Rate the Unit, Day 19: Raven

[Schlafo Zobeni]

I gotta agree with Kngt_Of_Titania .

Raven's combat is good, if Raven can do anything it's fighting .

[Aran613]

9/10

Suffers SLIGHTLY (corrected) before promotion, but extremely useful afterwards

(Oh, when you see Wil next time, just point and laugh for having below a 2)

Edited January 8, 2012 by Aran613

[Raven]

Saying Raven is terrible before promotion is pretty arrogant.

Any Lancereaver competition has access to other weapon types so not really much competition there. Who's going to waste their Lancereaver uses on Guy, Lyn or Eliwood? Me neither.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Raven faces a lot of Lances in the game, and he's got competition for the Lancereaver in 17x. Once he promotes he has Axes so he doesn't have to worry, but he actually does have some issues pre-promotion, mainly because he's probably going to be in the front so he can promote quickly.

There's a difference between "has issues" and "is absolutely terrible".

Yeah, swordlocking presents issues, namely the lack of 1-2 range (the relatively common lance enemies don't help, but they're not TOO common before Raven promotes), but Raven's HM bases and good growths mean he's good from the start and grows quickly. He rarely has trouble doubling or comes close to failing at STR (it's not awesome until his 55% STR growth kicks in, but it's sufficient for sure).

Bartre's combat early-game is terrible. Are we equating Raven's combat to how bad Bartre fails?

Edited January 8, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[dondon151]

Saying Raven is terrible before promotion is pretty arrogant.

I hope you don't think that "arrogant" is a synonym for "accurate?"

Unpromoted Raven is basically Guy with slightly more str. And everyone thinks that Guy is pretty bad. Offensively, even 8/0 Lyn @ Mani Katti ties parameters with 5/0 Raven @ Iron Sword, but she has all that crit from her weapon in addition to effective damage against a couple of enemy types. And everyone hates Lyn.

Enough with the comparisons. Raven contributes nothing to the team prior to promotion. If you consider the maps immediately after Raven's arrival, none of them involve him making a significant contribution towards the completion of the primary (or even secondary) map objectives. Most of them are just Marcus and Sain solos with some fliers scattered here and there. Raven just kind of runs off to the side to gain some EXP.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Unpromoted Raven is basically Guy with slightly more str. And everyone thinks that Guy is pretty bad. Offensively, even 8/0 Lyn @ Mani Katti ties parameters with 5/0 Raven @ Iron Sword, but she has all that crit from her weapon in addition to effective damage against a couple of enemy types. And everyone hates Lyn.

Judging from the ratings people have actually given, Guy gets 4/10-7/10 depending on tastes; that puts him in the realm of "average" or "mediocre". Raven being Guy with more STR (the most common complaint of Guy) would put his pre-promo status to "Good". His post-promo combat is closer to "OMFG HOW CAN THEY PUT A UNIT LIKE THIS IN A GAME WITH ENEMIES SO CRAPPY?!" by many or most people. The reasons he's getting 8/10 and 9/10 is 1) No horse/pegasus and 2) He's not Marcus.

Enough with the comparisons. Raven contributes nothing to the team prior to promotion. If you consider the maps immediately after Raven's arrival, none of them involve him making a significant contribution towards the completion of the primary (or even secondary) map objectives. Most of them are just Marcus and Sain solos with some fliers scattered here and there. Raven just kind of runs off to the side to gain some EXP.

Considering that I (along with Horace, Kopf, and more) were hitting turn count minimums (or damn close to it) in early-to-mid-game in a random pick draft due to Marcus being free, this is a terrible argument. You just described almost every character for the first 10 or so chapters of the game, barring rare exceptions like knocking down a tree.

17: Marcus Rush

17x: Marcus Trashing Everything w/ Florina Rush

18: Marcus Rush

19: Marcus Rush

...I'm seeing a pattern here.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Smiley Jim]

Raven is one of the best foot units, but even he has his flaws.

Firstly, this guy has good offense. And I mean good. Raven starts with 15 spd at 5/0, so he already doubles most everything, and with a 45% growth, expect this to continue the rest of the game(he caps spd as a merc by 15/0 FFS.) Even with a steel sword at base, he doubles most things in C17x with 13AS(he misses the archer and the KA pirate.) Not bad, amigo. Also, UNLIKE Guy, Raven hits surprisingly hard for a sword user. 10 str at base yields 18 atk with a steel sword, which does 13 damage to the Lv17 pirates with WTA, and 15 to the Lv4 pirates, ORKOing the lower end ones. Or he could use Guy's KE and have a 36% chance of OHKOing the bastards anyway. And did I mention that he has a 55% growth in str. A 15/1 Raven has 16 str, which is 2 more than 15/1 Guy, and he uses axes upon promotion, widening the atk gap against his competition.

And what's a unit without his flaws? Firstly, Raven falls into the category of being range locked until he touches a hero crest. This is bad, as you want to be able to counter hordes of enemies on the EP, and with no 1-2 range, he fails against the archers and mages. And jav/hand axe dudes. Granted, this fixes itself once he promotes, but until he reaches at least Lv10, it hurts. Another issue is the fact that he isn't mounted. With rescuing, this problem isn't too huge a deal(every mounted/flying unit except Vaida can pick up promoted Raven), but when he needs to fight something, it helps to have 7-8 move, not 5-6.

His durability is above average. It starts fairly average at 29HP/6def, which gets him 3HKO'd by higher end enemies, but it's not like he gets 2HKO'd by anything except bosses anyway. His durability growth is the same as Kent's(85HP/25def), and Raven has above average starting HP for his level, so he can HP tank at later levels(15/1 Raven has 42HP/11def which gets 4HKO'd by steel lance wyverns with WTA on Raven's side) His res, however, is awful. Raven sports 2 res with a 15% growth, so he takes magic like a little girl on crack. While this isn't too bad against unpromoted mages with PW/M-shield, it royally sucks against promoted magi. To give an idea on how bad it can get, 15/7 Raven, with full Barrier, takes a combined 29 damage from a 30 atk Bolting sage and a 25 atk Purge bishop in Cog, which is about 5/8 of his 47 HP(he's left with 4HP without Barrier/PW. lol)

So we've got an excellent unit with some good qualities, but a whole lot of bad before promotion. But post-promotion Raven is pretty good, except for the magic and movement issue.

8.5

Edited January 8, 2012 by darkandroid125

[Lord Raven]

Judging from the ratings people have actually given, Guy gets 4/10-7/10 depending on tastes; that puts him in the realm of "average" or "mediocre". Raven being Guy with more STR (the most common complaint of Guy) would put his pre-promo status to "Good". His post-promo combat is closer to "OMFG HOW CAN THEY PUT A UNIT LIKE THIS IN A GAME WITH ENEMIES SO CRAPPY?!" by many or most people. The reasons he's getting 8/10 and 9/10 is 1) No horse/pegasus and 2) He's not Marcus.

Good luck getting him to promotion! His 5 move places him far behind the 8 movers. The enemies aren't strong enough to warrant his level of offense; it's overkill once raised up, and at base he is swordlocked. I'm not sure why you're ignoring the Swordlock in every single one of your posts, but it's there and it's really killing him.0

Considering that I (along with Horace and I think Kopf) were hitting turn count minimums in early-to-mid-game in a random pick draft due to Marcus being free, this is a terrible argument. You just described almost every character for the first 10 or so chapters of the game, barring rare exceptions like knocking down a tree.

How is that a terrible argument when it's what happens? A unit that does not perform at the top is worthy of a not-top score. Which a 6/10 is, considering he's not *that* good outside of ranked play. He beats the hell out of every unmounted unit, sure... isn't that good enough? Having poor/swordlocked offense for half the game != very good.

At least you're not writing paragraphs about nothing like DA125, but that's all I will give you -_-

Edited January 8, 2012 by Mercenary Raven

[Raven]

I hope you don't think that "arrogant" is a synonym for "accurate?"

Unpromoted Raven is basically Guy with slightly more str. And everyone thinks that Guy is pretty bad. Offensively, even 8/0 Lyn @ Mani Katti ties parameters with 5/0 Raven @ Iron Sword, but she has all that crit from her weapon in addition to effective damage against a couple of enemy types. And everyone hates Lyn.

Enough with the comparisons. Raven contributes nothing to the team prior to promotion. If you consider the maps immediately after Raven's arrival, none of them involve him making a significant contribution towards the completion of the primary (or even secondary) map objectives. Most of them are just Marcus and Sain solos with some fliers scattered here and there. Raven just kind of runs off to the side to gain some EXP.

"Accurate" in your opinion maybe, yes.

Guy has a good start, what with the KE and all. He goes downhill though. Raven starts better than Guy when he does come along, and continues to improve as you continue playing. Lyn is locked to the Mani Kati and is as frail as anything.

Agreed about the comparisons, however. Raven doesn't fit in with your efficient "must finish maps asap" playstyle and you've rated him accordingly. However I and many others find him to be of much more use simply because we're not rushing for the exit for each and every chapter. He does participate in many people's frontlines, and he does a great job at it. This is basis for many people's votes here.

[dondon151]

Judging from the ratings people have actually given, Guy gets 4/10-7/10 depending on tastes; that puts him in the realm of "average" or "mediocre". Raven being Guy with more STR (the most common complaint of Guy) would put his pre-promo status to "Good".

Let's sandbag Guy a little and say that he's 6/0 when Raven joins. Guy has 9 str, 15 spd to Raven's 10 str, 15 spd. Hmm.

Considering that I (along with Horace, Kopf, and more) were hitting turn count minimums (or damn close to it) in early-to-mid-game in a random pick draft due to Marcus being free, this is a terrible argument. You just described almost every character for the first 10 or so chapters of the game, barring rare exceptions like knocking down a tree.

No, not really. Chapter 13 is a team effort required to get all of the secondary objectives. Chapter 14 is a rout; good luck trying to solo the entire thing with just Marcus. Chapters 13x and 15 are both defense.

He does participate in many people's frontlines, and he does a great job at it.

Disregarding movement and hyperefficiency, many units do a good job at ravaging their way through enemies.

(By the way, that previous post was a dig at your improper use of "arrogant." Just a heads up.)

Edited January 8, 2012 by dondon151

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Good luck getting him to promotion! His 5 move places him far behind the 8 movers. The enemies aren't strong enough to warrant his level of offense; it's overkill once raised up, and at base he is swordlocked. I'm not sure why you're ignoring the Swordlock in every single one of your posts, but it's there and it's really killing him.0

17x is a small map with almost all axe-users, Pirate Ship has a ton of action in a small area, you can send Raven with a Longsword to deal with that small island in Dread Isle, and he rapes the pegasi in 19x. It's not hard to get him to promotion with things like that. And as for "ignoring swordlock", I specifically mention it in my posts (and even what makes it so bad).

How is that a terrible argument when it's what happens? A unit that does not perform at the top is worthy of a not-top score. Which a 6/10 is, considering he's not *that* good outside of ranked play. He beats the hell out of every unmounted unit, sure... isn't that good enough? Having poor/swordlocked offense for half the game != very good.

At least you're not writing paragraphs about nothing like DA125, but that's all I will give you -_-

It's a terrible argument because that's what happens to everybody who's not Marcus (or, technically, Florina/Priscilla, since they bring unique utility). We could use the same logic to diminish Sain or Kent or Erk -- they're not Marcus, ergo they are worthless.

Note I am arguing that he is not "terrible", as dondon describes him, but definately decent or good (however you define those terms) at combat pre-promo (and great post-promo). I'm not saying "PRE-PROMO RAVEN HAS NO COMBAT FLAWS LOLOL". Raven's combat is better than Sain's overall (hardly saying Sain's is bad/poor or even mediocre, mind you), but he doesn't have a mount, so I give both characters identical or near identical scores.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[frat_tastic]

7/10

[Frosty]

Let's see here...

His earlygame is kinda shaky; due to the fact he's Sword-locked and faces a fairly hefty amount of Lance-wielding foes and Archers and Mages just love to mug him often.

Promotion-era though is a different story; now with Axes... He enjoys laughing at most foes! Downside? lolRES and he's not on a pony!

Verdict?

*drumrolls*

I'll be generous to give him an...

8.5

[Raven]

(By the way, that previous post was a dig at your improper use of "arrogant." Just a heads up.)

My mistake, I meant to say "ignorant". 5 am. Off to sleep.

[Lord Raven]

17x is a small map with almost all axe-users, Pirate Ship has a ton of action in a small area, you can send Raven with a Longsword to deal with that small island in Dread Isle, and he rapes the pegasi in 19x. It's not hard to get him to promotion with things like that. And as for "ignoring swordlock", I specifically mention it in my posts (and even what makes it so bad).

And I don't think that's enough to get him to the double digits. Maybe it is, I have no clue, but that's dondon's point; "goes to a corner and gains EXP."

It's a terrible argument because that's what happens to everybody who's not Marcus (or, technically, Florina/Priscilla, since they bring unique utility). We could use the same logic to diminish Sain or Kent or Erk -- they're not Marcus, ergo they are worthless.

No, we're using Marcus as an example of what exactly is happening throughout the game; Raven himself just lacks a mount therefore he can't catch up with units like Marcus and Sain who are assraping the game as it stands.

Note I am arguing that he is not "terrible", as dondon describes him, but definately decent or good (however you define those terms) at combat pre-promo (and great post-promo). I'm not saying "PRE-PROMO RAVEN HAS NO COMBAT FLAWS LOLOL". Raven's combat is better than Sain's overall (hardly saying Sain's is bad/poor or even mediocre, mind you), but he doesn't have a mount, so I give both characters identical or near identical scores.

He's not decent at combat pre-promotion. He's good enough after promotion, but Raven's combat is not as good as Sain's due to swordlock. Unpromoted Sain at least has javelins, unpromoted Raven has...

Sain also has the potential to promote, meaning he's not bullshitting around. Sain gets Hand Axes pretty much from the moment he joins (or gets to D rank, I forget if he starts at D rank or not or if Hand Axes are E or D rank etc) so therefore Sain is much better than Raven in an efficiency playthrough.

[BBHood217]

Hand axes and javelins are E rank.

[Elieson]

if raven is so mediocre, why does he go extremely quickly in draft runs following mounts and fliers?

and how hard is it to get raven 5 levels, considering that the game gives you so few enemy lances prior to ch 19?

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

And I don't think that's enough to get him to the double digits. Maybe it is, I have no clue, but that's dondon's point; "goes to a corner and gains EXP."

Never said that dondon wasn't wrong on the fact that units do that. But my point is that practically every unit falls under the "not-a-Marcus" category, with the possible exception of Sain promoted at LHM. You can't use that argument to say Raven is terrible, because I can apply that to most units in FE7 -- that's my point.

No, we're using Marcus as an example of what exactly is happening throughout the game; Raven himself just lacks a mount therefore he can't catch up with units like Marcus and Sain who are assraping the game as it stands.

There are enough enemies that Raven can nab kills even with Marcus and Sain "assraping" as you say. In 17x, there are three routes to take to kill enemies, Marcus will take one; in Pirate Ship, Marcus beelines to the boss and won't kill nearly everybody and that's plenty of enemies for Raven to kill (this chapter is way better to Raven when S-rank is concerned, because the chapter takes like 6 turns). C19x is Marcus going south and Raven going to the little island. 19x is axereaver pegasi. 20 has plenty of scraps to pick off of. Point being, Raven has adequate opportunities for XP in efficiency and a glutton of it in S rank.

He's not decent at combat pre-promotion. He's good enough after promotion, but Raven's combat is not as good as Sain's due to swordlock. Unpromoted Sain at least has javelins, unpromoted Raven has...

Yeah, he is fine (read: decent/good) at combat pre-promotion. When I say "overall", I mean pre-promo and post-promo combined. Raven gains way more than Sain from promotion (wouldn't you agree?).

Sain also has the potential to promote, meaning he's not bullshitting around. Sain gets Hand Axes pretty much from the moment he joins (or gets to D rank, I forget if he starts at D rank or not or if Hand Axes are E or D rank etc) so therefore Sain is much better than Raven in an efficiency playthrough.

First, are we assuming promoted Sain in LHM? Since he doesn't get hand axes until promo. And he has E rank on promo, not D (since you asked, I checked).

My ratings are weighted more in favor of S rank, which may explain our different views on Raven. He's really good in S ranking.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Galenforcer]

Raven's mediocre in terms of LTCs. He does drag the team behind until he promotes.

[Lord Raven]

Everyone's good in S-ranking and he's pretty much the best unit you've got there. In Efficiency? Not at all. Assuming Sain is LHM'd or not, he's still behind simply because of his lack of mount. dondon made use of him in 0% growths though, but complained about his lack of strength often times.

Nobody argues S-ranking anymore because it's basically "shuffle around units until your ranks are fulfilled."

Edited January 8, 2012 by Mercenary Raven

[Wen Yang]

Great combat - 9/10

No mount/staff utility - 5/10

Overall score - 7/10

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

dondon made use of him in 0% growths though, but complained about his lack of strength often times.

Well, I'm simply going to say much of Raven's decent STR comes from his 55% STR growth, one of the best in the game and nearly tied with Sain's. You obviously wouldn't enjoy such a perk in a 0% growth playthrough.

And no, not everybody is "good" or "equally good" in S rank runs (Bartre sucks all the same, Dorcas is still mediocre, Guy still has STR issues; many of the same problems are still there). You have to spread around EXP like mad, but some units are used more often than others. Raven is helped out by S rank because you get advantages by extending Pirate's Ship out for funds rank (you need more than 3 turns to steal both promo items) and because doing a glorified Marcus solo causes issues. Not to say Raven is bad in efficiency, just that he's better (as a growth unit w/ the added advantage of nice bases) in S rank.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[dondon151]

17x is a small map with almost all axe-users,

OK, so you send Raven up north to solo the lower-leveled pirates. He gets just over a level this way while Florina 4 turns the map.

Pirate Ship has a ton of action in a small area,

In a 3 turn map (that ends on player phase), how many enemies is Raven going to kill? Shamans hit him really hard and mercs just actually hit him; Raven also has trouble doubling enemy mercs, particularly if he tries to use a Steel Sword, and his damage output suffers because of it. Let's say that he gets to approximately 7.50 here.

you can send Raven with a Longsword to deal with that small island in Dread Isle,

This would be great for Raven if it weren't for the fact that the easiest way to get to Uhai is on that small island. I'm actually fairly sure that it's possible to 3 turn clear this map by going over the small island. So Raven is just forced to move southwards, where he can grab 2 cavalier kills and maybe engage some peg knights. Let's say that he gets to approximately 8.50 here.

and he rapes the pegasi in 19x.

They also don't give him that much EXP. If he goes into this map at 8.50, he won't reach level 10 by the end of the map even if he kills all 7 peg knights.

Chapter 20 is really the Marcus show, but Raven can reach level 10 here easily enough. Judging from the rate of EXP gain in previous maps, Raven doesn't get much from chapters 21 and 22, since they are 3 and 4 turns, respectively (chapter 22 may even be 3 turns). You'd probably want him promoted for chapter 23, because he actually matters there. If you hold off promotion until then, an estimation of 12/1 is probably reasonable.

I did most of this in my 0% growths run, and I'm pretty sure that most of the strategies were near-optimal for Raven's EXP gain.

It's a terrible argument because that's what happens to everybody who's not Marcus (or, technically, Florina/Priscilla, since they bring unique utility). We could use the same logic to diminish Sain or Kent or Erk -- they're not Marcus, ergo they are worthless.

Kent and Sain are not Marcus, but they are worth a lot. Erk can do some interesting things of questionable value, but he can do them nonetheless. Then there's middle-of-the-road crap like Bartre and Dorcas who at least have enough earlygame offense to 2RKO enemies, and then the real icing on the fecal cake like Wil and Rebecca, who are absolutely worthless. But OK, let's just say that Raven is the best early-joining unmounted unit in the game - he's first of a group of losers, so to speak, and that's not really that good.

Raven's combat is better than Sain's overall (hardly saying Sain's is bad/poor or even mediocre, mind you),

This is such an exceedingly minor advantage that I don't think balances out a movement advantage and full weapon triangle access.

[Parrhesia]

Raven's an exceptional combatant... as a hero. As a mercenary, eh, he's still fundamentally another swordsman on foot. This disgusts me.

8/10. I can see 8.5, but a lot of people gave him 9.5-10 which I felt he doesn't really deserve (for my scale, a 10 is Marcus and a 9.5 is... IIRC Sain, and everyone's down from there) so yeah

[Peppy]

Somebody should make a hack of this game where there are no mounted units. I am willing to bed this will change the rating of characters in that hack!

(The Cavalier and Paladin Class has the same caps but they have 5 movement this time! (6 as paladin)

Edited January 8, 2012 by Aelphaeis Mangarae