Mechanics that you want

[Othin]

It's nice to hope for things, but given the track record of recent games, hoping for any big change in this new game is just setting up for disappointment.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Othin

[Rewjeo]

Because FE6 and 10 have the exact same mechanics.

[CrashGordon94]

I don't see how this thread can possibly do anything more than set up disappointment.

It's time to face the facts: FE without Kaga doesn't have mechanics, and it doesn't have change. Really, it just doesn't have progress. FE13 will be exactly the same as every other FE game since FE6.

FE has plenty of change, just because it isn't as radical as the weird ass "Saga" games doesn't mean it isn't there.

FE12 dropping Weight and all the things that the Tellius games (especially FE10) did come to mind.

[Celice]

I don't see how this thread can possibly do anything more than set up disappointment.

It's time to face the facts: FE without Kaga doesn't have mechanics, and it doesn't have change. Really, it just doesn't have progress. FE13 will be exactly the same as every other FE game since FE6.

endgame

[Othin]

Because FE6 and 10 have the exact same mechanics.

They pretty much do; you play them almost exactly the same way as each other. Now compare to any of the first five FE games, or either of the Saga games, and the differences in how you play the games are multiplied by at least a hundred.

FE has plenty of change, just because it isn't as radical as the weird ass "Saga" games doesn't mean it isn't there.

FE12 dropping Weight and all the things that the Tellius games (especially FE10) did come to mind.

I stand corrected; that's one kind of change. However, it just shows that FE can regress and lose mechanics, not progress and gain mechanics.

The Saga games only look weird to you right now because you're used to every FE game being the same. When grouping them with the first five FE games, the progression makes sense, with each of the seven games adding a flood of new features and changing things around greatly. That's the sort of thing a new game in a series is meant to do, not rehash the previous game with tiny changes that will only matter to players looking at the game under a microscope. It's taking risks and trying new things, which is how a healthy series progresses and what makes good games what they are.

---

I must admit that I came off more strongly than I intended to; I don't want to start any confrontations here. But let's be rational: How different can we really expect this to be when dropping the typically trivial stat Wt looks like a good example of how recent games have changed? I can agree with having wish lists, but projecting those on to a new game with no chance of fulfilling them seems unwise. I do recognize that this may not always be what's going on, another mistake of my original post, but I still suggest being wary of it.

Edit: Well, trying to edit my original post to fit that more, I can't get it to anything that has much of a point. This was probably a bad idea in the first place. I'll just leave this here an an effort to clear up any misunderstandings as hopefully my last post on the matter.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Othin

[Anouleth]

They pretty much do; you play them almost exactly the same way as each other. Now compare to any of the first five FE games, or either of the Saga games, and the differences in how you play the games are multiplied by at least a hundred.

I stand corrected; that's one kind of change. However, it just shows that FE can regress and lose mechanics, not progress and gain mechanics.

The Saga games only look weird to you right now because you're used to every FE game being the same. When grouping them with the first five FE games, the progression makes sense, with each of the seven games adding a flood of new features and changing things around greatly. That's the sort of thing a new game in a series is meant to do, not rehash the previous game with tiny changes that will only matter to players looking at the game under a microscope. It's taking risks and trying new things, which is how a healthy series progresses and what makes good games what they are.

You remind me of the Devil from Dinosaur Comics

"debating video games is not an arena that admits shades of grey things are either totally awesome or incredibly terrible"

[Othin]

You remind me of the Devil from Dinosaur Comics

"debating video games is not an arena that admits shades of grey things are either totally awesome or incredibly terrible"

I spent quite a bit of time on other sites behaving in such a manner. It didn't go too well. I've been trying to improve about that here, but old habits are hard to break, which is why this is one of a few times when I've posted something overly harsh then attempted to back off when I realize what it'll cause.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Othin

[Arngrim]

What I want to see is:

-Split promotion

-No reclassing

-Rescuing

-Wi-Fi Battles

-Good Supports

-Another My Unit

-Forging

[Refa]

I want the Lord to be a badass, Sigurd style. Screw babying him around for more than half of the game.

Get rid of the different magic types; the magic triangle is almost never in play, and it's typically useless since magic users have so much difficulty doing damage to each other anyway. The purpose of the weapon triangle is to make the game simpler for new players, but I don't get the impression that the magic triangle does the same.

Haha, you just made that up.

On healers, give them double the amount of EXP, based on the DS Fire Emblems. Alm staff stays at 100, but everything else should double. They gain levels the slowest, but don't fight at all.

So like FE4?

I thought of another thing I'd like: Universal caps!

Too many times, a Class's stat caps (which I can only presume as designed to be insignificant since you barely ever reach them) end up being counted as being FAR too important (Like in FE10), making them the same would eliminate this problem. Though I think it should be one set of caps for 1st tier units, and another for 2nd tier.

Ugh, no. Horsemen are overpowered enough, we don't need to give them better stat caps too.

Some other ideas are kind of bad. Universal caps don't mean anything unless units can reach the caps in the first place. If the units can't reach some of their caps, then there's no point in having those high caps. If the units can reach some of their caps, then individual caps are necessary for differentiation. Either way, universal caps lose.

This man gets it.

This won't happen, but the visual that came to my head is a GBA swordmaster shaking his head in disapproval, then quickly thrusting the sword into the enemy (instead of the usual uppercut-like strike). Like Eirika's, but more badass.

Like this?

Then you look at the difference between, say, female/male swordmaster caps. -2 str for 2 points of res they'll never hit. same speed. a massive 3 con difference. There is no question who's better. People probably only use female swordmasters in GBA for their pretty legs.

At least FE4 got it right (not part of what you're complaining about, just saying).

[CrashGordon94]

Ugh, no. Horsemen are overpowered enough, we don't need to give them better stat caps too.

Actually, they wouldn't have better stat caps that way, they'd have the same ones as everyone else.

Speaking of this, I'd say less differentiated Movement too. Like, 1st tiers get 6 MOV and 2nd tiers get 7 MOV, with peopel that ride on things getting 1 more MOV. Though it would seem that were kinda closing the gaps on Movement in this game anyway.

[Thor Odinson]

Or we can just bring dismount back, giving foot units slightly better bases, and add a few more indoors chapters (proportionally), giving more incentive to use foot units since they'll be better indoors.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Luminescent Kitty

[paladin21]

Speaking of this, I'd say less differentiated Movement too. Like, 1st tiers get 6 MOV and 2nd tiers get 7 MOV, with peopel that ride on things getting 1 more MOV. Though it would seem that were kinda closing the gaps on Movement in this game anyway.

Then why would you want mounted units? They get no movement benefit, but they still have higher terrain penalties, and there are more weapons effective against mounted characters than most infantry (excluding armor infantry there's only one weapon effective against infantry, and not all of them, the Swordslayer, and I haven't seen one since the GBA times).

[eclipse]

Then why would you want mounted units? They get no movement benefit, but they still have higher terrain penalties, and there are more weapons effective against mounted characters than most infantry (excluding armor infantry there's only one weapon effective against infantry, and not all of them, the Swordslayer, and I haven't seen one since the GBA times).

Rescue/Canto? Weapon differences? Growths/bases? Who knows?

[dondon151]

Though it would seem that were kinda closing the gaps on Movement in this game anyway.

Probably not. Frederick is a great knight, and if FE8 were any indication, non-armored mounted units would have more movement than great knights.

[Momo]

Frederick also has seven move, so I'm guessing upon promotion they just don't gain any. I dunno if you can really assume things though, FE11 completely changed unit movement for one. On his own feet, Marth can run as far as a GBA Cavalier.

Also, what do people have against reclassing? Don't give me that "they're supposed to be characters" crap, either.

[I.M. Gei]

Frederick also has seven move, so I'm guessing upon promotion they just don't gain any. I dunno if you can really assume things though, FE11 completely changed unit movement for one. On his own feet, Marth can run as far as a GBA Cavalier.

Put more accurately, FE11/FE12 simply changed class movement back to how they were back in FE1/3, where Archers had 5 move, Paladins/Dracoknights had 10 move, Cavaliers had 9 move, etc.

[Anouleth]

Haha, you just made that up.

I make nothing up.

Sakurai

It may seem like there’s a ton of information, but actually, I think it’s really just like a game of rock-paper-scissors. In it, there’s an ironclad rule that’s easy to understand - like scissors beats paper, but it can’t beat rock. Understanding that is the first hurdle you cross in Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon.

Narihiro

Yeah. It’s exactly like rock-paper-scissors. The sword is effective towards the axe, but vulnerable to the lance. The lance is effective towards the sword, but vulnerable to the axe. The axe is effective towards the lance, but vulnerable to the sword. These three weapons are in a deadlock no different from rock-paper-scissors.

Sakurai

Like the way the Knight is very strong against the sword and axe, but is utterly feeble against magic attacks. And how flying characters can be shot down, so they are vulnerable to attacks from bows. Even if you have the same attack power, you can score a decisive victory by changing your strategy. Knowing these trade offs unique to the Fire Emblem series and taking advantage of it in your strategy is one the best parts of this game. You can say bow and arrows are highly effective against flying opponents, but it’s not a small increase in fighting ability, rather this inflicts many more times the normal damage. That’s really satisfying when you’re attacking, but it’s frightful when it’s their turn and those arrows are coming at you. I think that’s the exciting part, and the part the many people are attracted to.

Narihiro

But, at the time of the original NES version this system had a few warped areas; for instance the axe was very disadvantageous to play.

Sakurai

Yeah, there was some imbalance.

Narihiro

In the latest Fire Emblem, the rock-paper-scissors concept has become easier to understand. But, the match-up between different weapons is not that simple. Just understanding which measures up against the other is not an automatic key to victory. To make it so players can’t know what will happen, we thought a good way of raising stakes and adding tension to the game would be to include some random elements. So, “A” weapon is not necessarily effective against “B” weapon every time.

The gist of it is that they acknowledge that Fire Emblem is a very complex game and can be very daunting to beginners because there is so much information. By introducing a simple rule for newer players to follow, like Sword beats Axe, they are trying to make the game easier, rather than harder.

[dondon151]

Frederick also has seven move, so I'm guessing upon promotion they just don't gain any. I dunno if you can really assume things though, FE11 completely changed unit movement for one. On his own feet, Marth can run as far as a GBA Cavalier.

You can also see how far foot units move in the trailers (5 move). And despite the DS FE games changing class movement stats, mounted units still had a lot more than infantry units.

[Dark Sage]

Or we can just bring dismount back, giving foot units slightly better bases, and add a few more indoors chapters (proportionally), giving more incentive to use foot units since they'll be better indoors.

I wouldn't trust IS to make dismounting a good mechanic, if FE5 was anything to go by.

[Anouleth]

I wouldn't trust IS to make dismounting a good mechanic, if FE5 was anything to go by.

you mean you didn't like being stuck with a bunch of 5 move E swords characters and having literally two units in the entire game that could use Lances (also at E Rank)?

[Phoenix Wright]

Like this?

Almost exactly like that.

[Momo]

You can also see how far foot units move in the trailers (5 move). And despite the DS FE games changing class movement stats, mounted units still had a lot more than infantry units.

My point is that Frederick is probably going to be outrunning foot units, even if he's like FE8's Great Knight class.

[Thor Odinson]

I dunno. I liked dismounting in FE5. It made foot units actually pretty useful. It's movement growth that was pretty broken, as much as I liked having a 12 move Mareeta running around. But dismount was not the problem.

Especially coupled with Fatigue. While I didn't like fatigue for staff users (since their HP sucked), it did force me to rotate characters, which actually worked pretty well since I could use mounts+Leaf for a few chapters then switch on the footsoldiers just as we reach an indoors chapter.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Luminescent Kitty

[dondon151]

Dismounting strengthened sages more than anyone else in FE5 since sages had excellent bases and 7 base move. Heroes still only had 6 move barring movement growth, which was the same as dismounted promoted cavalry (minus mage knights, who had -1 move).

Edited October 7, 2011 by dondon151

[Thor Odinson]

Yeah, Didn't like Heros having only 6 move much either. 12 7 move Swordmasters and Sages were nice, though.

I managed to Dain Machua to 8 move though so yay

Edited October 7, 2011 by Luminescent Kitty