MacLovin Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 They were talked about on sfdrafts chat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 i need an excuse to start visiting that xd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Rose some stuff, dropped some stuff. Also, what about those no-evo mons with good bases. Kanga Tauros Scyther Pinser Hitmonlee Hitmonchan Magmar And add Exeggcute. These mons seem to be a bit low, since they are salvageable. Unlike Paras, etc. But, I'm tired, so I won't elaborate. Don't Pinsir and Scyther have a 1% appearance rate, and in the Safari Zone no less (so it's not even like you can grind while looking for them)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Don't Pinsir and Scyther have a 1% appearance rate, and in the Safari Zone no less (so it's not even like you can grind while looking for them)? I'm assuming rarity doesn't affect rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I'm assuming rarity doesn't affect rating. Even in Scyther's case where you might have to catch multiple until you find one with Technician? Or should we count it against Scyther that even if we do find one, it might have Swarm and therefore be less useful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 guys, gamecorner has scythers strong enough to solo erika + dojo, also golden will ninja me about technician Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 (edited) Even in Scyther's case where you might have to catch multiple until you find one with Technician? Or should we count it against Scyther that even if we do find one, it might have Swarm and therefore be less useful? Technician's a Gen 4 ability, thus it's not available in FRLG. Edited October 28, 2012 by Golden Cucco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 According to this thing, a lv. 6 Mankey is 4HKO'ing lv. 14 Onix and getting 2HKO'd in return. I'd test it in game, but my cart is in use. a L6 squirtle gets raped by a L14 onix too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Why the hell is ANY mon level 6 by the time we fight Brock? Did I miss a memo, or is the player assumed to be dumb enough to immediately catch a full team of mons as soon as possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 If we're assuming efficiency, i.e. minimal grinding, only the starters will be any higher than lv. 6 in time for Brock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 how about no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Magikarp didn't move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 Magikarp moved a little. Also, let's keep it as realistic as possible. Starter+One pre-forest mon can easily be around lvls 7-10 by end of forest. "optimal duos prior to forest" Charmander+Mankey Mankey low kicks Brock to death, and takes care of rocks. BUlba+Spearow Spearow pecks forest, and anything BUlba can't do jack shit to. Squirtle+Mankey/Spearow/Rattata Squirtle fits with anything. On a seperate note, electric types are quite rare. Good electric types with a half-decent movepool are even rarer. (Except Electabuzz/Zapdos, but they come waaayyy late) Voltorb's movepool is shit and can't help much. Jolteon has good stats, but bite+shock wave coverage only gets so far. Pikachu contributes the most early on, and is very stable mid-lategame with natural TB+selection of cheap Celedon Shop TMs. Magnemite has good Sp attack and all, but it's movepool sucks and it's slow and hates lategame gyms. Electabuzz is awesome, but it comes a bit late alongside Maggie. But its movepool is better. Zapdos is godly, but comes sooo late. Charmander wants Mankey as partner. Bulba loves Spearow, because Pidgey needs grinding to get to flying stab. Squirtle works with any of them, provided they don't need alot of grinding Starter is bound to be lvl 7 at forests entry, and in the case of CHar/Squirt, they can exit around lvls 9-10. BUlba has no such luck. En route to mt moon, Pikachu can be paired with Char+Mankey to take care of the flying types and be the misty killer. And it can be with BUlba+Spearow to kill the flyers/rocket zubats that come all over the place. It fits with Squirtle, raping Misty. Speaking of which, Misty is indeed problematic. Let's look at the "misty killers" Oddish- Absorb sucks, it's slow, and only value it has is powder. Mediocre. Bellsprout- Offense oriented. Similar to Bulbasaur minus the bulk. Better than Oddish, but it's still kinda iffy. Pikachu- comes in forest, and trains on Lasses with pidgeys and bug guys with cocoon 'mons and such. Can easily catch up. Bulbasaur- It's the misty-killer if it was chosen, but falls off like a brick lategame. Wartortle- Bite hits misty hard, and it resists water pulse. Hits with megapunch, etc. Best, but Starmie still hurts it. Other options are the moon stone evos. Clefable/Wigglytuff- stab megapunch/kick. Maybe sing? I guess megapunch/kick does it? So, pikachu is easily one of the best "misty killers" to invest into. >It doesn't fall off lategame, with natural TB and decent enough stats to use dig/BB/megapunch or secret power or return. >Evolves as soon as it gets TB. >Has natural synergy with Charmander+Mankey pre-Mt.Moon team. Pikachu is best electric type. Contributing during earlygame, having synergy with the starters, and it also helps clean shop in SS Anne!. (Let's say it's lvl 18-20 by the time it arrives there.) It can easily get 2-4 lvls on SS Anne. >Water Trainers. >Rivals FLyer. And it can take the rock tunnel slowpokes, etc. Helps in the water, and on the east route to Fuschia. It's easily lvl 26 by the time we're done with Rocket Game corner. Thus granting TB. THen we evolve. Also, note, I fucking hate it but it makes everything flow so much better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 If we're assuming efficiency, i.e. minimal grinding, only the starters will be any higher than lv. 6 in time for Brock. i find this an outrageous assertion when you catch mankey at literally almost the same level as your starter pokemon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knife Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 (edited) Isn't Pokemon easy enough without worrying about tiers? Quote me as Waha Kife. Edited October 29, 2012 by Knife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Coming after Koga isn't that late, especially when Zapdos requires 0 investment afterwards and can literally take any gym you want, but will probably want to avoid onix/rhydon/horn. Pikachu is good for killing Misty, yes, but that's it. I'm not bringing Raichu out against Surge/Erika/Giovanni etc. Why would I invest early game exp into a Pikachu and not into mankey/Nidoran/starter when said trio can handle Misty fine together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 you can't account for opportunity cost in this tier list because there's so many pokemon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Coming after Koga isn't that late, especially when Zapdos requires 0 investment afterwards and can literally take any gym you want, but will probably want to avoid onix/rhydon/horn. Pikachu is good for killing Misty, yes, but that's it. I'm not bringing Raichu out against Surge/Erika/Giovanni etc. Why would I invest early game exp into a Pikachu and not into mankey/Nidoran/starter when said trio can handle Misty fine together. With a zero investment, Zapdos's moveset is as follows: T-Wave, Agility, Detect, Drill Peck; Charge coming next at L61, by which point the game will most likely than not be beaten. If you're not cool with the weak Shock Wave (assuming you still have it) or Thunder's accuracy, you'll have to invest into the expensive Thunderbolt TM. I don't understand the reasoning in the second part of your post. You may not bring out Raichu against Giovanni, and it's pretty obvious, but you're not really bringing out Primeape against Sabrina, or Nidoking against Lapras, when Raichu could Mega Kick Alakzam and Thunderbolt Lapras (and it doesn't even want the expensive TM). Ivysaur and Wartortle with Bite have no difficulty with Misty, but Charmeleon, Nidoroyal of choice and Mankey may not be the best trio for the purposes of getting you an easy victory in that particular battle. Charmeleon faces danger of OHKO, Nidoking gets hurt, Mankey doesn't do much damage with Karate Chop. Pikachu could contribute to the victory by paralysing Starmie and using Thundershock once (in most cases). It doesn't take Water Pulses very well, but it's still not the gym where his possible contribution should be entirely disregarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 i find this an outrageous assertion when you catch mankey at literally almost the same level as your starter pokemon You can't be serious. You get your starter at level 5, it will have about 201-3 (depending on the starter) after being the rival starter. Being in the Medium Slow group, it requires 560 to reach level 10, so that's 360 from the point you can catch others. Mankey is in the Medium Fast group, so it has 125 exp at level 5, and needs 1000 exp to level 10. Furthermore, to get the better sources of exp, you will probably have to switch-train, which only increases the amount of grinding you have to do. gg research. With a zero investment, Zapdos's moveset is as follows: T-Wave, Agility, Detect, Drill Peck; Charge coming next at L61, by which point the game will most likely than not be beaten. If you're not cool with the weak Shock Wave (assuming you still have it) or Thunder's accuracy, you'll have to invest into the expensive Thunderbolt TM. I assume he meant 0 exp investment, which is important, since time is exp. We should take into account Pikachu gets TB for free, but if we're penalising Zapdos the $80000 for TB, then we should penalise Pikachu the 80000 exp (assuming lv. 45) it needs to take on Lorelei. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 guys, gamecorner has scythers strong enough to solo erika + dojo, also golden will ninja me about technician Doesn't a gamecorner Scyther cost 110,000 dollars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I assume he meant 0 exp investment, which is important, since time is exp. We should take into account Pikachu gets TB for free, but if we're penalising Zapdos the $80000 for TB, then we should penalise Pikachu the 80000 exp (assuming lv. 45) it needs to take on Lorelei. Why would we penalise somebody for winning battles during 95% of the game? We catch Pikachu and it does us favours, not the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) With a zero investment, Zapdos's moveset is as follows: T-Wave, Agility, Detect, Drill Peck; Charge coming next at L61, by which point the game will most likely than not be beaten. If you're not cool with the weak Shock Wave (assuming you still have it) or Thunder's accuracy, you'll have to invest into the expensive Thunderbolt TM. I meant exp investment mainly, which is far more important and why I mentioned early game exp. Its true that Zapdos wants Tbolt but it literally destroys with it anyway and we can probably just give it rain dance to set up super accurate thunders and destroy pretty much every important battle for the rest of the game (sans giovanni). I don't understand the reasoning in the second part of your post. You may not bring out Raichu against Giovanni, and it's pretty obvious, but you're not really bringing out Primeape against Sabrina, or Nidoking against Lapras, when Raichu could Mega Kick Alakzam and Thunderbolt Lapras (and it doesn't even want the expensive TM). Why do you latch onto Giovanni when the bigger point is with Erika/Surge is clearly the bigger issue. What does Pikachu do with its availability? One stinking gym and then struggles the next two and then it does average at best against Koga and then gets completely outclassed in every field for the rest of the game by Zapdos. Why is that better? Ivysaur and Wartortle with Bite have no difficulty with Misty, but Charmeleon, Nidoroyal of choice and Mankey may not be the best trio for the purposes of getting you an easy victory in that particular battle. Charmeleon faces danger of OHKO, Nidoking gets hurt, Mankey doesn't do much damage with Karate Chop. Pikachu could contribute to the victory by paralysing Starmie and using Thundershock once (in most cases). It doesn't take Water Pulses very well, but it's still not the gym where his possible contribution should be entirely disregarded. Ok so if we pick charmander, Pikachu is very helpful for a gym. Else its just good. Sorry, but how is that more impressive than a legendary who comes in with like 25+ levels over the enemy pokemon and a secondary STAB? you can't account for opportunity cost in this tier list because there's so many pokemon Why does having more pokemon make it impossible to opportunity cost? Besides, I'm only talking about the earlygame, when pokemon might actually be struggling to keep up with gym leaders. Edited October 30, 2012 by kirsche Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Doesn't a gamecorner Scyther cost 110,000 dollars? Something tells me someone is gonna try to hype the Game Corner again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Contributes more overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Contributes more overall. If this is at me, explain, because I fail to see how Pikachu makes any kind of major contribution before Zapdos sans Misty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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