death incarnate. You feel nothing, fear nothing, desire nothing... You kill. Nothing more. Angel of Death... The perfect name.

What?

And? He's making a poetic point. Jaffar has been surrounded by death his entire life and, even as an infant, it didn't bother him. It doesn't have to be taken literally. And if it is literal what exactly is wrong with it? A massacre happened, possibly one executed by Nergal and his morphs, and they found a baby there, and Nergal decided to keep the baby. It's the same thing as Nino.

[Othin]

Thought Landskron was in Laus for some reason. Fair enough. We don't know Brendan didn't respect all life and just killed the cruel nobles because there was no other way to stop their oppression. For all we know if he could have kept them from hurting people without killing them he would have.

Legault's role in the old Black Fang was killing traitors. This shows that Brendan did not respect the lives of traitors, of which Pascal was one.

Why not link us to one, then?

Nothing to link to; they aren't posted publicly.

And? He's making a poetic point. Jaffar has been surrounded by death his entire life and, even as an infant, it didn't bother him. It doesn't have to be taken literally. And if it is literal what exactly is wrong with it? A massacre happened, possibly one executed by Nergal and his morphs, and they found a baby there, and Nergal decided to keep the baby. It's the same thing as Nino.

That's not how it sounded to me, but alright, let's go with that.

[eclipse]

For those of you who think that one should be allowed to criticize something without trying it. . .nothing's stopping you from doing it, but it looks awfully petty if you're criticizing something that you have no experience in whatsoever. For example, I don't go around complaining about the gameplay mechanics in Zelda games, because my only experience with the Zelda series was about an hour of A Link to the Past. In this case, it's a story that's on the line, so unless you've had experience with actually creating something from start to finish, it's not a good reflection of the critic if all he does is complain about plot holes when he hasn't tried to create something that doesn't have those problems.

In other words, give it an honest try before bitching about it.

Banzai is an amazing writer. I doubt he could be persuaded to post one of his books here in its entirety, but he knows what he's talking about.

I'm not a writer, and for this reason I've taken a subordinate role to Banzai on this topic whenever possible. However, I can see the plotholes just like anyone else. I can recognize that it's okay for some flaws to exist in a game or even for any other story to not be perfect, but as Banzai and I have repeated so many times, it's not the existence of some flaws; it's the extent of the countless flaws that tear up the plot to the point that there's almost nothing left. If there had just been a handful of notable flaws, like in FE8, we would not have made this thread. But instead, there are only a handful of chapters not made fundamentally... wrong by those flaws.

This is the Written Works forum. This is where writing goes.

Normally, I'd say short story, but I know what a complete and utter pain it can be to create one. I may not be the good writer, but I am willing to put my stuff out in public for others to comment on. Which reminds me, I owe my story another chapter.

As for YOU. . .I suggest attempting to create your own story, without asking for plot/character help before putting it out for everyone else to see. Since you are SO good at seeing mistakes, I'm sure whatever you publish will be perfect, so all you should receive are good comments.

[bottlegnomes]

Legault's role in the old Black Fang was killing traitors. This shows that Brendan did not respect the lives of traitors, of which Pascal was one.

Again, Legault may have just killed them because they were incapable of imprisoning them. Though to be honest, I really just wanted to see if you'd catch that.

Nothing to link to; they aren't posted publicly.

Then why not a short story? If he's really such a great writer he should have a ton of short stories. Or, hell, why not a CaC? Those are pretty freaking easy to whip up.

That's not how it sounded to me, but alright, let's go with that.

What'd you think it meant?

For those of you who think that one should be allowed to criticize something without trying it. . .nothing's stopping you from doing it, but it looks awfully petty if you're criticizing something that you have no experience in whatsoever. For example, I don't go around complaining about the gameplay mechanics in Zelda games, because my only experience with the Zelda series was about an hour of A Link to the Past. In this case, it's a story that's on the line, so unless you've had experience with actually creating something from start to finish, it's not a good reflection of the critic if all he does is complain about plot holes when he hasn't tried to create something that doesn't have those problems.

In other words, give it an honest try before bitching about it.

Tell that to most critics.

[Momo]

For those of you who think that one should be allowed to criticize something without trying it. . .nothing's stopping you from doing it, but it looks awfully petty if you're criticizing something that you have no experience in whatsoever. For example, I don't go around complaining about the gameplay mechanics in Zelda games, because my only experience with the Zelda series was about an hour of A Link to the Past. In this case, it's a story that's on the line, so unless you've had experience with actually creating something from start to finish, it's not a good reflection of the critic if all he does is complain about plot holes when he hasn't tried to create something that doesn't have those problems.

In other words, give it an honest try before bitching about it.

You don't have to be a cook to know you're eating shit. It doesn't matter if it's hard to write, the point is that it wasn't written well and you can tell why.