Foot soldiers vs. Mounted knights

[Celice]

Wait, so yet again, you refuse to back up your claims with anything more than a generalized assumption?

Is it that you don't understand it well enough to argue in defense of your strong opinions, our you just lack the ambition to provide actual evidence[b/] explaining your beliefs?

You forgot putting up with stubborn arrogance.

[Dark Sage]

It seems we're using different definitions of "brute force". On my current FE8 run, I haven't been rushing blindly, but I haven't been worrying much about details, either. It's been fun, and being a no-resets run, it's been bloody, but it hasn't required a whole lot of what I would call strategy. But you're right that that isn't exactly objective; I confess that my math and strategy capabilities are hardly typical.

@Crash: Why are you arguing about a video game you've never actually played with somebody who has spent hundreds of hours on it and clearly knows what he is talking about? You seem to think that adding anything that's even a little complicated is bad and that things need to be always simple. While I agree that adding in complicated mecahnics is not necessarily good, it is not necessarily bad either. Having never played Berwick Saga, I can't form an opinion on whether or not lances having their damage affected by movement and variable weapon damage is a bad thing there because I don't know how well it works in that game. You don't either? GTFO then.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Gafgarion

[Othin]

Say, might anyone be interested in watching an LP of Berwick Saga? I've been thinking about doing one once I finish my current playthrough, and I think it could help paint a better picture of what I'm talking about at times like this, as well as being (hopefully) fun to watch. (If nothing else, the music should turn out to be reason enough to watch it.)

Granted, this is really getting off topic now, but it's also a bit far in the future for me to be ready to make a thread about it just yet. So I'm not going to get into some huge discussion about it here, just maybe one more post about it for now if anyone has any questions/thoughts.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Othin

[Anouleth]

Say, might anyone be interested in watching an LP of Berwick Saga? I've been thinking about doing one once I finish my current playthrough, and I think it could help paint a better picture of what I'm talking about at times like this, as well as being (hopefully) fun to watch. (If nothing else, the music should turn out to be reason enough to watch it.)

That sounds p. good.

[Parrhesia]

I'd watch that. I'm very unlikely to ever play it personally, so I'd like to see how it plays out.

[The_Purple_Knight]

Say, might anyone be interested in watching an LP of Berwick Saga?

Oh hell yeah! I really wish there was a decent lp of that game .

[Celice]

Granted, this is really getting off topic now, but it's also a bit far in the future for me to be ready to make a thread about it just yet. So I'm not going to get into some huge discussion about it here, just maybe one more post about it for now if anyone has any questions/thoughts.

It is. Are you going to have helpful commentary though? 'Cause otherwise, we can just watch the let's plays on niconico for the same effect :o

[Othin]

It is. Are you going to have helpful commentary though? 'Cause otherwise, we can just watch the let's plays on niconico for the same effect :o

Absolutely. I intend to make thorough commentary to make everything clear for anyone assumed to have no background knowledge of Berwick Saga. More than YayMarsha's run.

My hope is that rather than being used as a substitute for playing Berwick Saga, this and everything else I've been doing will make Berwick Saga more accessible so that people really will play it. But I realize that is going to take time.

Also, as inspired by Furet's FE12 LP, this will be no-resets (except Game Overs). Which is going to be damn difficult, but I think I can do it.

[CrashGordon94]

I think the no resets thing might be a poor idea. It wouldn't seem prudent for such a playthrough to be a challenge run.

[The_Purple_Knight]

Please dont do the no resets thing just do a very informative walkthrough. You know like with character recommendations and whatnot .

[Celice]

I'd rather not have too much recommendations going on, myself. If I'm gonna watch the videos and get inspired to play the game, I don't want to have my experience malformed by his tips. I like to play as blindly as possible my first time.

[Othin]

It would be difficult to recommend characters anyway, since most of the characters are good in their own ways but have their own drawbacks, as well. I do intend to explain each of those points so that people can understand the characters without knowing Japanese, though.

As for the no resets, I'm getting the idea from continuing my earlier (suspended) playthrough that no resets probably wouldn't be feasible, but at least minimum resets is something I'm getting interested in making my "standard" way of playing. And I was planning on doing the run for that purpose (and to make sure it was feasible in Berwick Saga) before Furet's run gave me the idea of making it an LP, so that's not changing.

[The_Purple_Knight]

I'd rather not have too much recommendations going on, myself. If I'm gonna watch the videos and get inspired to play the game, I don't want to have my experience malformed by his tips. I like to play as blindly as possible my first time.

I enjoy tips but I can understand why you wouldn't it can be fun to playthrough game blind . Just not for me I like to know what's going I like to know what characters are shit and other things that can really screw you an srpg if youre not careful . The first fire emblem game I played was fe11 an I played it blind and it was train wreck . I had to restart 3 times I used all the worst characters and I missed alot of items. So ever since I've general tried to learn as much about the game is possiable before I get really into it.

[CrashGordon94]

Minimal resets is more reasonable, I'd say. I could take that.

As for tips, a few really good ones here and there would be cool, and maybe an small assessment of the characters, something like "This is so-and-so, he has pretty poor stats but an excellent weapon selection. I tend to personally find him quite useful because his skill really comes in handy but I can see why somebody wouldn't like him.".

[Refa]

There are other tactical games that view things differently, and that's fine. I'm not a fan of FFT simply because it's way, way, WAY too easy to break the game once you get so much customization of characters (Shiahadori & Arithmatic say what?).

I'm doubting your knowledge of FFT mechanics, because it takes a damn long time to get Shihadori (which, BTW, isn't as broken as you think) or Arithmeticks (which is a pain in the ass to learn and is probably MORE broken than you think). You know what? FE is FAR FAR easier to break. Seth says hello, and of course there are the Warp staves in FE1,FE2,FE3,FE5,FE11, and FE12.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

I'm doubting your knowledge of FFT mechanics, because it takes a damn long time to get Shihadori (which, BTW, isn't as broken as you think) or Arithmeticks (which is a pain in the ass to learn and is probably MORE broken than you think). You know what? FE is FAR FAR easier to break. Seth says hello, and of course there are the Warp staves in FE1,FE2,FE3,FE5,FE11, and FE12.

1) Pain in the ass to get or not, Ramza perma-bravery raise + a mechanic that allows you to avoid melee/arrow/bolt attacks with a Bravery% success rate is horribly broken. It's basically near immunity to everything not spells, and even THAT can be rectified with Athiest. You obviously know how ridiculous Arithmaticks is. Not to mention there are countless stupidly powerful (less broken, but STILL too strong), but easier to set up, ability combos in this game. I just pointed out the most egregious of them. It can take a long time to maximize some FE characters too, but you don't suddenly see them becoming literally impossible to beat unless you seriously rig growths (or are Siguard/Seth). FFT's sheer customizability is fun, but you can't honestly argue that it doesn't leave more room for broken combos -- come on, this is an obvious statement.

2) Seth, meet Cid Orlandeau. Yeah, Seth has more availability, but he breaks an already broken easy game, and probably the easiest in the series (or damn close).

3) FE1-3 were very early FEs (in the early era of gaming to boot, where numerous games had similar issues) and didn't have much in the way of balance yet. FE5 has a ranking system that can only be maxed with very intelligent use of warp, and FE12 H3+ has no warp (only the easier modes). FE11 is probably the only REAL gripe here.

4) Your game-breaking issues with FE don't even have anything to do with customizability (or lack thereof) in FE being the root cause, but rather IS being idiots or intentionally pandering to a more casual audience.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Refa]

1) Pain in the ass to get or not, Ramza perma-bravery raise + a mechanic that allows you to avoid melee/arrow/bolt attacks with a Bravery% success rate is horribly broken. It's basically near immunity to everything not spells, and even THAT can be rectified with Athiest. You obviously know how ridiculous Arithmaticks is. Not to mention there are countless stupidly powerful (less broken, but STILL too strong), but easier to set up, ability combos in this game. I just pointed out the most egregious of them. It can take a long time to maximize some FE characters too, but you don't suddenly see them becoming literally impossible to beat unless you seriously rig growths (or are Siguard/Seth). FFT's sheer customizability is fun, but you can't honestly argue that it doesn't leave more room for broken combos -- come on, this is an obvious statement.

2) Seth, meet Cid Orlandeau. Yeah, Seth has more availability, but he breaks an already broken easy game, and probably the easiest in the series (or damn close).

3) FE1-3 were very early FEs (in the early era of gaming to boot, where numerous games had similar issues) and didn't have much in the way of balance yet. FE5 has a ranking system that can only be maxed with very intelligent use of warp, and FE12 H3+ has no warp (only the easier modes). FE11 is probably the only REAL gripe here.

4) Your game-breaking issues with FE don't even have anything to do with customizability (or lack thereof) in FE being the root cause, but rather IS being idiots or intentionally pandering to a more casual audience.

You haven't actually said anything to prove me wrong. First you say that FFT is customizable, which means there are more variations on it being broken, All of which actually take, you know, some semblance of effort to pull off. This is the point you are not getting. It's like me saying FE is easy if I arena grind/boss abuse. I could win any chapter no problem with all of my characters at max level in like Ch. 5 or something of any FE game. Your Orlandeau statement doesn't say anything because my point about Seth was that he makes the game broken from the very beginning with no effort on the part of the player. You, the player, don't have to put any effort into breaking the game because it does it for you. And saying my issues don't have anything to do with customizability is missing the point. I said it's far easier to break FE than it is in FFT. I never said that's because of customizability, or that there are more ways to break FE. Just because there are like 2000 ways to break FFT and 10 ways to break FE, the 10 ways are always much easier to pull off and do with less effort. Does this make FFT more balanced? No, but I don't believe I've said that. FE is just easier to break, especially if you know what you're doing.

tl, dr; All of the broken parts of any FE game are just handed to you while in FFT, you have to work to make your characters broken.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Refa

[Anouleth]

Breaking the game in FFTA was pretty fun... like getting six Assassins and OHKOing every enemy before they could even move. Or in FFTA2 killing enemies with Geomancy!Parivirs that did like 600 damage in one hit. Or getting 6 Scholars with Bone Plate and Shadow Shade Tome and just spamming the same spell until everything was dead. Or Doublecasting Summoners with Blood Price. Or perfect accuracy Moogle Gunners that could inflict Stop from 8 spaces away.

Then again, breaking the game in FE is also pretty fun. Like beating 4-P in two turns. Or watching entire armies suicide into Jill.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Anouleth

[Ether]

Say, might anyone be interested in watching an LP of Berwick Saga? I've been thinking about doing one once I finish my current playthrough, and I think it could help paint a better picture of what I'm talking about at times like this, as well as being (hopefully) fun to watch. (If nothing else, the music should turn out to be reason enough to watch it.)

Granted, this is really getting off topic now, but it's also a bit far in the future for me to be ready to make a thread about it just yet. So I'm not going to get into some huge discussion about it here, just maybe one more post about it for now if anyone has any questions/thoughts.

I would certainly enjoy that myself. Only reason why I haven't played it yet is because my laptop doesn't like emulating PS2, I've tried, it wasn't pretty... anyway, I do hope you go along with this.

[dondon151]

tl, dr; All of the broken parts of any FE game are just handed to you while in FFT, you have to work to make your characters broken.

This is actually not even quite true in a lot of cases. There are a lot of ways to not break FE correctly; we've become very indoctrinated to the practices that optimize game completion, but these things are not that easy to simply figure out.

[Lightli]

Mounted Knights include the Christmas Cavaliers, Seth, Sigurd, Marcus, Marcus, Seth, Sigurd, Franz, Seth, and Seth.

Foot soldiers are better known as loldiers and are cannon fodder for said mounted knights. Also Amelia, but she doesn't even qualify for cannon fodder.

How is this a quesiton

[CrashGordon94]

By "foot soldiers" they didn't mean the Soldier class but any infantry units, like Fighters/Warriors, Mercs/Heroes, Myrms/SMs, Mages/Sages, Archers/Snipers and so forth.

[MacLovin]

Aside from Theives, Heroes and some magic users, and Swordmasters .

I can't think of any good growth foot units, of the type not mentioned above

Lot?

Gonzo?

Oswin?

Geese?

Fe10 nerfed Pallies, but Haar and Titania break the GMs, while the DB has Jill and the CRK have a ton of them.

[deranger]

I can't think of any good growth foot units, of the type not mentioned above

Lot?

30% in str, skl, and spd?

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Aside from Theives, Heroes and some magic users, and Swordmasters .

I can't think of any good growth foot units, of the type not mentioned above

Other than the fact that, when looking over it, the group of prepromotes (bases units), mounts, and foot units of those classes constitute like 70-80% of all FE characters (and a decent chunk of those remaining are armors, which auto-suck in efficiency over the long term), let's make a short (and likely very incomplete) list...

1) Neph - Soldier

2) Hector - Axe Lord

3) FE10!Shinon - Sniper

4) FE11!Barst - Fighter

5) FE9!Mordecai - Tiger

6) Othin - Fighter

7) Halvan - Fighter

More Questionable Ones That I Still Find Good (Or, In The Case of FE6, See As High on Tier Lists):

1) Lyn - Blade Lord

2) Gonzales - Brigand

3) Fe9!Lethe - Cat

There are many other (non-Est-archetype) characters that would qualify as being good to awesome when trained but annoying to do so (and such units are frowned upon by many in SF), but I won't list them here to avoid the inevitable shitstorm.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania