Foot soldiers vs. Mounted knights

[CrashGordon94]

No, it sounds pretty dire to me so I'm not going to just take your word for it.

[Othin]

Because it seems I can't learn from my mistakes:

Precisely what out of the things I've described would you consider "dire", and what negative impact do you believe they would have on how you play the games?

Edited January 19, 2012 by Othin

[CrashGordon94]

Most of the things it added really, the complex weapons, skills and equipment (which sound like they'd be a huge pain in the ass to think about) and the hugely overcomplicated mechanics (which sounds even worse) are the ones that come to mind first.

[Othin]

Most of the things it added really, the complex weapons, skills and equipment (which sound like they'd be a huge pain in the ass to think about) and the hugely overcomplicated mechanics (which sounds even worse) are the ones that come to mind first.

Specifics, please, like I already asked for. You know what that word means, correct?

http://www.serenesforest.net/bs/

Pick one thing - one weapon, or one skill - and describe a situation with a character using it, and what about that situation would make the gameplay experience feel worse to you than it would without it.

Or I can just give you an example if you would prefer: A Light Spear, a somewhat common spear. It has a Mt of 8 on its own, and can increase this Mt to up to 16 for one player phase attack depending on the distance moved. Explain exactly what about the experience of controlling a character with this spear would be worse than the experience of controlling a character with a simpler weapon from another game.

To make it even easier, here are some samples of the sorts of questions to answer in your explanation: Is it the fact that calculating damage would require you to, say, look at the grid and add 10 + 8 + 5 instead of just 10 + 10, and the extra term in the addition formula is so difficult as to make your brain melt? Is it that you don't want to have to worry about moving your character another space ahead to attack an enemy from a sub-optimal location to gain extra damage when it's needed, or holding them back on one turn so they could move the full distance the next turn? Would accounting for such considerations require so much strategy that your fingers would fall off?

(And to answer a concern I'm sure you or someone else will bring up: No, you can't make the movement arrow follow some contorted path to use up the extra distance while still traveling between the same two spaces.)

Edited January 19, 2012 by Othin

[CrashGordon94]

Specifics, please, like I already asked for. You know what that word means, correct?

http://www.serenesforest.net/bs/

Pick one thing - one weapon, or one skill - and describe a situation with a character using it, and what about that situation would make the gameplay experience feel worse to you than it would without it.

No thank you, I've given my general statements, I'm not gonna put stuff under the microscope because you think I'm not being "specific" enough!

[Othin]

No thank you, I've given my general statements, I'm not gonna put stuff under the microscope because you think I'm not being "specific" enough!

All you're demonstrating is that you haven't thought things through, and you have no reason to oppose it beyond your natural opposition to new ideas that seem to be in conflict with your original ones.

It appears to me that most people tend to have this opposition, certainly including myself. Think about it: If I had suggested any other change you felt was radical, to anything you like the way it is, would your reaction be any different? I think not. You would initially react this way, just like most people would, to good ideas just the same as to bad ideas. Surely you can think of times in your past when things have happened precisely this way, you opposing other new ideas for no reason, yet later, they turned out just fine?

Edited January 19, 2012 by Othin

[CrashGordon94]

Except I do have a reason, as simple as it might be: IT'S FRICKIN' COMPLICATED! I might not be willing to spend huge amounts of time finding evidence but almost every time you mention something from BS it sounds very complicated and you end up praising it.

[Othin]

Except I do have a reason, as simple as it might be: IT'S FRICKIN' COMPLICATED! I might not be willing to spend huge amounts of time finding evidence but almost every time you mention something from BS it sounds very complicated and you end up praising it.

And I'm saying you're overestimating how complicated it is. I only bring up the things I do because in my experience, I have found good reason to praise them.

Let's look at the previous example of a Light Spear. It has ~10 Mt when moving a short distance, ~14 Mt when moving a longer distance, and 8 Mt on the enemy phase and on successive attacks. That's not so complicated, now is it?

[Anouleth]

Specifics, please, like I already asked for. You know what that word means, correct?

http://www.serenesforest.net/bs/

Pick one thing - one weapon, or one skill - and describe a situation with a character using it, and what about that situation would make the gameplay experience feel worse to you than it would without it.

Or I can just give you an example if you would prefer: A Light Spear, a somewhat common spear. It has a Mt of 8 on its own, and can increase this Mt to up to 16 for one player phase attack depending on the distance moved. Explain exactly what about the experience of controlling a character with this spear would be worse than the experience of controlling a character with a simpler weapon from another game.

Okay, let me count the ways.

1. The position that you place your unit now also has an effect on their offense. Not only do you need to worry about positioning them so that they can do enough offense on this turn, but if you put them too close to the enemies, they won't be able to use their full move on the next turn. As a result, it's now necessary to figure out what the optimum position is in relation to your unit's offense, as well as other considerations. And you have to crunch all that into figuring out which is the optimum position overall.

2. Unless these weapons are ally only, you now have to worry about all that from your enemies too. So where you position your character can also have a significant and perhaps slightly unpredictable effect on your opponent's offense.

All of this contributes to making determining a good move, or even just figuring out how to keep a character alive, more complicated. And if you think that Fire Emblem is already sufficiently complicated and engaging, that can be a bad thing.

To make it even easier, here are some samples of the sorts of questions to answer in your explanation: Is it the fact that calculating damage would require you to, say, look at the grid and add 10 + 8 + 5 instead of just 10 + 10, and the extra term in the addition formula is so difficult as to make your brain melt?

Of course crashgordin can do basic fucking maths, but it's not FUN. Computation, simple addition problems, are not FUN. They're tedious and boring. People don't play computer games for the thrilling excitement of elementary addition.

Way to completely miss the point.

Is it that you don't want to have to worry about moving your character another space ahead to attack an enemy from a sub-optimal location to gain extra damage when it's needed, or holding them back on one turn so they could move the full distance the next turn? Would accounting for such considerations require so much strategy that your fingers would fall off?

[Othin]

You've given a lot of explanation for how the spear Mt system requires more strategy and no explanation whatsoever for how it requires too much strategy. FE is largely a simple series where brute force can typically be substituted for strategy; it is nowhere close to being "too complex" or being "too strategic".

Calculating 10+8+5 requires virtually zero effort and zero time, and certainly no remotely noticeable difference in the time or effort necessary compared to calculating 10+10. As such, there is essentially no added boredom or tedium.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Othin

[Parrhesia]

Fire Emblem as a system has MAJOR appeal stemming from the fact that its system is easy as hell to figure out. Yes, I could work out extra calculations, but that does not make them a good idea to implement. Simple elegance takes out convoluted bullshit ten times out of ten.

[Anouleth]

You've given a lot of explanation for how the spear Mt system requires more strategy and no explanation whatsoever for how it requires too much strategy.

How could I? The amount of strategy that a person is looking for varies from person to person. The vast majority of people are happy to play a game like Mario where there is little strategy. Obviously, for some people, requiring more strategy is a bad thing, for others, it's a good thing. But I highly doubt there is some untapped market of gamers out there that don't play Fire Emblem because it's too simple.

FE is largely a simple series where brute force can typically be substituted for strategy; it is nowhere close to being "too complex" or being "too strategic".

In your opinion.

And if you think that you can just "brute force" your way through Fire Emblem, you have just completely lost touch. Go ahead, try and brute force your way through FE7 HHM. Just get a bunch of good units and blindly charge forward every turn. I don't know, do you think that all the people who play Fire Emblem and have difficulty are just idiots? Because that's the implication I'm getting, if apparently you think it's so easy you can just charge forward blindly and beat every chapter on the first go.

Calculating 10+8+5 requires virtually zero effort and zero time, and certainly no remotely noticeable difference in the time or effort necessary compared to calculating 10+10. As such, there is essentially no added boredom or tedium.

It's counting squares. You have to count the number of squares you move (instead of just moving), then add it.

And even if it's very easy, it's still calculator work. i.e. not something I want to do. It's like how in D&D, sure it doesn't take very long to add up your attack bonus, but you still write it on your character sheet and refer to it rather than BAB, STR mod, misc. bonuses from weapon and so on.

[Othin]

It seems we're using different definitions of "brute force". On my current FE8 run, I haven't been rushing blindly, but I haven't been worrying much about details, either. It's been fun, and being a no-resets run, it's been bloody, but it hasn't required a whole lot of what I would call strategy. But you're right that that isn't exactly objective; I confess that my math and strategy capabilities are hardly typical.

Stuff sometimes has to be re-calculated in D&D, too. Difference is, D&D won't show you the result of that addition and counting on a battle stats screen, while Berwick Saga of course does.

[Anouleth]

It seems we're using different definitions of "brute force". On my current FE8 run, I haven't been rushing blindly, but I haven't been worrying much about details, either.

Well, there you go. FE8 isn't called an easy game for no reason. In many ways, it requires less strategy than FE7 does, especially if you're willing to take things more slowly and if you take the easier Eirika route.

Stuff sometimes has to be re-calculated in D&D, too. Difference is, D&D won't show you the result of that addition and counting on a battle stats screen, while Berwick Saga of course does.

Strategy involves planning ahead. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's the whole definition of strategy. And the game is not going to tell you how what attack you have next turn, or what attack the enemy has on their turn, thus making you do number crunching to form a plan.

[Othin]

Well, there you go. FE8 isn't called an easy game for no reason. In many ways, it requires less strategy than FE7 does, especially if you're willing to take things more slowly and if you take the easier Eirika route.

Strategy involves planning ahead. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's the whole definition of strategy. And the game is not going to tell you how what attack you have next turn, or what attack the enemy has on their turn, thus making you do number crunching to form a plan.

I've neither been moving slowly nor been taking Eirika's route. And a no-reset run tends to cause added issues a regular run, FE7 or FE8, would otherwise lack, having character deaths. Yet I still tend to find myself without much planning ahead to do - and according to you, that means not using much strategy.

You look at a number and add another number. After that, you still have to compare to Def and HP, and perhaps other things; the small "other number" that often doesn't need to be calculated precisely anyway is a small addition to the overall calculation, and it's part of increasing strategy in a number-based game.

[Refa]

How could I? The amount of strategy that a person is looking for varies from person to person. The vast majority of people are happy to play a game like Mario where there is little strategy. Obviously, for some people, requiring more strategy is a bad thing, for others, it's a good thing. But I highly doubt there is some untapped market of gamers out there that don't play Fire Emblem because it's too simple.

There is, it's called Final Fantasy Tactics fans.

(I'm also fairly serious, I can think of several people who just got...bored with FE because it wasn't as complex or engaging (take that as you will) as FFT)

Edited January 20, 2012 by Refa

[Anouleth]

There is, it's called Final Fantasy Tactics fans.

(I'm also fairly serious, I can think of several people who just got...bored with FE because it wasn't as complex or engaging (take that as you will) as FFT)

I only played FFTA, but maybe they took out features in the transition... from what I heard, they had fairly similar mechanics. I remember playing a chapter of FFT and not really seeing anything outrageously different to FFTA. But I never found FFTA to be very strategic.

[Parrhesia]

I only played FFTA, but maybe they took out features in the transition... from what I heard, they had fairly similar mechanics. I remember playing a chapter of FFT and not really seeing anything outrageously different to FFTA. But I never found FFTA to be very strategic.

Similar mechanics, but FFTA was easy enough to be played in your sleep. FFT, less so.

That said,

On my current FE8 run, I haven't been rushing blindly, but I haven't been worrying much about details, either. It's been fun

but I haven't been worrying much about details, either. It's been fun

haven't been worrying much

It's been fun

What else really matters, in the end? Edited January 20, 2012 by Furetchen

[Refa]

I only played FFTA, but maybe they took out features in the transition... from what I heard, they had fairly similar mechanics. I remember playing a chapter of FFT and not really seeing anything outrageously different to FFTA. But I never found FFTA to be very strategic.

More strategic than FE? Hell no. But...I never said anything of the sort. I said it was more complex than FE, and yes, the original was pretty damn complex.

[Othin]

That said, What else really matters, in the end?

It's fun, but that doesn't mean it's as fun as it could be. Being good is good; being excellent is better.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Othin

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

All I can say is that FE is nice because it doesn't put the complexity in the calculations, but rather in the gameplay. FE's mechanics are a testiment to the adage that "there's more than one way to skin a cat", which is evident in the large variability you may see people rate certain characters based on their playstyle, even if they are all gunning for the same goal (LTC or S/SSS/AAAA-rank or just beating the game).

Maybe I'm biased, but a spend enough time trying to plan out certain chapters for H3 LTC even with simple equations. All these extra crazy mechanics would just make it more a pain in the ass to calculate everything and make sure it works than actually add any depth to the game. I spend enough time in Battle Preparations, thank you.

There are other tactical games that view things differently, and that's fine. I'm not a fan of FFT simply because it's way, way, WAY too easy to break the game once you get so much customization of characters (Shiahadori & Arithmatic say what?).

[Othin]

The reason there's so much variation in character ratings is because the characters are so close to interchangeable. Differences tend to only show up when you look at distinctions that matter little when playing the actual game anyway. All these "different" ways to skin a cat turn out to be almost exactly the same.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Othin

[Elieson]

No thank you, I've given my general statements, I'm not gonna put stuff under the microscope because you think I'm not being "specific" enough!

Wait, so yet again, you refuse to back up your claims with anything more than a generalized assumption?

Is it that you don't understand it well enough to argue in defense of your strong opinions, our you just lack the ambition to provide actual evidence[b/] explaining your beliefs?

[CrashGordon94]

Wait, so yet again, you refuse to back up your claims with anything more than a generalized assumption?

Is it that you don't understand it well enough to argue in defense of your strong opinions, our you just lack the ambition to provide actual evidence[b/] explaining your beliefs?

The second, sort of. I have my general statement that I believe explains my postition on the matter and I'm only willing to put so much effort into an internet argument. Plus I think Othin's just being picky about "evidence".

[IGdood]

Um.... -sees all these posts-

Umm....

I'll take foot soldiers since I'm primarily an infantry commander in my other non-FE games. Poor beggars.

I like holding the line.