Rate the Unit, Day 28: Rath

[MacLovin]

8/10

Bow locked until promotion, however that is resolved upon promotion, and he has a horse, and comes with a short bow, which is rather nice for that early in the game.

You're new here.

HHM RATH COMES EARLY?

I guess because of dat horse.......

[Renall]

3/10. I want to like him, I honestly do, but I've never gotten any particular use out of him in HHM. Every time I try, he ends up suboptimal and gets dropped. Getting a new weapon after promotion doesn't seem to be any help, either.

[Aran613]

You're new here.

HHM RATH COMES EARLY?

I guess because of dat horse.......

LHM + HHM

He might come late there, but early relative to the beginning which means time for easy leveling, so if you give him an extra kill early throughout the game, he won't suffer AS BAD later, where he can turn out as a decent unit.

Ratings are supposed to be from when they first appear.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Aran613

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

you mean, wil needs to have the thing stuck up his ass to do any damage

and like brave bow is good because bow users can double mercs and also kill mages before they can counter so...

1) No, I mean brave bow is nice when Wil (or base Rath) aren't doubling yet because it literally doubles their damage. Nothing more.

2) Yes, fair enough point of the casters (although, depending on the situation & player/enemy AS, longbow can do the same thing). As for mercs....that still is saying the same thing as I did (that it's nice until Wil [and I forgot to say Rath] can double naturally).

3) Killers and silvers are still better overall. The amount of sheer damage they can do is crazy...and the best part is that they at most cost the lowest CON bow users 1 (ONE) AS. If brave bow's WT was 3-4 lower, it'd be way more awesome.

well yeah

cuz she's still terrible

I don't even know what point you're trying to make here. That Nino would still be considered terrible even if we ignore her two largest faults by far (that is, her crap availability and her really low base level)? Because she wouldn't. Those two things are WHY we consider her bad, despite her awesome growths.

EDIT: @Aran612: The enemy units in LHM are level 1, meaning Rath gets very little experience from them. He mostly has to rely on boss kills for experience; he most likely will struggle a little to hit level 8, and be VERY VERY hard pressed to hit level 9. To put things in perspective, I recently did a Wil solo of LHM and he's only level 11 going into C10. You could, of course, bypass Rath's crap base level with Lungdren abuse, but there's a ton of reasons why that's usually frowned upon.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Shadow Mir]

LHM + HHM

He might come late there, but early relative to the beginning which means time for easy leveling, so if you give him an extra kill early throughout the game, he won't suffer AS BAD later, where he can turn out as a decent unit.

I already stated this once, but Rath doesn't benefit much from Lyn mode thanks to being overleveled (the highest level generics in Lyn mode are only level 3).

Edited January 17, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[dondon151]

1) No, I mean brave bow is nice when Wil (or base Rath) aren't doubling yet because it literally doubles their damage. Nothing more.

except wil just can't double

2) Yes, fair enough point of the casters (although, depending on the situation & player/enemy AS, longbow can do the same thing). As for mercs....that still is saying the same thing as I did (that it's nice until Wil [and I forgot to say Rath] can double naturally).

wil doubling mercs naturally

ahaha you're funny

3) Killers and silvers are still better overall. The amount of sheer damage they can do is crazy...and the best part is that they at most cost the lowest CON bow users 1 (ONE) AS. If brave bow's WT was 3-4 lower, it'd be way more awesome.

you don't get a silver bow until louise and killer bow has less mt and is inconsistent at doing more damage (but you rig crits all the time so i can understand your confusion)

I don't even know what point you're trying to make here. That Nino would still be considered terrible even if we ignore her two largest faults by far (that is, her crap availability and her really low base level)? Because she wouldn't. Those two things are WHY we consider her bad,

but you can't ignore her bad bases because she's still struggling relative to the rest of the team

[Thor Odinson]

And even if you do get him more than 2 levels in LHM, unlike having Sainadin or Kentadin, Rath being overleveled doesn't impact the gameplay significantly at all. Plus since he only has Player Phase in LHM so overleveling him is a lot more annoying than just tanking it through with Sain/Kent, who has the added benefit of promoting right in LHM.

Base level really isn't much of an issue. Say Nino has 20s in every stat except HP instead but still level 5. She'll actually have good combat against enemies, and getting her those 5 levels to promote due to her low level is very easy. Obviously nobody in their right minds would give a level 5 unpromoted unit 20s in every stat, but the point is that the bases relative to their performance against enemies still holds significant importance even when disregarding base level or jointime issues.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[Baldrick]

but you can't ignore her bad bases because she's still struggling relative to the rest of the team

Base level really isn't much of an issue. Say Nino has 20s in every stat except HP instead but still level 5. She'll actually have good combat against enemies, and getting her those 5 levels to promote due to her low level is very easy. Obviously nobody in their right minds would give a level 5 unpromoted unit 20s in every stat, but the point is that the bases relative to their performance against enemies still holds significant importance even when disregarding base level or jointime issues.

I think the implication is if you ignore her base level, you also ignore her stats.

Anyway, Rath.

17 con is very sexy.

Just about everything else is not.

3/10 because he can taxi fatties.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

except wil just can't double

He does later in the game.

wil doubling mercs naturally

ahaha you're funny

Wil does later on, because enemy AS doesn't scale. He's around 14-15 AS at 20/1, which is around FFO. That means he can double those mercs. And he doubles slower enemies (i.e. practically all of the unpromoted ones) sooner.

you don't get a silver bow until louise and killer bow has less mt and is inconsistent at doing more damage (but you rig crits all the time so i can understand your confusion)

When you get silver is irrelevent in asking which is the best bow (although Rienfleche would win in non S-rank runs or if you've trashed Funds rank), and I've only ever played FE7 on a GBA micro, so I've never forced a crit with a killer. Killer is nice when you can't ORKO with silver for some reason and allows you to have a ~64% chance of a ORKO (although you're just trying to troll me, so facts like these don't matter); never mind that killer has the MT of steel while weighing less and coming with 30% crit -- how is that bad?

but you can't ignore her bad bases because she's still struggling relative to the rest of the team

This is obviously what I meant by "base level", since they usually correspond to base stats.

EDIT: Why am I arguing with a guy who's main goal is just to troll "Rate the Unit" threads with half-assed ratings and logic and then try to poke fights with me?

Edited January 17, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Thor Odinson]

I dunno, I see base level and stats otherwise as two different things. See Heath. He joins pretty underleveled, but his base stats actually are good enough to be useful right off the bat, so his only issue is needing 3 levels before he can promote and his underleveledness doesn't hurt him much. Nino doesn't have bases for shit.

Okay well they're good for a level 5 mage

but they're utterly shit compared to the enemies she's dealing with. Heath's stats, on the other hand, are perfectly good for dealing with the enemies around his jointime.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

I dunno, I see base level and stats otherwise as two different things. See Heath. He joins pretty underleveled, but his base stats actually are good enough to be useful right off the bat, so his only issue is needing 3 levels before he can promote and his underleveledness doesn't hurt him much. Nino doesn't have bases for shit.

Well, I guess I'm sorry then. I meant base stats, since in combat that's all that matters. Base level comes into play when it determines how much your units can potentially grow (and in S rank runs, how fast they gain EXP), but it in itself rarely comes into play. For most units, base level and base stats go roughly hand-in-hand, so I was a little sloppy with my terminology.

Okay well they're good for a level 5 mage

but they're utterly shit compared to the enemies she's dealing with. Heath's stats, on the other hand, are perfectly good for dealing with the enemies around his jointime.

Yeah, I don't disagree. My whole point was that we can't ignore availability and base stats in ratings (mainly by saying that it would result in massively inflated ratings for a unit like Nino, where those are her biggest weaknesses) when somebody asked if/why we should, which somehow devolved into a spat between me and dondon.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Excellen Browning]

Wil needs 16-17 AS to double most/all enemies in the game. Starts with 6 CON then gets 7 after promotion. So only when using the Iron Bow he takes no AS penalties and no penalty from the Killer after promotion. Considering his base stats he needs on average to reach 20/6 to reach 16AS and 20/8 for 17AS.

AKA he receives 24-26 levels in LHM and HHM, if not receiving a Speedwing(which would be silly) to just be able to double the faster units. There's only a couple of units who could reach this kind of level gain efficiency play and I doubt it''s reachable in ranked play also, though I have no experience with that. Not to mention you have to go out of your way to allow Wil to get kills for most of the game and that hitting 17AS isn't anything special - especially not with that kind of level gain.

[Thor Odinson]

I'm just saying the premises of the ratings, for the purposes of this thread, has availability mattering less than it is in tier threads, since it counts the contributions of the unit from his/her first joining in HHM. Nino contributes nothing except perhaps some exp in ranked and require serious babying just to even be half-way functional, but other low-availability units like Pent or Vaida or Athos may not necessarily be rated low just because they join late, since they're useful right off the bat.

Okay I'm counting votes now guis

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Wil needs 16-17 AS to double most/all enemies in the game. Starts with 6 CON then gets 7 after promotion. So only when using the Iron Bow he takes no AS penalties and no penalty from the Killer after promotion. Considering his base stats he needs on average to reach 20/6 to reach 16AS and 20/8 for 17AS.

Looking at the HHM enemies for C28x (which is as late as I can get data for), 20/1 Wil (and come on, 20/1 is a reasonable assumption for level for most units except on the highest efficiency runs) doubles MOST (80% or so) of the enemies. Of those he doesn't, a couple are Wyvern Lords, who he trashes by reason of being a bow user; I'd guess he'd OHKO them or come damn close to it.

Also, Wil basically uses solely killers and silvers past promotion, so he eats no AS loss post-promo, period.

AKA he receives 24-26 levels in LHM and HHM, if not receiving a Speedwing(which would be silly) to just be able to double the faster units. There's only a couple of units who could reach this kind of level gain efficiency play and I doubt it''s reachable in ranked play also, though I have no experience with that.

All I will say is that 20/5-20/10 is typical for growth units by Final on S-rank runs for EHM...probably slightly higher for HHM (20/6-20/12, probably) due to extra chapters. Also, I never assume giving stat boosters to units when evaluating them (and if I ever did, I'd make sure to point it out).

Wow, I will say...at least dondon has a nice way to derail topics into Wil debating. Can we redirect the convo to Rath?

EDIT: Ah, nice. Pent's next, right? Easy rating. :D

Edited January 18, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Thor Odinson]

Nope, Hawkeye.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Nope, Hawkeye.

How did I forget about him? Derp.

[MacLovin]

How did I forget about him? Derp.

YOU FORGOT THE MANLIEST MAN ON FOOT IN FE7!!!

You do your brethren shame!

[dondon151]

He does later in the game.

doubles sooner than bartre, dorcas, and wallace

kind of like winning the special olympics when you aren't a combination of mentally retarded and quadriplegic

He's around 14-15 AS at 20/1, which is around FFO.

nope try like 12/1 at best

(although you're just trying to troll me, so facts like these don't matter);

pretty sure you're just trying to troll everyone because your assertions are about as accurate as rick santorum

EDIT: Why am I arguing with a guy who's main goal is just to troll "Rate the Unit" threads with half-assed ratings and logic and then try to poke fights with me?

because

it's way too easy

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

because

it's way too easy

Fair enough. I made a mistake in believing I can take you seriously on some level, one that I will never make again.

[BBHood217]

How did I forget about him? Derp.

And then after Hawkeye is Geitz, Wallace, Farina, and then Pent. Or Louise first if alphabetical, then Pent.

[MacLovin]

After this, let's make an fe6 one!

[Bluedoom]

8/10.

Has horse. Though underlevelled, ends up awesome if trained(he's not too hard to lvl up in, say Living Legend.) He also gets a sword. If I ever use an archer in FE7, its always going to be Rath.

That and he's much cooler than Dayan. Rath should have got a title *sniff* oh yeah, and he's Sue's father dammit. I'd like to think her cannon mother is Lyn. <3

[Loki Laufeyson]

Oh Rath. Such a polarizing unit. Dude isnt bad but hes got a lot against him. He does have Lyn mode but hes not doing a lot outside utility there and even then, other units are doing the same thing perhaps better.

Pros:

Unique class to the game. (no one else is a nomad)

Good supports. (His Lyn support is cool.)

Decent bow rank.

Horsie.

Cons:

Bow user. They have a rough time of it.

Comes back into the team a bit late.

Comes back really underleveled.

Hard to train unless arena abusing.

4/10. (biased rating: 7.5/10. I can make Rath work and well. He just needs the love. On average, he turns out as a very solid unit for me.)