FRLG tier list

[frat_tastic]

I guess I could get behind Charmander and Bulbasaur switching places. Kanto really shits on Grass types.

I wouldn't say Farfetch'd>Pidgey. IMO Pidgey at least has some long-term use in that Pidgeot isn't terrible. Farfetch'd HAS to rely on buffing moves to be any good.

Nidos definitely not below the starters, I don't think anyone even mentioned that.

In fact, I'd think maybe even the opposite. Could Nidoqueen be better than Charmander/Bulbasaur?

[Espinosa]

Has someone actually used Farfetch'd?

I did in the original RB, where he didn't have Adamant nature, Stick and where getting a critical hit would cancel out SD bonuses. He should be even better here, though he learns his power-up moves later.

[Baldrick]

1. it's "a lot longer"

2. yes they should; it is better to kill things fast than it is to kill things slow. if this weren't a consideration, then there would be no point to most of this tier list because x items let pokemon take on basically anything.

The extra 30 seconds or w/e needed to take down generics is irrelevant unless you're doing a speedrun (in which case, training anything other than Squirtle/Nido/Jynx from Vermillion onwards is a waste of exp, and blitzing Brock and Misty is more of a timesaver than roasting bugs) and Charmander's ability to amplify an advantage is less valuable Bulbasaur's ability to reverse a disadvantage.

[MacLovin]

Thinking about raising Jynx and Mr. Mime.

Jynx-

Trade Exp

Ice Punch+Psychic+Sweet/Lovely Kiss

CM.

Water Pulse

e4 cries.

Mr. Mime-

TB

Barrier

Reflect

Psychic

Magical Leaf

CM

Baton Pass

Recycle.

[Titamon]

The extra 30 seconds or w/e needed to take down generics is irrelevant unless you're doing a speedrun (in which case, training anything other than Squirtle/Nido/Jynx from Vermillion onwards is a waste of exp, and blitzing Brock and Misty is more of a timesaver than roasting bugs) and Charmander's ability to amplify an advantage is less valuable Bulbasaur's ability to reverse a disadvantage.

Please stop

[Zkirsche]

Regardless of whether Farfetch'd is better than Pidgey or not, surely the two are comparable at the very least? But the former is in crap tier while the latter is in lower mid.

Edit: If Farfecth'd is basically Pidgeotto without another evolution then surely the two are comparable as the majority of the game will be completed with Pidgey as a Pidgeotto

Also I agree with Tangela moving down, it is simply too high for what it does (aka: absolutely nothing).

I maintain that Jynx is not better than Staryu, Staryu is very easy to train anyway, has a bigger movepool, is faster to compensate for the slightly worse nuking power and has recover and arguably better durability (5 HP and 10 Sp.D (Jynx) vs 50 Def (Starmie)).

With Mr Mime the only pokemon that I can see being worse is Mankey and maybe Zapdos, although Zapdos pretty much ruins everything forever with thunderbolt and drill peck and has better stats all around except for Sp.D (which Mime wins) and Spd (which is equal for both) and also doesn't require any training to do so. That said, Mr mime levels quickly because of being from a trade and helps with both Koga and Eirika (although I think it is possible to beat Koga before Eirika so maybe just Koga).

Snorlax is crazy good with his defences and offence. Ice beam/Brick Break/Earthquake/Rest makes him unkillable but deal crazy damage to almost all types. Just no STAB is the problem so maybe Secret Power instead of Brick Break? He's slow but going second doesn't really matter as he isn't going to die if you have any brain cells at all so the only problem would be sleep and confusion-inducing abilities. He's also good for surf/strength if that's what the party needs.

Edited July 26, 2012 by kirsche

[frat_tastic]

I don't think it's going to be a problem to get Pidgeotto up to Pidgeot...especially when its coming at the same time as our starter, so yeah while it spends a good chunk of time as Pidgeotto it still spends another good chunk as Pidgeot.

I think maybe the two could stand to move closer in the tier list, but that's more from Farfetch'd moving up than Pidgey moving down.

Also with Spearow/Pidgey. Is there really a two tier gap worth of performance there?

EDIT: Ima do a playthrough using the three birds.

Edited July 26, 2012 by frat_tastic

[Titamon]

Also with Spearow/Pidgey. Is there really a two tier gap worth of performance there?

No, I think their about the same tier tbh

[Espinosa]

Spearow is definitely the best normal/flying in this game. Compared to Pidgey, earlier STAB, earlier evolution and higher offensive parameters matter a lot. Farfetch'd isn't Pidgeotto without evolution. It has things like high crit rate (Slash + Stick in a game where good held items are nearly entirely absent), quick growth and Swords Dance, which makes it quite distinct from both Spearow and Pidgey (there's more of a similarity between these two).

Also, testing the birds by using all in one run won't help you much, since they share the same resources (namely Secret Power for 105 BP after STAB and Aerial Ace). Use the worst one and use logic to think in which situation having more attack power/speed/whatever would've saved you some trouble (like Pidgeotto failing to OHKO a Machop and falling victim to a Karate Chop crit).

[frat_tastic]

Spearow is definitely better than Pidgey, I just don't know if it's two whole tiers better.

I feel like farfetch'd might be fine, maybe even a little better than Pidgeotto, up until Pidgeotto evolves into Pidgeot. At that point I don't really see it being better. But I can't be entirely sure, I don't think I've ever actually used faretch'd seriously before.

EDIT: Secret Power is buyable and Pidgeotto at least has Wing Attack to mitigate the loss of Aerial Ace, but I see your point.

Edited July 26, 2012 by frat_tastic

[Espinosa]

Well, Farfetch'd holding his Stick and using Slash has a crit ratio of 50% in generation 3, the highest you can get. That turns every other 2HKO into an OHKO. Definitely notable.

Anyway, you get Secret Power before Misty and it's really good at that point (allows Clefable to easily beat Starmie). You can get more, but you have just one for a while. And I'd say Wing Attack is actually an advantage over Aerial Ace - that move just never runs out of PP. Fearow gets Drill Peck the earliest, though, which is good for tougher enemies and Bruno.

[dondon151]

The extra 30 seconds or w/e needed to take down generics is irrelevant unless you're doing a speedrun (in which case, training anything other than Squirtle/Nido/Jynx from Vermillion onwards is a waste of exp, and blitzing Brock and Misty is more of a timesaver than roasting bugs) and Charmander's ability to amplify an advantage is less valuable Bulbasaur's ability to reverse a disadvantage.

1. it's an extra 30 seconds per trainer

2. we are talking about high tier pokemon here, so we do need to care about things that separate the men from the boys. men don't struggle with killing stupid bugs.

Edit: If Farfecth'd is basically Pidgeotto without another evolution then surely the two are comparable as the majority of the game will be completed with Pidgey as a Pidgeotto

If you're doing a playthrough with a party of 4 Pokemon, you can probably get Pidgeot before your 5th badge, whomever that may be.

I maintain that Jynx is not better than Staryu, Staryu is very easy to train anyway, has a bigger movepool, is faster to compensate for the slightly worse nuking power and has recover and arguably better durability (5 HP and 10 Sp.D (Jynx) vs 50 Def (Starmie)).

Recover is not an important consideration in-game where Hyper Potions are strictly better. Starmie's larger movepool is not a huge advantage in-game where you'd be hard-pressed to buy more than 1 TM from the game corner over the course of the entire game, so you'd basically have to pick between Thunderbolt and Ice Beam. Jynx gets Ice Punch on level up and Psychic from the guy in Saffron City, which covers most opponents (except Slowbro, Starmie, and Magneton). Against tougher opponents, Jynx has the option to Lovely Kiss + Calm Mind into a sweep.

The real kicker here is that Starmie is in the slow EXP group while Jynx is in the medium fast EXP group and gets the trade EXP bonus. The amount of EXP required to get Starmie from L25 to L35 will also get trade Jynx from L25 to L40.

Snorlax is crazy good with his defences and offence. Ice beam/Brick Break/Earthquake/Rest makes him unkillable but deal crazy damage to almost all types. Just no STAB is the problem so maybe Secret Power instead of Brick Break? He's slow but going second doesn't really matter as he isn't going to die if you have any brain cells at all so the only problem would be sleep and confusion-inducing abilities. He's also good for surf/strength if that's what the party needs.

Yes, but Snorlax is slow as balls, so that is a strong point against him.

Also, testing the birds by using all in one run won't help you much, since they share the same resources (namely Secret Power for 105 BP after STAB and Aerial Ace). Use the worst one and use logic to think in which situation having more attack power/speed/whatever would've saved you some trouble (like Pidgeotto failing to OHKO a Machop and falling victim to a Karate Chop crit).

Pidgeot gets Wing Attack, Farfetch'd gets Aerial Ace, and Fearow/Dodrio get Drill Peck...

[Zkirsche]

If you're doing a playthrough with a party of 4 Pokemon, you can probably get Pidgeot before your 5th badge, whomever that may be.

How many trainers are we fighting here? Hitting level 36 before the 5th gym means that our pokemon are actually levels ahead of the gym leaders, which is unnecessary when we could probably defeat them with a team 3-4 levels below. I can probably see Pidgeot by Blaine or just before Sabrina, but not before that.

Recover is not an important consideration in-game where Hyper Potions are strictly better.

Good point.

In fact, thinking about it I guess I didn't rate Jynx enough or look for exp stuff, so I'll concede Starmie < Jynx.

Yes, but Snorlax is slow as balls, so that is a strong point against him.

Depends what we consider a turn in combat, both pokemon attacking or just each attack on its own? For the latter, its like 2 seconds extra per pokemon when you ignore status. At the end of the day we'd probably waste more potions on Mr Mime anyway as if he doesn't OHKO he'll be hit hard.

Edited July 26, 2012 by kirsche

[dondon151]

How many trainers are we fighting here? Hitting level 36 before the 5th gym means that our pokemon are actually levels ahead of the gym leaders, which is unnecessary when we could probably defeat them with a team 3-4 levels below. I can probably see Pidgeot by Blaine or just before Sabrina, but not before that.

Most of them? I'm going to guess that not all of your Pokemon come between L5-10. I was playing through with a team of 3 not too long ago and had L41, L41, and L30 before Koga and skipping a bunch of trainers (also decided to skip Erika because I wanted that Kangaskhan), so 4 Pokemon between L30 and L36 doesn't seem that far off to me.

Depends what we consider a turn in combat, both pokemon attacking or just each attack on its own? For the latter, its like 2 seconds extra per pokemon when you ignore status. At the end of the day we'd probably waste more potions on Mr Mime anyway as if he doesn't OHKO he'll be hit hard.

The only Pokemon that Mr. Mime won't OHKO are Pokemon that he shouldn't be fighting against or Pokemon that belong to boss trainers. Snorlax, meanwhile, is outsped by like, everything.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't think anybody would intentionally skip those bug catchers at the start of the game, as it's such an easy opportunity to get good early experience. I believe the argument against Bulbasaur is that it a lot more turns for it to defeat the bugs, especially the evolved ones that use Harden, while Charmander consistently OHKOs everything with Ember (and might get to Metal Claw before Bulbasaur would get to Vine Whip, but the former is still not enough for Brock).

Parameters of the tier list seem to be the issue here. Charmander can beat bug catchers faster, but almost all of the bug catchers aren't mandatory for game completion. Bulbasaur doesn't need to beat all those trainers in order to beat Brock.

[dondon151]

Parameters of the tier list seem to be the issue here. Charmander can beat bug catchers faster, but almost all of the bug catchers aren't mandatory for game completion. Bulbasaur doesn't need to beat all those trainers in order to beat Brock.

There are many trainers that aren't mandatory for game completion, but if you want to adhere by the bare minimum, then even a Blastoise solo is up to luck.

[Baldrick]

Please stop

It's not in my nature to show mercy.

1. it's an extra 30 seconds per trainer

2. we are talking about high tier pokemon here, so we do need to care about things that separate the men from the boys. men don't struggle with killing stupid bugs.

1. No shit, Sherlock. You have to fight about 10 battles to reach Vine Whip. That translates to... 5 minutes lost. My point about irrelevancy still stands.

2. Men don't struggle with killing stupid rocks, either. EDIT: Should they even be high tier? I don't think so. They're basically Jeigans (whereas Squirt is an Oifaye). The E4 is the most critical part of the game, and neither of them excel at that.

Parameters of the tier list seem to be the issue here.

There are many trainers that aren't mandatory for game completion, but if you want to adhere by the bare minimum, then even a Blastoise solo is up to luck.

IMO, the most efficient training schedule is; fight the minimum number of battles you need to be strong enough to minimize the luck factor, and where possible, fight only battles that you can win easily. If you have a grass-type, do your grinding on rock, ground and water, not on bugs.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Baldrick

[Titamon]

2. Men don't struggle with killing stupid rocks, either. EDIT: Should they even be high tier? I don't think so. They're basically Jeigans (whereas Squirt is an Oifaye). The E4 is the most critical part of the game, and neither of them excel at that.

But Bulbasuar has problems killing tiny birds, bunnies, bats, piles of goo, and snakes. And we see more of those in the game than we do rocks.

You do realize that Virdian Forest isn't the only place that Bulbasuar has coverage problems? Grass/Normal coverage is garbage throughout the entire game.

[dondon151]

But Bulbasuar has problems killing tiny birds, bunnies, bats, piles of goo, and snakes. And we see more of those in the game than we do rocks.

^^^ What he said. Poison types, especially, are everywhere and Bulbasaur doesn't do very well against them. Back in RBY he had Body Slam; now he just has Secret Power, and Ekans/Arbok got Intimidate, to make matters worse.

[Espinosa]

Grass/Normal hits everything besides ghosts and Magnemites at least neutrally so it's not that bad. You don't really have to fight everything with it - just avoid the worse match-ups - the main problem with Venusaur is that it has to rely on Secret Power/Razor Leaf for a large portion of the game (unless you give it Return, Earthquake or Sunny Day/Solarbeam). But a good thing is that Ivysaur learns Razor Leaf pretty early, when Charmeleon sits on Ember for a while.

[Anouleth]

Grass/Normal hits everything besides ghosts and Magnemites at least neutrally so it's not that bad. You don't really have to fight everything with it - just avoid the worse match-ups - the main problem with Venusaur is that it has to rely on Secret Power/Razor Leaf for a large portion of the game (unless you give it Return, Earthquake or Sunny Day/Solarbeam). But a good thing is that Ivysaur learns Razor Leaf pretty early, when Charmeleon sits on Ember for a while.

Wouldn't you give it Giga Drain from Erika?

[Espinosa]

Wouldn't you give it Giga Drain from Erika?

I would, but 5 PP doesn't last you too long.

[grandjackal]

While I would say turns taken over actual time, I dunno how saying "Well it takes 5 minutes longer so it's not that big a deal" would make any sense when that 5 minutes didn't need to happen.

Anyways, any particular reason Rattata is above Spearow?

[MacLovin]

Ratata has hyper/super fang and dig for early moves, and Shadow Ball/AA for later moves.

It's like the Zigzagoon of Kanto, pretty decent.

Spearow could move up....

FInish those pokemon 3rd gen playthroughs!

[dondon151]

Grass/Normal hits everything besides ghosts and Magnemites at least neutrally so it's not that bad.

But it is pretty bad because Venusaur's atk is not that high and some of its opponents that it requires Normal coverage for have high-ish physical defenses (Koffing and Ekans especially).