FRLG tier list

[Venusaur]

Electabuzz's natural access to Thunderbolt is actually pretty important, as its bases are good right off the bat and Thunderpunch is better than what the other electrics, besides Pikachu, get. Electrode, Magnemite, Jolteon and even Zapdos all require a Thunderbolt TM to function well, and in this generation Surge gives you a Shock Wave TM instead, so you have to waste quite a lot of money buying coins in the casino to get a TM, and the same amount of money could be used for, say, Ice Beam or Shadow Ball, so catching Electabuzz is actually a very efficient choice.

The only problem that I have with this is that Magneton's natural Spark (120 SA with a 97.5 BP move) is just as good as that natural Electabuzz Thunderpunch (95 SA with a 112.5 BP move), and it's quite unlikely that we're hitting Lv. 47 at all, and even if we do it's probably not for very long, maybe hitting it for Lance and Blue at best. Granted, it's still a nice advantage, but not that large, as it isn't around for very long.

Also, I think the fossils should move above Porygon, at least they exist without wasting tons of money.

[dondon151]

Why is NidoF below the other two starters? It's pretty much on par with NidoM, what does one KO the other cannot?

Probably quite a bit, actually. The NidoranM line has a somewhat significant base Atk lead on the NidoranF line (10 at all evolutionary stages) and Nidoking also has a 10 base SpA lead on Nidoqueen. Horn Attack runs off Nidorino's higher Atk stat compared to Bite, which runs off Nidorina's much lower SpA stat. Thrash is also a touch more powerful than Body Slam, and Megahorn is arguable more useful than Superpower because it doesn't force you to switch out afterwards.

But mainly, the 10 base difference in Atk and SpA does matter. Neither of the Pokemon are particularly powerhouses in the offensive stats and rely on type coverage to hit a lot of things.

[Espinosa]

Lv. 47 is very realistic for the E4 in this game actually. If you're training a team of 3 or 4, or even less, you should make it to that level before Lorelei without any grinding. Also, while Magneton has the superior typing, Electabuzz is fast and covers a lot of types with Thunderpunch, Psychic (he might as well get it early if you're not training any of the Psychics) and Brick Break.

And while King is definitely better than Queen, I don't see why there'd be two spots in between. Especially seeing how Venusaur and Charizard still has insufficient coverage (namely Venusaur) and endgame performance and approximately the same base stats as Nidoqueen.

[Titamon]

Looking at this list in Retrospect (and drawing from my experiences from my recent LG PT) can someone tell me why Bulbasaur > Charmander?

And please don't say Brock and Misty.

[frat_tastic]

Brock and Misty.

(also I guess resistance to Surge, beats Giovanni/Lorelei? I think Charmander really struggles a lot in the early game.)

[Titamon]

Brock and Misty.

(also I guess resistance to Surge, beats Giovanni/Lorelei? I think Charmander really struggles a lot in the early game.)

Bulbasaur is the one who struggles early game, not Charmander. Charmander actually has the best earlygame STAB roasting all the bugs in Viridian Forest and Route 3. Bulbasaur has to wait till Lv. 10 to get vine whip! And even then it sucks, because Caterpie and Metapod resist it and Weedle and Kakuna laugh at it all day. And don't even get me started on its pp issues.

Bulbasaur is NOT good earlygame, it good against 2 gym leaders.

[Espinosa]

I think last time we discussed this, we concluded it shouldn't take much, if any, effort to get Bulbasaur to lv. 10. RBY Bulbasaur, on the other hand, waits until lv. 13 to learn the move, which is a bit more problematic. I think I accidentally thought of his gen 1 learnset (since that is the generation I've played far more than the remakes) when I expressed the same argument as yours.

And using that same logic, you could say that all those bugs laugh at Squirtle's Bubble and Tackle too.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Espinosa

[BBM]

Hahaha are we really giving a shit about whether they're killing the Caterpies and Weedles in one hit as opposed to two? And for the Metapods/Kakunas, Bulbasaur might take quite a bit longer to kill them than Charmander, but it doesn't really matter because they can't do any damage anyway. Charmander might be better than Bulbasaur in Viridian Forest, buy Bulbasaur is better for Brock (and then Misty), where it actually matters.

[Ether]

On the plus side, Bulbasaur can't be poisoned, which is quite a boon in Viridian, at least as far as I'm concerned. And it makes up for taking some hits with Leech seed, so it doesn't need to waste potions.

[dondon151]

Hahaha are we really giving a shit about whether they're killing the Caterpies and Weedles in one hit as opposed to two?

Uh, yes, because Bulbasaur requires more than 2 Tackles to gum away enemy Caterpie and Weedle.

[MacLovin]

Here we go again..........

The gyms battles are a big plus for Squirtle and Bulbasaur-also Venusaur turns up at lvl 32 as opposed to lvl 36 for Charizard/Blastoise.

Charmander wins Erika.....if it's at high enough of a level to get FThrower.

Bulba wins Brock, Misty, can learn dig for surge, resists Erika and Koga, and does well vs Giovanni.

Charmander can deal with Brock if it's been grinded to lvl 15, shit vs Misty, can dig vs Surge, good vs Erika, Sabrina, and Koga, resists Blaine and is mediocre vs Giovanni.

In the e4, Venusaur doesn't do much, but neither can Charizard(Loreleis Water, Brunos Rock, and randon Electric moves from Agatha and Lance)

Charizard can go DClaw on Lance though, so that may be a plus.

[Titamon]

Hahaha are we really giving a shit about whether they're killing the Caterpies and Weedles in one hit as opposed to two? And for the Metapods/Kakunas, Bulbasaur might take quite a bit longer to kill them than Charmander, but it doesn't really matter because they can't do any damage anyway. Charmander might be better than Bulbasaur in Viridian Forest, buy Bulbasaur is better for Brock (and then Misty), where it actually matters.

Dude you are underestimating just how much more effort he has to put into killing things versus the other two. Even a lvl. 10 Bulbasaur 3HKOs Caterpies and Weedles. Wanna know what he does to Metapod and Kakkuna? A 6HKO and that's not even counting harden.

And what about Route 3? Mt. Moon?

He's a whittler. He has to whittle things down to beat everyone and that just kills him in comparison to his starter brethren.

Here we go again..........

The gyms battles are a big plus for Squirtle and Bulbasaur-also Venusaur turns up at lvl 32 as opposed to lvl 36 for Charizard/Blastoise.

Charmander wins Erika.....if it's at high enough of a level to get FThrower.

Bulba wins Brock, Misty, can learn dig for surge, resists Erika and Koga, and does well vs Giovanni.

Charmander can deal with Brock if it's been grinded to lvl 15, shit vs Misty, can dig vs Surge, good vs Erika, Sabrina, and Koga, resists Blaine and is mediocre vs Giovanni.

In the e4, Venusaur doesn't do much, but neither can Charizard (Loreleis Water, Brunos Rock, and randon Electric moves from Agatha and Lance)

Charizard can go DClaw on Lance though, so that may be a plus.

Bulbasaur does not resist poison attacks, he is immune to Poison status

-Eirika's gym has lots of status and Acid

-Koga's gym has more psychic types in it than poison types

-Sabrina and Blaine lol

-Giovanni, finally he's useful!

- You are forgetting Pokemon Tower, Rocket Game Corner and Silph Co.

[Espinosa]

Charmander does burn bugs but you'll need to train something extra for Brock. What's the average level at which Mankey could stand a chance? 8-10? Rock Tomb will lower its speed when up against Geodudes, and it's not outspeeding Onix.

[Titamon]

Charmander does burn bugs but you'll need to train something extra for Brock. What's the average level at which Mankey could stand a chance? 8-10? Rock Tomb will lower its speed when up against Geodudes, and it's not outspeeding Onix.

Charmander does need to grind the most levels for Brock, but because of his element he is the easiest to grind. Also depending on how fast you play, it's possible no one is leaving the Forest above lvl. 9 unless they grind (since all of the trainers but one can be skipped).

Bulbasaur is the hardest to grind, but he only needs to hit lvl 10 for Brock.

Squirtle on the other hand doesn't really need to grind for Brock, even a lvl. 8 Squirtle with bubble can rock the house in Brock's gym.

In regards to Mankey, I'm pretty sure it can handle Brock as soon as it gets Low Kick at lvl. 9, Onix is a pushover anyway.

[Espinosa]

It gets Low Kick at lv. 6 in FR/LG.

I'm not sure if it's worth it to train Charmander to evolve before Brock, maybe it's more efficient to just catch a Mankey and give it a couple of levels. Metal Claws won't be putting a very big dent into Onix anyway, and Rock Tomb does hurt when it's super-effective.

[BBM]

So facing trainers is "grinding"? I wasn't aware of that.

[PuffPuff]

To be honest, I actually think Weedle could drop to bottom, since its movepool sucks pretty badly.

It actually can only learn String Shot and Poison Sting.

By the way, Raichu does not have trouble OHKOing Lorelei's Pokemon unless it's seriously underleveled.

That can generate enough electricity to even knock a Dragonite unconscious. I'm not surprised. It can generate up to 100,000 volts according to the pokedex and the T.V shows data.

You get the Master Ball after chasing Team Rocket out of Silph Co., I think.

Yep.

You actually can obtain this Pokeball before your 6th Gym battle.

EV training ingame

Not even considered, and the HP cushion does make her survive more, but it only does so much.

NOT CONSIDERED DEBATEWISE. YES.

But NO EV training will butcher your Pokemon's potential.

...And we're analyzing electric types' performance on Rock/Grounds WHY?? In case you didn't get the memo, you don't want to leave Geodudes and Gravelers alive for even a turn if you can help it, unless you like them blowing up in your face.

I would say the same for Voltorb/Electrodes.

Indeed.

Which is why I carry a handy dandy SQUIRTLE!

Or a Ghost type. Since Ghosts cannot be affected by Self Destruct/Explosion. =)

Nope, because Beedrill's movepool is garbage.

Doesn't possess any attacks that go above 40 base power that it can learn naturally without technical machines.

Beedrill=Garbage period.

And then Primeape still has less type coverage and arguably inferior durability (5HP vs 25 DEF and 15 SP.D, not really arguably, but meh). So its worse in both offence and defence but because it does sooooo much against misty and surge (which it doesn't) its a tier better?

Yes, and I'm bothered that it can't learn Drain Punch in the 4th-5th gens like Hitmonchan could.

...And there's Abra's problem; it requires switch-grinding to be useful. And I'm not exactly fond of switch-grinding a Pokemon until it evolves...

Ahem. *cough* Hidden Power. *Cough* *Cough*

Ok, anything else you guys want to put up?

Also, shadow ball is a casino TM, along with iron tail.

We can also get Scyther/pinser/dratini early at casino, if we decide to not go for TMs.

If only you could trade Scyther, it'd become one of the first few pokemon in existence to only have 1 weakness period. But since trades aren't debateable, it will be great to have for good Speed.

Slight problem: Sludge Bomb's not until after the E4. Not that it really affects the argument...

Sludge Bomb is available far past the point that Nidoking would already and should know Toxic+Megahorn.

Yeah, they even have the same availability. Magnemite is available earlier in Yellow but not here (it also kinda sucks in generation 1 without that dual steel typing). I think using your Master Ball on Zapdos is a good tradeoff for what it gives you back.

Should be saved to catch Entei/Raikou/Mewtwo. Since they wander the map and are annoying as fuck to catch without it. Plus if they use Roar it's bye bye Poke. Better reset if that happens. =)

Mewtwo-Extremely low catch rate with Ultra Balls. And it can use Recover whenever you try to wittle it down. Of course Sleep can remedy this. But still hard as fuck to catch without the Masterball and having the same thing happen when he wakes up.

Entei/Raikou-Already explained. They are the hardest Pokemon to catch in the game without the Master Ball.

-Koffing: Has access to Flamethrower, Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt, which come off decent attacking stats. In addition, it has 1 weakness and solid defensive stats, it's only issue is availability.

It's actually also weak to Ground type moves. But because of Levitate, only Gravity will make it so you can hit this pokemon with those moves at all. Only too bad that Gravity doesn't exist in this gen.

What's water pulse doing lategame that Ice Punch doesn't ?

Bad Attk.

Ok, but Caterpies one problem is durability. But hell, its a support mon with psychic attacks.

Mid of upper mid.

It still gets good HP to half null that argument. =]

Yeah, Caterpie may have low bases, but it has a quick promotion, good supports as well as some nice mobility.

Dude, this isn't FE.

Mobility in pokemon?

Does not compute.

lol

Brain fart.

Psychic, ice and electric are probably the best types in FR/LG, with Ground losing its position due to all the Levitate Pokemon out there.

Gravity could fix this if only it were available in the 3rd gen.

Cloyster does have good bulk and gets dual STABs, and its speed actually isn't that bad. Once you get a Super Rod, you can fish a Shellder out at lv. 25.

Cloyster sucks. Special defenses are garbage.

Uh, Golduck cannot use TM29. The only way to get Psychic in its moveset is through breeding(Slowpoke family), which cannot be done until you get the rainbow pass(since the breeding center is on Floe Island), which neccessitates not only beating the Elite Four, but also catching or evolving 60 species of Pokemon and visiting the first three Sevii Islands(Knot, Boon, and Kin Islands)during the Bill sidequest.

Uh huh.

Breeding is hardly valid argument for FR/LG. This feature comes a tad too late for it to make a difference.

I don't really wanna say it's above Magnemite. Steel has a bunch of awesome resists, namely Psychic/Dragon/Ghost and immunity to Poison, and Magneton hits harder, though at the cost of speed. Another problem with Magneton is the need for a Thunderbolt TM, which Electabuzz can learn naturally, albeit at a high level, so I dunno. :<

It's only too bad that it can't levitate ground moves even though it looks like it floats in the air. But it really doesn't.

Also, I think the fossils should move above Porygon, at least they exist without wasting tons of money.

Porygon is hardly debatable. It's only any good during trades.

Lv. 47 is very realistic for the E4 in this game actually. If you're training a team of 3 or 4, or even less, you should make it to that level before Lorelei without any grinding.

Or unless you can manage to catch a Chancey in the Safari Park with the Lucky Egg. Which I do all the time. But takes lots of time to do.

Charmander can deal with Brock if it's been grinded to lvl 15

Not likely. Since it is weak to Rock moves and will slow down if Brock uses Rock Tomb on it. That'll backfire using it, because Brock will attack before you can even make a move thereafter.

Charmander does burn bugs but you'll need to train something extra for Brock. What's the average level at which Mankey could stand a chance? 8-10? Rock Tomb will lower its speed when up against Geodudes, and it's not outspeeding Onix.

Exactly.

It can't stand a chance against Brock alone. My point exactly.

I'm not sure if it's worth it to train Charmander to evolve before Brock, maybe it's more efficient to just catch a Mankey and give it a couple of levels. Metal Claws won't be putting a very big dent into Onix anyway, and Rock Tomb does hurt when it's super-effective.

And slowing Charmander down at the same time. =)

[dondon151]

why is squirtle an entire tier above nidoranM =(

i think that far too much weight is given to bulbasaur's gym performances when they only constitute 5 battles in total and the game hands you easy ways to beat the gyms without bulbasaur (mankey vs. brock and bellsprout vs. misty). don't forget that bulbasaur's other huge problem is that his early STAB has only 10 PP and runs out very quickly in dungeons and even between towns.

Edited July 22, 2012 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

Bulbasaur can pick up the early Bullet Seed to solve the PP issue. It does have the worst coverage, learnset and STAB out of the three starters, though.

Inspired by the discussion, started a run with just the three of Charmander, Mankey and Clefable. Just beat Koga thanks to turbo emulating.

It's very efficient to learn Ember very quickly as Charmander, get Mankey up to lv. 7 by switching him out against the bugs, especially Metapods and Caterpies who can't inflict poison on Charmander switching in, and then sweep Brock with Mankey (Low Kick was only 2HKO at my levels and I needed 3 of these to KO the Geodude taking quite a beating back). For Starmie, I had Clefable at lv. 20 with Secret Power which 3HKO'd, paralysing on the 2nd turn. The rest has been easy so far. I considered getting the traded Jynx but decided against it, teaching Clefable Psychic instead. He'll get Calm Mind, while Primeape will get Bulk Up. Charizard will deal with the dragons probably.

[Shadow Mir]

I would say the same for Voltorb/Electrodes.

First off, Voltorbs and Electrodes are FAST. Second, they have pitiful atk.

Ahem. *cough* Hidden Power. *Cough* *Cough*

Hidden Power isn't guaranteed to be a special type, you know.

[dondon151]

Bullet Seed is also really bad, though. It's weaker than Vine Whip on average and does less damage 75% of the time.

[Baldrick]

- You are forgetting Pokemon Tower, Rocket Game Corner and Silph Co.

Wouldn't you carry a ground/psychic type to deal with the poison types?

why is squirtle an entire tier above nidoranM =(

i think that far too much weight is given to bulbasaur's gym performances when they only constitute 5 battles in total and the game hands you easy ways to beat the gyms without bulbasaur (mankey vs. brock and bellsprout vs. misty).

Gym battles and other bosses are about infinitely more important than ordinary battles, though.

[Titamon]

Wouldn't you carry a ground/psychic type to deal with the poison types?

Koffing, Weezing, Zubat, Golbat, Gastly and Haunter

All part poison, all immune to ground.

Psychic is good though

[dondon151]

Gym battles and other bosses are about infinitely more important than ordinary battles, though.

No, they're not. They're finitely more important than ordinary battles, maybe. I'd wager on less than 1 order of magnitude, though. Not nearly "infinitely."

why is shellder in bottom tier and tentacool in low tier

Edited July 23, 2012 by dondon151

[Baldrick]

It was hyperbole, but...

Let's say the extent to which you have to prepare for, and pay attention to, the battle is measurable. By my entirely arbitary calculations, Gym leaders are pretty tough, but you engage them and they often have a clear weakness - 10 points. First rival battle is basically a button-mash, but you might have to chug a Potion if he gets a critical - 5 points, so a gym leader is twice as important. Your average random encounter (OH NOES A LEVEL 4 CATERPIE) and trainer battle (OH NOES A LEVEL 7 CATERPIE) - 0 points. So a gym battle is 10/0 = infinite times more important.