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Meg: Why such hate?


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An obvious statement, but yes, I did. Brom sucks. No way in hell you're doing anything with 20% speed growth AND general caps.

Brom has a 30% growth, not a 20% growth.

Meg's high SPD growth at least allows her to hit general caps quickly, high LUK combines with SPD for decent evasion,

Evasion or no evasion, Meg is less durable than Brom.

and Meg is easier to raise in part 1 than either Aran or Edward past 1-6-1 or maybe 1-6-2 because of her higher DEF than Edward and higher SPD than Aran (i.e. she isn't doubled).

Where have you gotten this idea that Aran is getting doubled so early? Even if Aran is still at base level in 1-6-2, only like three enemies in the entire map double him. Aran needs only two points of speed to avoid getting doubled by everything except for Myrmidons (which will also double Meg) in 1-7.

Let's say that Meg gains two levels in each of her first two chapters:

1x Fighter lvl 11 (Hand Axe)

HP 30, Atk 24, AS 12, Hit 99, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7

1x Fighter lvl 12 (Steel Axe)

HP 31, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 106, Avo 31, DEF 9, RES 3, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Fighter lvl 13 (Steel Axe)

HP 31, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 108, Avo 31, DEF 9, RES 3, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Archer lvl 11 (Steel Bow)

HP 26, Atk 24, AS 13, Hit 116, Avo 34, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 8

1x Archer lvl 13 (Steel Bow)

HP 27, Atk 25, AS 14, Hit 118, Avo 36, DEF 10, RES 5, Crit 7, Ddg 8

1x Soldier lvl 11 (Steel Lance)

HP 27, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 111, Avo 33, DEF 10, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Myrmidon lvl 14 (Steel Sword)

HP 26, Atk 20, AS 16, Hit 124, Avo 41, DEF 8, RES 4, Crit 12, Ddg 9

1x Myrmidon lvl 14 (Steel Sword)

HP 26, Atk 19, AS 17, Hit 125, Avo 42, DEF 9, RES 5, Crit 43, Ddg 8

1x Thunder Nage lvl 13 (Thunder)

HP 22, Atk 15, AS 11, Hit 111, Avo 29, DEF 5, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 7

1x Priest lvl 13 (Heal)

HP 22, Atk --, AS 11, Hit --, Avo 37, DEF 5, RES 14, Crit --, Ddg 15

1x Armor Sword lvl 12 (Steel Sword)

HP 32, Atk 23, AS 11, Hit 114, Avo 31, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 5, Ddg 10

1x Armor Sword lvl 14 (Wind Edge)

HP 32, Atk 22, AS 11, Hit 92, Avo 32, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 5, Ddg 10

1x Armor Axe lvl 13 (Hand Axe)

HP 32, Atk 23, AS 12, Hit 104, Avo 34, DEF 15, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 10

1x Armor Lance lvl 13 (Javelin)

HP 32, Atk 23, AS 11, Hit 97, Avo 32, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 5, Ddg 10

1x Soldier lvl 13 (Javelin)

HP 28, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 98, Avo 33, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 13 (Steel Lance, stealable Master Seal)

HP 28, Atk 24, AS 13, Hit 114, Avo 34, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 8

Again Meg's 23HP/11DEF. As you can see, most of these enemies 2HKO her, which is exactly the same position that Edward is in with his 25HP/7+1DEF. Her only significant win is against Mages since they 3HKO. However, Edward can double and 1-round them.

Brom has availability issues and is beaten out in combat by anything with a pulse (sans Heather, but she's not used for combat, anyways) in part 2.

Which is exactly what happens to Meg in early part 1 as well, except that Brom can actually take two hits without keeling over.

EDIT: Brom's SPD growth is actually 30%. My bad, but general point still stands; I'd also like to point out that you can't BEXP his SPD reliably even if you wanted to.

It would be pointless anyway because of his terrible caps. Which puts Meg and Brom in the same position: both of them don't double, but Brom has better strength, Axes, Water affinity, and better durability. As well as a easier time being trained.

Edited by Anouleth
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If you're obese, barring the existence of some metabolic abnormality, is it your fault or McDonald's?

Meg's, obviously.

At least Meg isn't completely outclassed by part 3 by just about everybody else she's grouped with.

- Nolan

- Aran

- Volug

- Sothe (Meg can't find items faster than Sothe, bet you didn't see that douche move coming)

- Tauroneo

- Jill

- Edward to a minor extent (he can double enemies I guess...?)

I don't know what you mean "Meg isn't outclassed". Hell, I'm willing to say Fiona is more useful than Meg just because she can Rescue or trade someone, then re-move.

Look, he wants to stop. Just let him, okay?

No, I love picking on stupid people.

Edited by Colonel M
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I think most of us can agree that he's probably wrong. . .but do you really need to keep poking him?

This, pretty much. Just let him have his views, it's not going anywhere anymore.

No, I love picking on stupid people.

Don't, it's not a good thing.

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This, pretty much. Just let him have his views, it's not going anywhere anymore.

Don't, it's not a good thing.

"Cry harder".

Look, I personally don't give two fucks about it. I'm going to do what I want when it comes to this topic, and that's debating that Meg is a horrible unit. Don't like it? Step aside and don't look at the topic.

EDIT: All I want to say is I love Integrity, especially after that post.

Edited by Colonel M
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This, pretty much. Just let him have his views, it's not going anywhere anymore.

I'm sorry, Crash, but isn't telling people they're wrong when it's more than a matter of opinion part of our job on the internet?

And when they fight back, is it not our prerogative to return fire?

EDIT: And please remember, this is the dude who's basically trying to end it with "I'm still right but stop telling me I'm not."

Edited by Integrity
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While I like the fact that he's trying to use hard evidence to prove that Meg is a good unit, the fact is that he's still wrong, yet he chooses to drag this out(even though he wants to end the argument.)

Seriously, KoT, this really isn't an argument you can win. No one is going to admit your right and leave it at that. Because, even though you might deny it, Meg is simply a horrible unit.

Edited by darkandroid125
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Think of it as "flattery" instead of "insulting". I'm too ignorant to learn how good Meg is, really. *shrugs*.

Alright, fine, I'll be a little nicer about it, but in return I get to be twice as rude to Crash.

Sheesh, women.

Edited by Colonel M
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I think most of us can agree that he's probably wrong. . .but do you really need to keep poking him?

He isn't going to walk back on his statements that Meg is a good unit; thus, the beatings will continue until there's no one left who wants to pick through the minutiae of this particular dead horse.

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No, I love picking on stupid people.

Heh, and here I thought you weren't a fan of self-deprecating humor.

Sorry, I meant no malice by it; I just had to...you set it up. smile.gif

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania
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Heh, and here I thought you weren't a fan of self-deprecating humor.

Sorry, I meant no malice by it; I just had to...you set it up. smile.gif

You clearly don't know who I am, since I'm more warped than Enron on a bad day. You can ask people like Red Fox of Fire, there's reasons why people prefer me in a straight jacket.

I'm guessing that Meg could be worse off than she already is....... Like coming in P4 with bows and being first tier.

I know Intelligent Systems have a screwed up way to put things in games, but I highly doubt they'd do something retarded like that.

Edited by Colonel M
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I could see them making an est lol. Archer that joins in part 4 with the following growths:

hp: 180

str: 120

mag: 40

skl: 160

spd: 160

lck 100

def 80

res 40

lulz. Obviously, the growths would never kick in since the only way that unit is gaining a level is through cards.

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Or Bexp.........

Whenever I mention FE, people ask "Are Marth and Roy/Ike in that game."

Mage Ests are already hard to train.......I don't want to imagine an archer or cleric one......

"Looks up est archtypes"

Oh God, IS made Corpul.

----------------------------

IS is known for making such wonderful units, such as Wendy,Ronan,Wil, Wolt, and H4X units like Lyre

(Screw earlygame FE archers.)

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Or Bexp.........

Whenever I mention FE, people ask "Are Marth and Roy/Ike in that game."

Mage Ests are already hard to train.......I don't want to imagine an archer or cleric one......

"Looks up est archtypes"

Oh God, IS made Corpul.

----------------------------

IS is known for making such wonderful units, such as Wendy,Ronan,Wil, Wolt, and H4X units like Lyre

(Screw earlygame FE archers.)

Honestly Corpul is easier to level as a Priest than if he was any other class on the sole merit he doesn't have to be in combat(and alot of staves give ALOT of EXP in FE4).

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In an attempt to wrap this topic up, (but in reality I was just really bored)

Meg's high SPD growth at least allows her to hit general caps quickly, high LUK combines with SPD for decent evasion, and Meg is easier to raise in part 1 than either Aran or Edward past 1-6-1 or maybe 1-6-2 because of her higher DEF than Edward and higher SPD than Aran (i.e. she isn't doubled).

Going off of everything you've said so far, I'm guessing this will be a pretty thorough showing of how Meg sucks.

Let’s start by giving Meg 1 level of BEXP right off the bat, as suggested. Note, this takes 400 BEXP out of the current 500 (max) we have. Also note that out of the 500 BEXP we have, 200 comes from player and partner units escaping in 1-3. Based on her stats, we’ll presume this raises HP, SPD, LCK and the other stats have essentially no chance to increase. So we start at 1-4 with the following:

Meg: 
Level	HP	STR	MAG	SKL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES
4	22	10	1	7	9	9	10	5

Aran: 
Level	HP	STR	MAG	SKL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES
7	24	10	0	12	10	6	11	2

Now let’s take a look at some enemies:

4x Tiger lvl 6

HP 41, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 125, Avo 31, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 7, Ddg 2

3x Tiger lvl 5

HP 40, Atk 24, AS 10, Hit 125, Avo 27, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 7, Ddg 2

2x Cat lvl 5

HP 34, Atk 18, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 34, DEF 8, RES 4, Crit 8, Ddg 1

Defensively: Against Cats, Meg is 3HKO’d and doubled while Aran is 4HKO’d and doubled. Both don’t really look that good there, but there aren’t many cats (3 to begin, in comparison to 8 Tigers). Against Tigers, both are 2HKO’d. That +1 SPD from BEXP was necessary for Meg, else she’d be doubled by 12AS Tigers.

Offensively: Meg has 21MT, 113HIT (+5MT forge) and Aran has 22MT, 115HIT (+5MT forge). As one could guess, there isn’t any difference to speak of right now.

1-5: Let’s assume Meg gains 3 levels and Aran gains 2. Therefore,

Meg:
Level	HP	STR	MAG	SKL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES
7	23.8	11.05	1.45	8.2	10.95	11.25	11.05	6.5

Aran:
Level	HP	STR	MAG	SKL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES
9	25	11.5	0.2	13.5	10.7	6.7	12.4	2.5

Some enemies:

4x Fighter lvl 11 (Steel Axe)

HP 30, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 104, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7

1x Myrmidon lvl 11 (Steel Sword)

HP 24, Atk 19, AS 15, Hit 120, Avo 37, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 12, Ddg 7

4x Soldier lvl 11 (Steel Lance, one has stealable vulnerary)

HP 27, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 111, Avo 33, DEF 10, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

2x fire Mage lvl 12 (Fire)

HP 22, Atk 16, AS 11, Hit 117, Avo 29, DEF 5, RES 10, Crit 5, Ddg 7

Defensively: 24HP/11DEF has Meg 2HKO’d at 23+MT, so soldiers and fighters usually 2HKO her. Despite 11AS, myrms double and 3HKO. 7RES leaves her 3HKO’d by mages. 25HP/12DEF has Aran 2HKO’d by 25+MT, which is only some fighters. Myrms double and 4HKO. 2RES leaves him 2HKO’d by mages.

Offensively: Meg has 22MT, 117HIT and Aran has 23MT, 117HIT. Hilariously, 23MT 2HKO’s most fighters while 22MT misses. Beyond that, no differences.

1-6-1: Let’s give both another 2 levels. Giving us,

Meg:
Level	HP	STR	MAG	SKL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES
9	25	11.75	1.75	9	12.25	12.75	11.75	7.5

Aran:
Level	HP	STR	MAG	SKL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES
11	26	13	0.4	15	11.4	7.4	13.8	3

In addition, Meg’s getting C-Leo and Aran is getting C-Laura for supports.

Some enemies,

1x Fighter lvl 12 (Steel Axe)

HP 31, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 106, Avo 31, DEF 9, RES 3, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Archer lvl 13 (Steel Bow)

HP 27, Atk 25, AS 14, Hit 118, Avo 36, DEF 10, RES 5, Crit 7, Ddg 8

2x Pegasus knight lvl 12 (Steel Lance, Turn 2, west)

HP 23, Atk 18, AS 9, Hit 114, Avo 30, DEF 9, RES 8, Crit 5, Ddg 12

1x Myrmidon lvl 14 (Steel Sword)

HP 26, Atk 20, AS 16, Hit 124, Avo 41, DEF 8, RES 4, Crit 12, Ddg 9

1x Thunder Nage lvl 13 (Thunder)

HP 22, Atk 15, AS 11, Hit 111, Avo 29, DEF 5, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Defensively: 25HP/13DEF of Meg is still 2HKO’d by 26+MT, so the early fighters are dangerous. 4HKO’d and doubled by myrms (still). Pegs 5HKO, unless they use the weaker javelin. 8RES makes her 3-4HKO’d by mages. 26HP/15DEF makes Aran 3HKO’d from 24-27MT. Myrms double, but 6HKO. Pegs are jokes at 9HKO. 3RES makes him 2-3HKO’d by mages, mostly 2 despite the mage I pulled as an example.

Offensively: Meg has 24MT, 129HIT and Aran has 25MT, 125HIT. The difference between 24MT and 25MT is, again, the difference between 2HKOing and 3HKOing fighters. Beyond that, pretty much identical.

1-6-2: 1 level each, this time.

Meg:
Level	HP	STR	MAG	SKL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES
10	25.6	12.1	1.9	9.4	12.9	13.5	12.1	8

Aran:
Level	HP	STR	MAG	SKL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES
12	26.5	13.75	0.5	15.75	11.75	7.75	14.5	3.25

Some enemies,

2x Sword Knight lvl 14 (Steel Sword)

HP 28, Atk 21, AS 12, Hit 118, Avo 37, DEF 14, RES 5, Crit 5, Ddg 8

1x Axe Knight lvl 15 (Steel Axe)

HP 28, Atk 24, AS 10, Hit 112, Avo 33, DEF 12, RES 5, Crit 6, Ddg 8

2x Lance Knight lvl 13 (Steel Lance)

HP 27, Atk 22, AS 11, Hit 112, Avo 34, DEF 11, RES 4, Crit 5, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 11 (Steel Lance)

HP 26, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 116, Avo 38, DEF 11, RES 5, Crit 6, Ddg 7

Plus some 1-6-1 enemies, the exception being mages use Elfire for 18atk.

Defensively: 26HP/13DEF Meg is still 2HKO by fighters with 26MT. 3HKO is 22-25MT. Not getting doubled by myrms anymore. Mages 3HKO. Aran has 26HP/15DEF still. 3HKO is 24-27MT. 4HKO is 22-23. Mages 2HKO.

Offensively: Meg has 24MT, 130HIT and Aran has 26MT, 128HIT. Aran’s got a handful more calvary in addition to fighters that he 2HKOs and Meg 3HKOs.

1-7: 1 level each.

Meg:
Level	HP	STR	MAG	SKL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES
11	26.2	12.45	2.05	9.8	13.55	14.25	12.45	8.5

Aran:
Level	HP	STR	MAG	SKL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES
13	27	14.5	0.6	16.5	12.1	8.1	15.2	3.5

Also, supports are going to B for both (Leo and Laura for Meg and Aran, respectively).

Some enemies,

4x Soldier (Steel Lance, two have droppable Door keys)

HP 29, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 114, Avo 36, DEF 12, RES 7, Crit 6, Ddg 8

1x Fighter lvl 16 (Steel Axe)

HP 34, Atk 28, AS 15, Hit 114, Avo 39, DEF 11, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 9

1x Myrmidon lvl 16 (Steel Sword)

HP 28, Atk 21, AS 18, Hit 126, Avo 45, DEF 9, RES 5, Crit 13, Ddg 9

2x Archer lvl 16 (Steel Bow)

HP 28, Atk 26, AS 16, Hit 121, Avo 41, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 9

1x Armor Lance lvl 14 (Steel Lance)

HP 33, Atk 25, AS 12, Hit 115, Avo 35, DEF 15, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 11

2x Fire Mage lvl 16 (Elfire)

HP 24, Atk 21, AS 13, Hit 117, Avo 34, DEF 6, RES 12, Crit 6, Ddg 8

Defensively: Meg has 26HP/13DEF still. 2HKO at 26+MT. 3HKO at 22-25MT. Myrms 4HKO and, by the by, they double. 9RES means mages 3HKO. Aran has 27HP/16DEF, meaning 3HKO is 25-29MT. Off chance something doubles other than a myrm. Myrms double, but 6HKO. 3RES means mages 2HKO.

Offensively: Meg has 24MT (22MT with brave), 139HIT and Aran has 26MT, 130HIT. Aran 2HKOs archers while Meg 3HKOs, but that’s the only real difference when both use forges. Meg can reduce her #RKO to 2 with brave sword against everything (3 for armors, 1 for mages), but that’s dubious use of the brave sword when someone like Zihark could 1RKO an armor with it if need be.

1-8: 2 levels for each

Meg:
Level	HP	STR	MAG	SKL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES
13	27.4	13.15	2.35	10.6	14.85	15.75	13.15	9.5

Aran:
Level	HP	STR	MAG	SKL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES
15	28	16	0.8	18	12.8	8.8	16.6	4

Some enemies,

2x Bandit lvl 15 (Venin Axe)

HP 39, Atk 22, AS 16, Hit 121, Avo 41, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 9

3x Soldier lvl 16 (Steel Lance)

HP 30, Atk 25, AS 15, Hit 116, Avo, 38, DEF 13, RES 8, Crit, 7, Ddg 8

1x Dracoknight lvl 15 (Steel Axe)

HP 31, Atk 27, AS 12, Hit 106, Avo 31, DEF 15, RES 0, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Fire Mage lvl 17 (Elfire)

HP 25, Atk 21, AS 12, Hit 117, Avo 32, DEF 7, RES 12, Crit 6, Ddg 8

Defensively: Meg’s at 27HP/14DEF. 3HKO is 23-27MT, which is pretty much everybody. 10RES means mages 3HKO. Aran has 28HP/17DEF, putting 3HKO at 27-30MT. So pretty much everybody is 4HKOing Aran. 4RES means mages 2HKO, though.

Offensively: Meg has 25MT (23MT with brave), 143HIT and Aran has 28MT, 135HIT. Neither is good against bandits (Meg 5HKOs, Aran 4HKOs). Aran 2HKOs soldiers while Meg 3HKOs. Aran 3HKOs the dracoknight while Meg 4HKOs, but that’s hardly important. Brave sword can help Meg, but is better put to use elsewhere (like Zihark with bandits).

1-E: 2 levels for Meg, 1 for Aran

Meg:
Level	HP	STR	MAG	SKL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES
15	28.6	13.85	2.65	11.4	16.15	17.25	13.85	10

Aran:
Level	HP	STR	MAG	SKL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES
16	28.5	16.75	0.9	18.75	13.15	9.15	17.3	4.25

We’ll bump their supports to A as well.

Some enemies,

1x Fighter lvl 17 (Steel Axe)

HP 34, Atk 29, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 51, DEF 11, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 8

1x Myrmidon lvl 18 (Steel Sword)

HP 29, Atk 22, AS 20, Hit 145, Avo 64, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 14, Ddg 9

2x Soldier lvl 18 (Steel Lance)

HP 32, Atk 26, AS 16, Hit 134, Avo 56, DEF 14, RES 9, Crit 7, Ddg 9

3x Archer lvl 18 (Steel Bow)

HP 29, Atk 28, AS 16, Hit 136, Avo 56, DEF 13, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 9

2x Wind Mage lvl 19 (Elwind)

HP 27, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 139, Avo 51, DEF 7, RES 13, Crit 6, Ddg 8

1x Armor Lance lvl 19 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 28, AS 14, Hit 137, Avo 55, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 12

Defensively: 29HP/16DEF for Meg makes 3HKO 26-30MT. There are some enemies breaking 31MT to 2HKO. Myrms also still have a chance to double her as they can hit 20AS, but it is a 5HKO. 10RES means mages 3HKO. Aran has 28HP/19DEF, making 3HKO 29-32MT. 4HKO is 26-28MT. It is possible an enemy other than a myrm doubles. Myrms are jokes, 10HKOing even if they double. 4RES means 2HKO’d by mages.

Offensively: Meg has 30MT (+5MT steel forge; 25MT with brave), 147HIT (152 with brave) and Aran has 32MT, 135HIT (+5MT steel forge). They’re pretty identical again, Meg being a bit more borderline on some 2HKOs. Brave sword doesn’t really help this time, and may be shipped over to GMs.

This is the end of part 1. Some things to note:

• When a stat was near .5 I rounded up for Meg and down for Aran.

• Hit can always be bolstered by actually adding it to forges instead of leaving it as zero, as per the examination.

• Meg is getting the same, if not more, kills as Aran no matter mobility problems or combat woes.

• I’ve been ignoring avoid for both Meg and Aran, namely because Aran isn’t far behind or is winning it (eg. Meg has 49 avoid in 1-E; Aran has 50).

Now, let’s be honest here, I've been painting the best picture possible for Meg and Meg hasn’t even won a chapter. Aran has pretty consistently been winning both offense and defense. And it isn’t like Aran has looked impressive. The only thing Meg has been consistently winning is durability vs mages, which is hardly important considering how few mages there are.

tl;dr - Meg sucks.

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Fair enough. For some reason, I remembered there being more 17-18 AS units in 1-E that would double Aran, giving Meg the edge defensively.

For curiosity's sake, how does 3-6 look?

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania
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Surely the designers of such fine units as Wendy would never do that... gee_wiz_emoticon.gif

Being the worst unit in FE6 is the equivalent to being fine now? Why am I hearing about this viewpoint just now? Edited by Little Al
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LOL. I love how there's 9 pages of people arguing with a guy who actually think Meg is a good unit, but people like Brom and Aran are completely terrible. Kngt_Of_Titania are you stuck in 2006-2007? Get with the times.

Wait...when did 2007 happen? THIS IS NEWS TO ME!

I'm SO CONFUUUSSEED... sad.gif

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania
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