Meg: Why such hate?

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

If you are using Meg and Fiona seriously as combat units, you are Doing It Wrong. Fiona is most likely a better unit than Meg not because of her combat but because she has a horse. Fiona can help ferry around certain units and can aid in a quicker clear for 1-7 and 1-E. Having used Fiona in both maps, I can say it is very easy to keep her alive if you're not retarded.

The argument specifically addressed in my post (unless I'm misunderstanding Queen's post) is "if both are trained, Fiona's worse in part 1, but maybe better in part 4," which I was disputing (Fiona is obviously harder to train, so she loses part 1, and it's hardly obvious she wins part 4). So OBVIOUSLY I'd address combat, since that's a major reason why'd you bother to (or be able to) level them up in the first place. We're not even going into the whole "I'm assuming Fiona is better because at least she can rescue shit in 1-7 and 1-E before I ditch her." So don't facepalm me.

Here's a protip that'll help you in real life. Don't go spouting off bullshit, say you're right, then back down before springing up again to spread your bullshit again while saying DON'T ARGUE WITH ME! I can guarantee you that it'll get you nowhere in life and that everyone will hate you.

Arguing "Meg v. Fiona" is hardly bullshit. I mean, Meg is higher than Fiona on the 500 page tier list (and they're both roughly in the same space) everybody's always arguing in! I'm just pointing out that I don't want to start another 7 pages of heated debate over two low tier units, which seems stupid. What, are we going to go put knives to each other's throats in a Sophia v. Wendy debate next?

Pro tip: Don't come off as an asshole when you post.

P.S. @ RFoF: Meg also has nearly as high of a MAG stat as Fiona, so she could use Imbue to nearly the same effect (although it takes up capacity), with more HP/DEF/RES to boot. Meg's higher durability also means she's less likely to be gibbed by the dragons between conconction uses (which I'm assuming will probably have to be used), and her Luna basically adds 37 ATK (since Red dragons have roughly 37 DEF) before damage is tripled, essentially ensuring OHKOs. Plus, you could always bless brave sword if mastery skills don't proc on 2 range attacks (I honestly don't remember if they do). I specifically mentioned 4-5 and 4-E-3 mainly because Luna is most effective against high DEF, low SPD units.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[RNG Princess]

The argument specifically addressed in my post (unless I'm misunderstanding Queen's post) is "if both are trained, Fiona's worse in part 1, but maybe better in part 4," which I was disputing (Fiona is obviously harder to train, so she loses part 1, and it's hardly obvious she wins part 4). So OBVIOUSLY I'd address combat, since that's a major reason why'd you bother to (or be able to) level them up in the first place. We're not even going into the whole "I'm assuming Fiona is better because at least she can rescue shit in 1-7 and 1-E before I ditch her." So don't facepalm me.

Arguing "Meg v. Fiona" is hardly bullshit. I mean, Meg is higher than Fiona on the 500 page tier list (and they're both roughly in the same space) everybody's always arguing in!

Pro tip: Don't come off as an asshole when you post.

@ Bold I think thats because Tier Lists aren't always concrete ^^' they always change. I think that Fiona should go above Meg just because of utility, she can be recognizeably helpful because of the horse in part 3 (and 1-7).

As for the Combat, Meg > Fiona in Part 1 for all the reasons you posted (availability, ledge climbing) but that falls short on her when her str starts to fall behind. Both of them are pretty bad ^^' and i'm not sure which one of them is "better" but Fiona seemed easier to me just because of canto. However both were pretty headache inducing, and both of them need to be shielded and babied for a long while.

Ooops I forgot to mention Fiona pretty much needs to be BEXP fed levels to be of any combat use

Edited November 20, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

@ Bold I think thats because Tier Lists aren't always concrete ^^' they always change. I think that Fiona should go above Meg just because of utility, she can be recognizeably helpful because of the horse in part 3 (and 1-7).

True enough, but I'm trying to say to Dark Sage that a Meg v. Fiona debate isn't ridiculously lopsided on its face, which I think he's trying to argue. The only problem I'd see with Fiona rescuing in 1-7 and 1-E is that I'm pretty sure almost everything in the game doubles and ORKO's (or very close to it) her after she's recruited, and doing that means one less combat unit deployed.

EDIT: 3 users are reading this topic. Shit, it begins! Must...distract...them...

WENDY > SOPHIA, DISCUSS!

Edited November 20, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[RNG Princess]

True enough, but I'm trying to say to Dark Sage that a Meg v. Fiona debate isn't ridiculously lopsided on its face, which I think he's trying to argue. The only problem I'd see with Fiona rescuing in 1-7 and 1-E is that I'm pretty sure almost everything in the game doubles and ORKO's (or very close to it) her after she's recruited, and doing that means one less combat unit deployed.

EDIT: 3 users are reading this topic. Shit, it begins! Must...distract...them...

WENDY > SOPHIA, DISCUSS!

^^' Fiona never faces combat at all because it would kill her, she's only there to ferry Miccy in 1-7 to allow Jill to get more combat and Volug to use pure water. I'm not sure how she'd work in 1-E though you're going to have to ask Dark Sage of his strategy ^^'.

[dondon151]

Yeah I don't personally think Meg deserves to be above Fiona either, but no one really cares about the ordering of bottom tier. It's like caring about what kinds of feces smell worse than others.

Edited November 21, 2011 by dondon151

[Dark Sage]

The argument specifically addressed in my post (unless I'm misunderstanding Queen's post) is "if both are trained, Fiona's worse in part 1, but maybe better in part 4," which I was disputing (Fiona is obviously harder to train, so she loses part 1, and it's hardly obvious she wins part 4). So OBVIOUSLY I'd address combat, since that's a major reason why'd you bother to (or be able to) level them up in the first place. We're not even going into the whole "I'm assuming Fiona is better because at least she can rescue shit in 1-7 and 1-E before I ditch her." So don't facepalm me.

I hardly think "Hi I'm ORKO'd by nearly everything on the map and have 5 move" is somehow better than Fiona's part 1 (where she has her utility). The flaws also cut into Meg's ability to train, so she is not "1000 times easier to train than Fiona" like you asserted in your previous post.

Further more, as usual, you are dead wrong about Meg being better than Fiona even when they are fully trained in the tower. Fiona's Sol, Earth affinity, and high defense stat make her easily more durable than Meg. She also kicks Meg's ass in offense too thanks to Wishblade and higher move, so she can actually see more combat in the tower. Hyping up the defense halving property of Luna is retarded since both should OHKO anything if their masteries activate.

Furthermore, it's retarded to assume both are being used as serious combat units. It's like shooting yourself in both feet.

Arguing "Meg v. Fiona" is hardly bullshit. I mean, Meg is higher than Fiona on the 500 page tier list (and they're both roughly in the same space) everybody's always arguing in!

That's because the OP is too lazy to update the list. Otherwise, I'm fairly sure Fiona would be moved above Meg, considering there've been enough arguments in Fiona's favor.

I'm just pointing out that I don't want to start another 7 pages of heated debate over two low tier units, which seems stupid. What, are we going to go put knives to each other's throats in a Sophia v. Wendy debate next?

An epic Sophia vs Wendy debate happened in the FE6 thread.

Pro tip: Don't come off as an asshole when you post.

IRNOY!

P.S. @ RFoF: Meg also has nearly as high of a MAG stat as Fiona, so she could use Imbue to nearly the same effect (although it takes up capacity), with more HP/DEF/RES to boot. Meg's higher durability also means she's less likely to be gibbed by the dragons between conconction uses (which I'm assuming will probably have to be used), and her Luna basically adds 37 ATK (since Red dragons have roughly 37 DEF) before damage is tripled, essentially ensuring OHKOs. Plus, you could always bless brave sword if mastery skills don't proc on 2 range attacks (I honestly don't remember if they do). I specifically mentioned 4-5 and 4-E-3 mainly because Luna is most effective against high DEF, low SPD units.

You can one turn 4-5 thanks to Rescue and you can one turn 4-E-3 while only killing one generic dragon. Meg is hardly necessary there at all.

[Integrity]

Why are we talking about Meg versus Fiona on 4-E-3 when obviously Laura can trash every single non-Dheginsea dragon on the map?

Silly kids.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Why are we talking about Meg versus Fiona on 4-E-3 when obviously Laura can trash every single non-Dheginsea dragon on the map?

Silly kids.

QFT.

P.S.: First, when Fiona is 20/20/20, Sol does not one-shot the red dragons in 4-E-3 but rather does 18x3=54 damage, leaving them with about 22 health (meaning the second attack won't quite kill them either). It also procs roughly half as often as Luna, which will do (34x3)+18=120 damage when Meg is 20/20/20. In fact, Meg can one-shot the dragons with Luna as far back as 20/20/1, provided her weapon has 2 MT or more (i.e. always). From 20/20/1 to 20/20/20, the proc chance of Luna goes from 24-32% on average. So Meg will always OHKO the dragons as long as she's third tier, Fiona will never ORKO the dragons at 20/20/20 average (and just barely if she caps STR). Second, dondon's right in basically saying nobody ever tends to bother arguing low tier anyways. Third, I think Integrity already showed Meg isn't ORKO'd by just about anything in 1-4 provided she dings 1 SPD at level 4 beforehand, while it's definitely harder to get Fiona to that status without WAY more BEXP pumped her way.

P.P.S. Basically what this says is that Fiona probably wins because nobody in SF likes fielding either of the two for combat, and at least Fiona has a horse, but if combat ever did come into play, at all, ever, Meg would probably win.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Integrity]

Hang on, hang on, I never mentioned Meg's parameters in 1-4. I used 1-6-1, 1-8 (erroneously, should have used 1-E in retrospect), and 3-6.

That said, you are right for a change. If you feed Meg an entire level of BEXP in the 1-4 base and she gets Speed (which is all but guaranteed), no enemy on the map will 1RKO her. Of course, Tigers 2HKO without doubling and Cats 3HKO while doubling, so you can't expose her to much, but it's something at least. She still does shit damage (5HKO on Tigers, 4HKO on Cats with Steel) but you didn't bring that up so I won't stress it.

Also why is Fiona's performance in 4-E-3 of such tremendous import to you?

[Florete]

P.S.: First, when Fiona is 20/20/20, Sol does not one-shot the red dragons in 4-E-3 but rather does 18x3=54 damage, leaving them with about 22 health (meaning the second attack won't quite kill them either).

Problem here; if you have any ideas of having Fiona solo 4-E-3 (and really, as long as you're not in HM), you'll get her Str capped. Fiona, like many characters, is BEXPable.

[arvilino]

QFT.

P.S.: First, when Fiona is 20/20/20, Sol does not one-shot the red dragons in 4-E-3 but rather does 18x3=54 damage, leaving them with about 22 health (meaning the second attack won't quite kill them either). It also procs roughly half as often as Luna, which will do (34x3)+18=120 damage when Meg is 20/20/20. In fact, Meg can one-shot the dragons with Luna as far back as 20/20/1, provided her weapon has 2 MT or more (i.e. always). From 20/20/1 to 20/20/20, the proc chance of Luna goes from 24-32% on average. So Meg will always OHKO the dragons as long as she's third tier, Fiona will never ORKO the dragons at 20/20/20 average (and just barely if she caps STR). Second, dondon's right in basically saying nobody ever tends to bother arguing low tier anyways. Third, I think Integrity already showed Meg isn't ORKO'd by just about anything in 1-4 provided she dings 1 SPD at level 4 beforehand, while it's definitely harder to get Fiona to that status without WAY more BEXP pumped her way.

P.P.S. Basically what this says is that Fiona probably wins because nobody in SF likes fielding either of the two for combat, and at least Fiona has a horse, but if combat ever did come into play, at all, ever, Meg would probably win.

Meg wins for combat, but both her and Fiona are both pretty tragic units(in terms of the sort of chapters they appear in), but Fiona provides canto rescues which only her and Jill can do for the Dawn Brigade, considering the deployment slots in part 3 are large enough that a couple untrained units are also going to be deployed Fiona has that advantage over Meg.

Fiona has more utility than Meg with or without investment whereas Meg requires high investment in every chapter she's in before end-game in order to survive the next chapters and at the end her advantage over Fiona is being able to OHKO Red Dragons in 4-E-3 about 30% of the time.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Meg wins for combat, but both her and Fiona are both pretty tragic units(in terms of the sort of chapters they appear in), but Fiona provides canto rescues which only her and Jill can do for the Dawn Brigade, considering the deployment slots in part 3 are large enough that a couple untrained units are also going to be deployed Fiona has that advantage over Meg.

I just see it really being somewhat hard (Read: Not impossible) to rescue units with Fiona since she'd have to avoid units like the plague straight from 1-7, and its only going to get worse from there (especially from part 3). But considering that Fiona can canto rescue and Meg cannot, she technically wins in the utility department. I've never denied this.

Fiona has more utility than Meg with or without investment whereas Meg requires high investment in every chapter she's in before end-game in order to survive the next chapters and at the end her advantage over Fiona is being able to OHKO Red Dragons in 4-E-3 about 30% of the time.

Couple things.

1) Having used Meg in a HM run, she's pretty good by 1-E and I can see her faring relatively well (as far as t1 DB units go) by 3-6. Most numbers I see crunching out puts her similar in combat to Aran (defensively and offensively; usually slightly worse due to level differences), forges included but Brave Sword omitted. She's pretty much in "auto-level" mode past 20/20/1 provided you put her in the proper team in part 4. It's seriously hard to overhype how good Luna is -- like I said, OHKOs on Red Dragons (and thus, pretty much everything in the game) at 20/20/1. Thus, I'd say "high investment in part 1", "average investment in part 3", and "deploy her and she levels herself unless you're 2 turning chapters in part 4". If I ever manage to level Fiona in HM (don't hold your breath), I'll talk about how she fares mid- and late-game.

2) Meg doubles, so it's up to a 33% percent per attack, or a 55% chance per round; Sol, is on average, 15.5% chance per attack, or 28.6% chance overall. Throw in a brave sword for Meg (this won't work for Fiona, since it puts her out of ORKO range at capped STR), and it becomes ~80% (1-(.67^4)) chance to ORKO a Red Dragon. That's pretty nice.

P.S. RFoF, I was just noticing that she'd just barely ORKO with Sol at capped STR after crunching out the numbers (and by barely, I mean TO THE SINGLE HP; one DEF or HP extra, and she doesn't ORKO at capped STR with Sol with a Wishblade). I didn't mean to imply that it's impossible for her to cap STR, since she averages 1 below the cap at 20/20/20 -- I'm not sure (as in, I literally don't know) if she'd hit the level necessary to cap STR by 4-E-3 without severe favoritism, even with BEXP use. She could in NM. Meg could theoretically walk in there at 20/20/1 and have an 68.4% chance to ORKO them with a Brave Sword (going up to 80% at 20/20/20).

P.S.S. I mainly pointed out 4-E-3 because Meg works best with slow, high DEF units due to the mechanics of how she ORKO's crap others could not (Luna). 4-E-3 is the sheer epitome of these types of enemies.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[RNG Princess]

^^' most of the arguments against Meg is based on turn count play. If we take longer to train her Meg will not be much hindrance, but trying to get low turn counts and trying to raise her is difficult because she lacks in a lot of departments making her not worth raising by tier list potential. If you're playing at a slower pace Meg can be good, especially on other modes in NM she can be very good.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Shadow Mir]

1) Having used Meg in a HM run, she's pretty good by 1-E and I can see her faring relatively well (as far as t1 DB units go) by 3-6. Most numbers I see crunching out puts her similar in combat to Aran (defensively and offensively; usually slightly worse due to level differences), forges included but Brave Sword omitted. She's pretty much in "auto-level" mode past 20/20/1 provided you put her in the proper team in part 4. It's seriously hard to overhype how good Luna is -- like I said, OHKOs on Red Dragons (and thus, pretty much everything in the game) at 20/20/1. Thus, I'd say "high investment in part 1", "average investment in part 3", and "deploy her and she levels herself unless you're 2 turning chapters in part 4". If I ever manage to level Fiona in HM (don't hold your breath), I'll talk about how she fares mid- and late-game.

2) Meg doubles, so it's up to a 33% percent per attack, or a 55% chance per round; Sol, is on average, 15.5% chance per attack, or 28.6% chance overall. Throw in a brave sword for Meg (this won't work for Fiona, since it puts her out of ORKO range at capped STR), and it becomes ~80% (1-(.67^4)) chance to ORKO a Red Dragon. That's pretty nice.

P.S. RFoF, I was just noticing that she'd just barely ORKO with Sol at capped STR after crunching out the numbers (and by barely, I mean TO THE SINGLE HP; one DEF or HP extra, and she doesn't ORKO at capped STR with Sol with a Wishblade). I didn't mean to imply that it's impossible for her to cap STR, since she averages 1 below the cap at 20/20/20 -- I'm not sure (as in, I literally don't know) if she'd hit the level necessary to cap STR by 4-E-3 without severe favoritism, even with BEXP use. She could in NM. Meg could theoretically walk in there at 20/20/1 and have an 68.4% chance to ORKO them with a Brave Sword (going up to 80% at 20/20/20).

P.S.S. I mainly pointed out 4-E-3 because Meg works best with slow, high DEF units due to the mechanics of how she ORKO's crap others could not (Luna). 4-E-3 is the sheer epitome of these types of enemies.

Calling Meg's part 4 "deploy her and she levels herself" reeks of bullshit, seeing as she's probably promoting into third tier sometime in part 4. And I wouldn't get my hopes up about a freshly promoted Meg doubling anything that's not a sage or bishop.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

^^' most of the arguments against Meg is based on turn count play. If we take longer to train her Meg will not be much hindrance, but trying to get low turn counts and trying to raise her is difficult because she lacks in a lot of departments making her not worth raising by tier list potential. If you're playing at a slower pace Meg can be good, especially on other modes in NM she can be very good.

Hmm...I'm going from the perspective of a medium efficiency playthrough (as FE10 is one of my least played FEs), as in I meet all turn counts (except when I had Meg solo that one chapter in NM), but normally didn't GREATLY exceed them.

P.S. I obviously meant AFTER promotion in p4. The gains Meg gets from third promotion are crazy (large increase in SPD cap, access to Luna, most notably). I usually field Meg in the team going to 4-5, so she starts doubling tigers/dragons at 20/20/1 (24 AS baseline doubles the 20 AS tigers, she'll quickly level to the point where she'll double them all), and levels fast enough in that chapter that she's doubling slower cats by the end (in NM for the cats, but not in HM). Meg's fielded in one chapter before she'll hit third tier IIRC, so she'll spend more time than not as third tier in p4 if she goes in that team.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[weso12]

I know I am not really part of this topic but I have to point out

That's because the OP is too lazy to update the list. Otherwise, I'm fairly sure Fiona would be moved above Meg, considering there've been enough arguments in Fiona's favor.

Incorrect:

The page seems to be updated fairly regularly (granted it was updated the day after you posted so it is still possible that was the first edited for the longest time but I kinda doubt it) so despite arguments made against it and Meg is still above Fiona

Edited November 25, 2011 by weso12

[Florete]

I know I am not really part of this topic but I have to point out

Incorrect:

The page seems to be updated fairly regularly (granted it was updated the day after you posted so it is still possible that was the first edited for the longest time but I kinda doubt it) so despite arguments made against it and Meg is still above Fiona

There was a time when I was being lazy in updating, however, I don't think I've seen a serious case for Fiona > Meg, especially with the new ruling that deployment is free, which quite hurts Fiona since her one claim to fame over someone like Meg was the stuff she could do when there were enough slots to deploy everyone.

[Repulsif]

I started a new HM PT, and Meg died from a tiger who had 14 (12 ? she was doubled) spd.

I, as usual positionned her in the upper right door of the central room.

A couple of missed hits from Ilyana, Leonardo and Aran on before the first tiger did that.

Couldn't do anything to save her.

I'm not the best FE player but well...

Edited November 26, 2011 by Repulsif

[Vicious Sal]

Meg tries to get into the pants of the most awesome Fe Character.

That is reason enough for me to hate her.

ZiharkxOldlove >

ZiharkxIlyana >

ZiharkxAlone :( >

ZiharkxLethe&Lyre 8D >>>>>>>>>>

No way meg.

[arvilino]

I started a new HM PT, and Meg died from a tiger who had 14 (12 ? she was doubled) spd.

I, as usual positionned her in the upper right door of the central room.

A couple of missed hits from Ilyana, Leonardo and Aran on before the first tiger did that.

Couldn't do anything to save her.

I'm not the best FE player but well...

You forgot to give her 400 of your BEXP so she can survive the chapter.

[Ansem]

She eats all your food, I think that's why everyone hates her.

[Ciarre]

But people don't really hate Ilyana and she eats everything :o

wait unless you were talking about her to begin with if so I'm stupid

[Dark Sage]

There was a time when I was being lazy in updating, however, I don't think I've seen a serious case for Fiona > Meg, especially with the new ruling that deployment is free, which quite hurts Fiona since her one claim to fame over someone like Meg was the stuff she could do when there were enough slots to deploy everyone.

In contrast, I have not seen any arguments in favor of Meg>Fiona. Most of them seem to be "feed Meg 400 BEXP so she doesn't get ORKO'd by tigers in 1-4" and "Fiona's combat is also a bigger joke than the Detroit Lions". The former ignores how she needs 2 speed procs by 1-5 to avoid being doubled by all the soldiers and the 13 AS Archers. These enemies ORKO Meg if they're using steel weapons. And let's not forget how her offense is on the level of Leonardo, except she has to take counters. Everyone I guess aspires to be as shitty as Leonardo.

The arguments have ignored how Meg has 5 move, so she has trouble reaching any enemies. They've also been expecting Meg to actually be able to promote by 3-6.

Fiona? Oh yeah, she sucks. She sucks HARD. But there's one thing she can do and that's help with ferrying Micaiah in 1-7. Maybe even 1-E. Can Meg do any of that? No! Of course not! And keeping Fiona alive isn't even that difficult if you're not tactically inept and she has canto and superior movement to Meg, so she can get out of danger when she needs to.

Of course nobody actually gives a shit about whether Meg>Fiona. I know I don't particularly care if my children grow up in a world where the tier list says Meg>Fiona. But to say there hasn't been serious case for Fiona>Meg is ridiculous.

Furthermore, how does the free slot help Meg and hurt Fiona? Last time I checked, Meg wasn't doing anything useful.

[Integrity]

Meg can punch a wall in 1-4 so Edward can wreck shit faster.

Wait, no, shit, that's Wendy and Oujay. My bad.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

She eats all your food, I think that's why everyone hates her.

But people don't really hate Ilyana and she eats everything :o

wait unless you were talking about her to begin with if so I'm stupid

Which brings me to the question of who could eat more?

either way dispite the agruements, i'm certain Meg is still above Fiona