FRLG tier list

[MacLovin]

Mankey+Charmander?

I could say Spearow+Bulbasaur just as well.

Kinda nulls it out.

I'd say Squirtle to the top of the tier list, due to being a water type in a game where Water stab+Ice moves+Availibility is awesome.

And toss in a decent TM movepool and all.

[Titamon]

I'm beginning to think that it may be more efficient to grind Charmander to lvl. 13, than to use Mankey for Brock slaying

Mankey levels like a snail earlygame and has garbage durability

Spearow has that same issue too

[Espinosa]

Metal Claw is kinda weak when attacking Geodude and especially Onix, and you'll be receiving SE Rock Tombs that will slow you down in return. Charmeleon will have better chances though, but it's faster to train a Mankey by picking him up before Viridian Forest and switch-training him on trainers' Caterpies/Matapods/Kakunas.

[BBM]

You cannot beat Brock with only a Charmander unless it is either severely overleveled, Onix chooses to use Wrap instead of Rock Tomb, or Rock Tomb misses. Metal Claw, IIRC, is a 3HKO at best (probably a 4HKO), while Rock Tomb 2HKOs and outdamages Potion. I know this from a draft where Charmander was my only pokemon, and thus something like level 15 when he fought Brock. Even then, I basically had to keep resetting until Onix used Wrap instead of Rock Tomb.

And grinding Charmander to Metal Claw is okay, but heaven forbid we grind Bulbasaur to Vine Whip?

[Espinosa]

I don't think anybody would intentionally skip those bug catchers at the start of the game, as it's such an easy opportunity to get good early experience. I believe the argument against Bulbasaur is that it a lot more turns for it to defeat the bugs, especially the evolved ones that use Harden, while Charmander consistently OHKOs everything with Ember (and might get to Metal Claw before Bulbasaur would get to Vine Whip, but the former is still not enough for Brock).

[dondon151]

It was hyperbole, but...

Let's say the extent to which you have to prepare for, and pay attention to, the battle is measurable. By my entirely arbitary calculations, Gym leaders are pretty tough, but you engage them and they often have a clear weakness - 10 points. First rival battle is basically a button-mash, but you might have to chug a Potion if he gets a critical - 5 points, so a gym leader is twice as important. Your average random encounter (OH NOES A LEVEL 4 CATERPIE) and trainer battle (OH NOES A LEVEL 7 CATERPIE) - 0 points. So a gym battle is 10/0 = infinite times more important.

do you not see a problem with using completely arbitrary values to justify your arguments

a good subset of trainer battles are required in order to progress through the game. those definitely do not have "zero importance." if you want to raise more than 1 pokemon, most trainer battles are required in order to make the game bearable. again, non-zero importance.

good job; you have invalidated yourself without me having done anything.

Mankey+Charmander?

I could say Spearow+Bulbasaur just as well.

Kinda nulls it out.

but using spearow does not improve bulbasaur. you can use mankey for a little bit and then drop him after he kicks brock's testes, and charmander will still be rockin' the rest of the game except for misty. your starter is generally the highest leveled pokemon available, and there's a problem when he can't kick ass at a moment's notice.

i'm also pretty sure that you can get low kick mankey + metal claw charmander before brock without grinding in wild pokemon. it might be close. iirc i got squirtle to L12 before brock solo, but i'm pretty sure i skipped a bug catcher in viridian forest.

don't forget that bulbasaur is pretty mediocre for the rest of the game because his strongest STAB is fucking razor leaf and you don't get sludge bomb until the islands

I'd say Squirtle to the top of the tier list, due to being a water type in a game where Water stab+Ice moves+Availibility is awesome.

And toss in a decent TM movepool and all.

he is already at the top of the tier list (btw nidorans are an awesome complement to blastoise because they neuter both of his weaknesses)

remind me again why shellder and tentacool are very low

Edited July 24, 2012 by dondon151

[frat_tastic]

Is Geodude really good enough to be as high as he is when taking into account he'll never become Golem (since OP specifies no trade-evos)?

Slow as shit and dies to special attacks.

This is really more of an actual question than a suggestion to move him, as I really don't know if Graveler's stats are good enough to carry him. Someone enlighten me please.

[Samias]

Geodude is pretty solid until after the 3rd gym, and then he's dead weight for the 4th gym, gets murdered by the sp.atk heavy Saffron gym, can't hit a good chunk of the Fuschia gym due to levitate, and hopes in the ocean that he is faster than the tentacools and strong enough and lucky enough for magnitude to OHKO if you keep him aboard that long. He should probably be in mid if he can't evolve into Golem. I think Jolteon and Electabuzz should both move up to just below Pikachu, since a good electric type is valuable over those surf routes and for Lorelei. Also wtf, Vaporeon lower than Lapras. Lapras might get dual STAB on surf/ice beam, level-up ice beam and an electric move, but actually being an ice type is really crappy. Same HP, same ability (unless for some reason you really want shell armor over water absorb :|) Lapras also has lower speed and sp.atk than Vaporeon and less availability. Vaporeon also gets bite so it does a really great job in Pokemon Tower clearing gastly and haunter.

Edit: Also why is Tangela anything but bottom tier? It comes late and doesn't do anything any other grass type didn't already do like 6 gyms ago. Grass types are pretty crappy by the time Tangela is even available.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Samias

[Espinosa]

Another advantage Nidorans have is that they're available as trade evolutions in both versions of the game. One way to use them is to get them to L16 ASAP and evolve using the earliest Moon Stone, but you could also wait until after Misty to trade the Nidoran you caught for the other gender, and then get its level up and use your Moon Stone. Nidoqueen/king shreds things to pieces when evolved early, but it might be worth taking away their earlygame utility against the trainers (they're still not the best match against Misty's Starmie) to make them grow faster for the rest of the game.

Geodude definitely doesn't deserve being in High. Slow, poor typing for most of the game, and this generation in Kanto is marked by Levitaters being everywhere and opposition actually running special moves on everything (in the original RBY Geodude could switch into nearly every water-type easily because they often lacked their STABs). Graveler or Golem, doesn't matter when they're essentially the same thing.

Why is being an ice-type really crappy? You're never switching into Stealth Rock in-game. If anything, the STAB you get for ice-type moves secures more KOs for Lapras. It'll still outspeed Onixes (not that those Rock Slide would hurt), but you won't want Lapras to face Bruno, really, though it can take Psychic.

Flareon also deserves being higher, though it does need a big investment (Flamethrower + Shadow Ball) to shine.

[MacLovin]

Tentacool could rise if someone argues it.

Shellder has meh speed and shit Sp Def.

[Titamon]

Seconding the Nidoran line rising especially Nidoran M

Spearow and Pidgey should move closer, I know I argued Pidgey down but I've had a change of heart...

Farfetch'd also strikes me as something that should be higher than what it is.

[MacLovin]

Nidorans are high enough.

Pidgey has mediocre stats and is like a starter when it comes to evolution times.

Farfetch'd is crap, only good point is maybe baton passing SD.

[frat_tastic]

Pidgey's not amazing or anything but should there really be 2 tiers worth of difference between Pidgey and Spearow?

[Espinosa]

Nidorans are high enough.

Pidgey has mediocre stats and is like a starter when it comes to evolution times.

Farfetch'd is crap, only good point is maybe baton passing SD.

Farfetch'd > Pidgey. Farfetch'd has accelerated growth as a trade, and always comes with Adamant nature and Stick which increases its critical hit ratio. Swords Dance once, maybe use Agility too, then sweep with Secret Power, Slash or Return. Also a good HM slave. Awful bases though. It never had Baton Pass by the way, not even by breeding or anything.

Pidgey needs to grind to hit bugs super-effectively (no Gust in Viridian Forest for a while), evolves late and has worse offensive parameters. Maybe a tier lower than Spearow, because Spearow isn't anything spectacular either.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Espinosa

[Titamon]

I think Spearow could go down in general, the rate at which he gains exp earlygame is agonizing

[frat_tastic]

Is using buff moves really that desirable in an in-game scenario though? Yeah farfetch'd will get a level lead on pidgey becasue of boosted exp. growth but it sucks. It's about on par with Pidgeotto, who can at least look forward to another evolution. Buff moves just take extra time and turns IMO, when you could just blast through shit instead of having to set up with swords dance and agility.

Also Squirtle should just top the highest tier, not have his own tier.

Edited July 24, 2012 by frat_tastic

[dondon151]

Shellder has meh speed and shit Sp Def.

70 base spd is not "meh;" it's "pretty good." who cares if its special durability is ass? cloyster's offensive parameters are about the same as blastoise's, and he has dual water/ice STAB that blastoise doesn't have. pair that with any of secret power, facade, return, or double-edge for perfect coverage - cloyster has more atk than blastoise does.

Is using buff moves really that desirable in an in-game scenario though? Yeah farfetch'd will get a level lead on pidgey becasue of boosted exp. growth but it sucks. It's about on par with Pidgeotto, who can at least look forward to another evolution. Buff moves just take extra time and turns IMO, when you could just blast through shit instead of having to set up with swords dance and agility.

but pidgeot doesn't blast through shit. if you can't blast through shit, the second best alternative is to stat up and blast through shit. stat boosting moves for offensive stats are especially potent in-game because you can plow through entire trainers.

Also Squirtle should just top the highest tier, not have his own tier.

disagree; squirtle is really, really good. early mega punch + water pulse make perfect coverage in this generation, and bite also gives him an edge on misty.

i retract my request to have nidoranM raised because i forgot that he isn't available until after pewter city in this generation.

Edited July 25, 2012 by dondon151

[frat_tastic]

True, Pidgeot really isn't "blasting" through anything, but is farfetch'd really better than pidgey?

I guess on Squirtle. I agree that its definitely the best pokemon in the game, I just don't really know if its so much better that it gets a tier of its own, especially when you have the Nidos, who I would see as worse than Squirtle but in the same tier.

[dondon151]

I guess on Squirtle. I agree that its definitely the best pokemon in the game, I just don't really know if its so much better that it gets a tier of its own, especially when you have the Nidos, who I would see as worse than Squirtle but in the same tier.

they start out underpowered, are missing from the first gym, and the availability of awesome TMs in this game is not nearly to the same extent as in gen 1.

[Baldrick]

do you not see a problem with using completely arbitrary values to justify your arguments

a good subset of trainer battles are required in order to progress through the game. those definitely do not have "zero importance." if you want to raise more than 1 pokemon, most trainer battles are required in order to make the game bearable. again, non-zero importance.

good job; you have invalidated yourself without me having done anything.

Let me put it in simpler terms; given a random team, there's a 10% chance you'll white out on Brock. You'll never lose to an ordinary trainer unless you're massively underlevelled, already half-dead, or you screw up, which leads to my original contention; nobody should give a single fuck about how Bulbasaur takes slightly longer to kill bugs. Seriously, if you're going to argue him down, try his poor showing vs the rival, or mediocre showing vs E4 (not that Charmander does any better on the latter count).

don't forget that bulbasaur is pretty mediocre for the rest of the game because his strongest STAB is fucking razor leaf and you don't get sludge bomb until the islands

There are more ways to win a battle than brute force. It's definitely the quickest way, but damage dealers are a dime a dozen, and sometimes the opponent is too powerful, and it simply won't work. That's where fighting dirty with Sleep Powder and Leech Seed might prevail.

[Espinosa]

Secret Power Pidgeot blasts through shit just fine (higher attack than Clefable); he just takes time to become Pidgeot. Might as well get Fearow for earlygame, or Dodrio for the highest bases of the available birds. Fearow should be stronger than Dodrio due to accumulating all those attack EVs though, and it gets Drill Peck 7 levels earlier.

I'd say Charizard is better than Venusaur for the E4 too. He can handle Jynx, Cloyster (so should Venusaur though), all of Bruno's fighters with Wing Attack (though it's afraid of Rock Tomb), can actually hit those ghosts, and has Dragon Claw for Lance (being its only likely user in your party). OHKOs Exeggutor with ease too (while Venusaur does nothing against Gyarados).

[MacLovin]

Charmander and Bulbasaur switch places?

Nido's down below the starters.

Farfetch'd>Pidgey?

[dondon151]

Nido's down below the starters.

no where the hell did you get this from

[dondon151]

nobody should give a single fuck about how Bulbasaur takes slightly longer to kill bugs.

1. it's "a lot longer"

2. yes they should; it is better to kill things fast than it is to kill things slow. if this weren't a consideration, then there would be no point to most of this tier list because x items let pokemon take on basically anything.

EDIT: oops forgot to merge this post with the above one. it's really late here.

Edited July 25, 2012 by dondon151

[Titamon]

Has someone actually used Farfetch'd?