FRLG tier list

[MacLovin]

How about not needing the cash for that TB TM.

All it needs is a thunderstone, which is cheap compared to the TB tm.

Zapdos is great, but faces iffy matchups in the e4.

Vs Lorelei

It gets 2HKO'd by ice moves.

Slowbro/Lapras are bulky.

Vs Bruno

It's good due to stab drill peck, but It probobly doesn't want to face Rock Slide.

Vs Agatha-

Neutral, does solid damage.

Vs Lance

IDK if he runs IB anywhere.

But, it's solid enough to take out at least 2 Mons.

Vs Rival

Eehhh

PIdgeot/Water/Grass mons are down.

Rhydon stops it, maybe Alakazam too. Not sure about fire mon.

Zapdos is overrated.

[Baldrick]

How about not needing the cash for that TB TM.

All it needs is a thunderstone, which is cheap compared to the TB tm.

You're forgetting about the 80000+ exp it needs.

Vs Lorelei

It gets 2HKO'd by ice moves.

Slowbro/Lapras are bulky.

And slow! Admittedly, Zapdos does not want to face multiple ice attacks, but it does have Thunder/TB to nail the water types.

Vs Bruno

It's good due to stab drill peck, but It probobly doesn't want to face Rock Slide.

Only a problem if you're soloing with Zapdos.

Vs Lance

IDK if he runs IB anywhere.

But, it's solid enough to take out at least 2 Mons.

He doesn't.

Vs Rival

Eehhh

PIdgeot/Water/Grass mons are down.

Rhydon stops it, maybe Alakazam too. Not sure about fire mon.

See my previous statement about rock/ground types. Alakazam is made of paper, the only problem would be if Psychic one-shots it. And he could definitely take Charizard, Arcanine possibly.

Zapdos is overrated.

Not really.

[Ema Skye]

You're forgetting about the 80000+ exp it needs.

With this logic, everything sans legendary birds should be penalized for taking away EXP. Squirtle is awesome, but it needs exp to be good so I guess it sucks. The Nidorans need exp AND a moon stone, so they should probably go down a few tiers too. Moltres needs no training so let's put it in top tier now.

On a serious note, using Pikachu saves me the $800,000 Thunderbolt costs me. Not to mention it does more against Misty and Surge than Zapdos does (read as: nothing).

[MacLovin]

Pikachu is a good investment of Exp and helps the team more overall.

And it's cheap to train, just buy a cheap thunderstone and bb/dig.

[Baldrick]

With this logic, everything sans legendary birds should be penalized for taking away EXP. Squirtle is awesome, but it needs exp to be good so I guess it sucks. The Nidorans need exp AND a moon stone, so they should probably go down a few tiers too. Moltres needs no training so let's put it in top tier now.

Experience requirement is not the only factor to consider, true. But when you have two Pokemon with similar purposes and usefulness, experience needed can crucial, especially a large difference like this.

It's all about how you use the resources that are given to you. Squirtle and Nidoran are among the best Pokemon for punching through the earlygame.(frankly I've never understood the Nidoran love. Their start is pretty wonky, they don't excel at any particular matchup, they have good coverage but don't have the stats or typing to take advantage of it later on.)

Moltres is bad because Fire is pretty much useless lategame (It only nails Jynx and rival's grass, the former will go down to a strong physical attack, and the latter is covered by ice).

On a serious note, using Pikachu saves me the $800,000 Thunderbolt costs me. Not to mention it does more against Misty and Surge than Zapdos does (read as: nothing).

It's a lot easier to get $80,000 than it is to get 80000 exp. Even so, if you're really that tight for money, give Zapdos Thunder. Problem solved. The accuracy is still high enough to make usable, it's just less convenient than Thunderbolt.

Pikachu's only meaningful contribution before Zapdos is Misty, and only if you have Charmander. It's not even that great; it doesn't resist Water Pulse.

I'm 99% sure any team that raises Pikachu will not be able to beat my time in the Double Draft.

[grandjackal]

Experience requirement is not the only factor to consider, true. But when you have two Pokemon with similar purposes and usefulness, experience needed can crucial, especially a large difference like this.

Zapdos does not have a similar use at all, because it doesn't show up till the tail end of the game while Pikachu appears nearly at the start. That exp you are complaining about is being put to use in the form of a mon that synergizes with your starter to cover things they can't hit effectively, namely flying types (a problem to bulbasaur namely) and water (Charmander doesn't want, Squirtle can't hit too effectively). You also have no electric types that come sooner than Pikachu who can put the most use to Thunderbolt. In the end, what does Zapdos uniquely supply us as an electric type with other than STAB Drill Peck?

It's all about how you use the resources that are given to you. Squirtle and Nidoran are among the best Pokemon for punching through the earlygame.(frankly I've never understood the Nidoran love. Their start is pretty wonky, they don't excel at any particular matchup, they have good coverage but don't have the stats or typing to take advantage of it later on.)

Moltres is bad because Fire is pretty much useless lategame (It only nails Jynx and rival's grass, the former will go down to a strong physical attack, and the latter is covered by ice).

What do Nidoran and Moltres have to do with any of this? This is between Pikachu and Zapdos. Pikachu brings things to the table that Zapdos simply can't, simple as that, and if you're arguing the likes of Nidoran are overated (and let's face it, only Charmander really care to have Nidoran or Mankey as an early partner), then Pikachu is an excellent earlygame choice. Misty, Rocket love for Zubats and Golbats, Gary's Pidgeotto, and just having STAB Thunderbolt for the longest time. How is this not good in your eyes?

It's a lot easier to get $80,000 than it is to get 80000 exp. Even so, if you're really that tight for money, give Zapdos Thunder. Problem solved. The accuracy is still high enough to make usable, it's just less convenient than Thunderbolt.

1. You're acting like Pikachu puts this exp to terrible use, which he doesn't.

2. There are other simpler ways to cover the things Zapdos covers that Raichu cannot.

3. Thunder is 70 acc. I would hardly call that usable.

Pikachu's only meaningful contribution before Zapdos is Misty, and only if you have Charmander. It's not even that great; it doesn't resist Water Pulse.

You're not even trying to make sense anymore. Why would you catch 2 mons before Brock when your starter is awful against him (as one of them has to be Mankey or Nidoran in Charmander's case). Maybe that's why you don't like Pikachu, you're picking up too many mons early so when you fight Misty, your Pikachu is underleveled for no reason.

I'm 99% sure any team that raises Pikachu will not be able to beat my time in the Double Draft.

Why should we care about a draft?

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Doesn't a gamecorner Scyther cost 110,000 dollars?

It is costly but it does amazing job if you do buy it. Just pointing it out.

You can make that much money with the nugget bridge bug in under hour

Something tells me someone is gonna try to hype the Game Corner again...

Something tells me somebody is still overrating the hardness of slots...

You know the ones where you can reset if you lose money...

@Major Baldo

I would like to say your exp diss is silly

You aint that far from 800.000 exp in the time that takes to get 800.000 dollars

[Shadow Mir]

Something tells me somebody is still overrating the hardness of slots...

You know the ones where you can reset if you lose money...

Whatever the case, it's still anything but efficient.

I could do that with the slots in any other game, so what's your point?

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Its more efficent than Voltorb Flip

Maybe they are all overrated

Seriously thou, do we assume VBA or GBA, that is rather relevant to time efficency of Slots

Edited October 31, 2012 by Sho.M.the.Tits

[Anouleth]

It is costly but it does amazing job if you do buy it. Just pointing it out.

You can make that much money with the nugget bridge bug in under hour

Wow, less than an hour? That's so fast /sarcasm

It's not like Erika is even a particularly hard gym to hit. Just looking at the tier that Scyther is in, you can grab Butterfree, Pidgeot, Vulpix, and Zubat, all of whom won't have any trouble with Erika, and won't cost a fortune (although we might want to buy Vulpix a Flamethrower TM if we evolve it early, it's still significantly cheaper and we can put it off until later when we have more money).

Its more efficent than Voltorb Flip

Maybe they are all overrated

Seriously thou, do we assume VBA or GBA, that is rather relevant to time efficency of Slots

If you have to abuse resets in order for Scyther to be good, then Scyther isn't good. Anything that this tier list assumes should be doable in a similar amount of time on a cartridge.

[dondon151]

i don't understand the point of strikethroughs

are you like trying to be tsundere about saying dumb things or something

like "hey i'm going to say something utterly stupid and outrageous but don't want to get called out for it so i'll strikethrough"

so here's the deal: ask yourself if it is faster to use a pokemon with or without grinding money to buy a game corner TM. chances are it's faster to just ignore it. there's your answer.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

I know its faster not to. I also know Corner TM are able make some pkmn much better than they are without as far as offence goes.

i slash thing to imply they are not to be taken that seriously

[dondon151]

You can't be serious.

You get your starter at level 5, it will have about 201-3 (depending on the starter) after being the rival starter. Being in the Medium Slow group, it requires 560 to reach level 10, so that's 360 from the point you can catch others.

Mankey is in the Medium Fast group, so it has 125 exp at level 5, and needs 1000 exp to level 10. Furthermore, to get the better sources of exp, you will probably have to switch-train, which only increases the amount of grinding you have to do.

gg research.

oh man oh man oh man, beatdown time

how about you do the following

catch a L4 mankey (doesn't even have to be L5!)

defeat the 3 bug catchers on your way through viridian forest (only the last one is mandatory but mankey needs the EXP from the other 2) and defeat the trainer in brock's gym. mankey can solo all of them with some smart potion/antidote use.

mankey should be L9 going into brock, will gain a level upon defeating geodude, and has no problem kicking brock's butt with low kick. L10 mankey should do something like 60-80% HP damage to onix with low kick.

now please tell me how else you are going to defeat brock if you pick charmander as a starter with less grinding. a L12 charmander is not going to get you very far. (i think this is doable with an even lower-leveled mankey; cba to check now though.)

and before you decide to be pedantic and go "but you said -no- grinding!" consider that there is exactly one mandatory battle between your first rival battle and brock. that one battle is not enough to put bulbasaur from L6 to L10 for vine whip. bulbasaur needs to solo at least 1 extra trainer in viridian forest in order to reach L10 before brock. maybe L7-8 squirtle can beat brock with bubble (kind of doubtful).

Edited October 31, 2012 by dondon151

[Zkirsche]

How about not needing the cash for that TB TM.

Give me a better investment of that £80000. Oh wait there is literally none sans Ice beam, but I'm 100% sure we can get both in one playthrough.

All it needs is a thunderstone, which is cheap compared to the TB tm.

It needs a thundestone to do what? Be mediocre against Koga/Sabrina/Blaine?

Zapdos is great, but faces iffy matchups in the e4.

If Zapdos has iffy match ups then Raichu has downright terrible matchups.

Vs Lorelei

It gets 2HKO'd by ice moves.

Slowbro/Lapras are bulky.

Pretty sure Zapdos doesn't get 2HKO'ed.

Vs Bruno

It's good due to stab drill peck, but It probobly doesn't want to face Rock Slide.

Why not when it 2HKOs and goes first?

Vs Agatha-

Neutral, does solid damage.

Destroys Vileplume and Golbat.

Vs Lance

IDK if he runs IB anywhere.

But, it's solid enough to take out at least 2 Mons.

2 and deal significant damage to the others because drill pecking dragonairs works wonders. Raichu wouldn't be able to handle any of them.

Vs Rival

Eehhh

PIdgeot/Water/Grass mons are down.

Rhydon stops it, maybe Alakazam too. Not sure about fire mon.

Wins vs all starters because flying/electric. Wins vs Pidgeot. Wins vs Exeggutor and Gyarados. If we picked Bulbasaur that leaves Alakazam, who has crap defence to be abused by STAB drill peck, and Rhydon who is troublesome for Raichu anyway.

Zapdos is overrated.

Really isn't, considering just how strong it is.

Zapdos does not have a similar use at all, because it doesn't show up till the tail end of the game while Pikachu appears nearly at the start.

This needs to stop. You can get Zapdos before Erika if you really wanted to, that isn't the tail end of the game. Zapdos is not a late-game pokemon. Far from it, so please stop acting/thinking that it is.

Pikachu appears at the start, does well against Misty, then does absolutely nothing for the rest of the game. Why nothing? Because as soon as Zapdos shows up its getting benched because Zapdos literally laughs at the stats Raichu will have and lol@Pikachu doing anything against Surge because it gets resisted and it has no durability so whoever said that he contributes to Surge needs to get a reality check. Surge gets sweeped by our Nidoran of choice.

You also have no electric types that come sooner than Pikachu who can put the most use to Thunderbolt. In the end, what does Zapdos uniquely supply us as an electric type with other than STAB Drill Peck?

Pikachu gets Tbolt at level 26, which is probably Erika/Koga ish. I dunno if I want to rely on a 35 base HP, 30 Def pokemon in the midgame when every major trainer resists it or is neutral.

It comes in 25+ levels above the enemy pokemon with legendary level bases. Also, flying STAB gives it better coverage.

just having STAB Thunderbolt for the longest time. How is this not good in your eyes?

Longest time being like, half an hour before Zapdos gets it.

2. There are other simpler ways to cover the things Zapdos covers that Raichu cannot.

Really? There's a method simpler than just walking up to a pokemon and capturing it and giving it one of Rain dance or TBolt?

I'm pretty sure you're completely underestimating the stat dominance Zapdos has over Raichu throughout the entire game. Otherwise I can't see what you're missing here. Is being good against Misty and Pidgeotto so ridiculously good that it undermines Zapdos' complete dominance over the lategame? I'm going to go ahead and say no.

helps the team more overall.

How, where? Explain. More than one line this time please.

[SgtSmilies]

By the way, about Tbolt, Raichu gets it just after Blaine, if something else wants the TM.

[dondon151]

so many things wrong here. so, so many things.

It needs a thundestone to do what? Be mediocre against Koga/Sabrina/Blaine?

1. most pokemon are mediocre against most enemies

2. hello every trainer between koga, sabrina, and blaine

This needs to stop. You can get Zapdos before Erika if you really wanted to, that isn't the tail end of the game. Zapdos is not a late-game pokemon. Far from it, so please stop acting/thinking that it is.

let me just point out that if you're going to skip erika, wipe out the game corner rocket hideout, finish the pokemon tower, go to fuchsia city, get HM03, defeat koga, and go to the power plant to catch zapdos, then you are not really getting zapdos before erika.

like, you can catch literally any pokemon available during the main game besides moltres and articuno before erika. that doesn't mean that you are actually catching that pokemon before erika.

Pikachu appears at the start, does well against Misty, then does absolutely nothing for the rest of the game. Why nothing? Because as soon as Zapdos shows up its getting benched because Zapdos literally laughs at the stats Raichu will have and lol@Pikachu doing anything against Surge because it gets resisted and it has no durability so whoever said that he contributes to Surge needs to get a reality check. Surge gets sweeped by our Nidoran of choice.

1. in every playthrough with pikachu there is also zapdos?

2. in every playthrough with pikachu there is also nidoran? (pikachu sucks against lt. surge anyway though)

3. there are battles that are not against lt. surge

4. improper use of the word "literally" (makes it hard for me to take anything you say seriously)

Pikachu gets Tbolt at level 26, which is probably Erika/Koga ish. I dunno if I want to rely on a 35 base HP, 30 Def pokemon in the midgame when every major trainer resists it or is neutral.

you must be doing something wrong because i've had L34 charmeleon by erika before, and is being neutral against every major trainer (and most trainers, for that matter) really a bad thing? i don't get it.

It comes in 25+ levels above the enemy pokemon with legendary level bases. Also, flying STAB gives it better coverage.

Longest time being like, half an hour before Zapdos gets it.

How, where? Explain. More than one line this time please.

your argument rests on one fatal assumption: you are getting zapdos before erika. if you are going out of your way to get zapdos before erika, you are 1) not actually getting zapdos before erika and 2) going way out of your way to get a pokemon (yes, i just said that twice for emphasis).

Really? There's a method simpler than just walking up to a pokemon and capturing it and giving it one of Rain dance or TBolt?

uh, yeah, it's called buy ice beam instead of thunderbolt from the game corner and give it to nearly any water type or nidoran and you have perfect combination coverage with raichu against everything but, like, magneton. added advantage of having a win button against lance.

don't have a water pokemon? one of them is a starter, and the rest are fucking everywhere. and nidoran M is like the second best pokemon in the game. jynx requires slight fanagling but is an excellent in-game pokemon with boosted EXP gain to boot. seems like a pretty easy set of options to cover raichu's shortcoming.

Edited November 1, 2012 by dondon151

[Baldrick]

Zapdos does not have a similar use at all, because it doesn't show up till the tail end of the game while Pikachu appears nearly at the start. That exp you are complaining about is being put to use in the form of a mon that synergizes with your starter to cover things they can't hit effectively, namely flying types (a problem to bulbasaur namely) and water (Charmander doesn't want, Squirtle can't hit too effectively). You also have no electric types that come sooner than Pikachu who can put the most use to Thunderbolt. In the end, what does Zapdos uniquely supply us as an electric type with other than STAB Drill Peck?

Pikachu is only a good foil for Charmander. Bulbasaur would prefer Geodude; it takes out flying-types just as well, and can take Charmander and Surge easily as well. Squirtle doesn't fear water, since it has Bite. It fears electric and grass types, which Pikachu can't handle. In fact, the only specialty Pikachu has before Zapdos turns up is Misty, and both Bulbasaur and Squirtle can take her by themself.

What do Nidoran and Moltres have to do with any of this? This is between Pikachu and Zapdos.

I was replying to a strawman of my argument, which said Moltres > Nidoran since it doesn't need exp. I'm not the one who introduced irrelevant arguments.

Pikachu brings things to the table that Zapdos simply can't, simple as that, and if you're arguing the likes of Nidoran are overated (and let's face it, only Charmander really care to have Nidoran or Mankey as an early partner), then Pikachu is an excellent earlygame choice.

Misty, Rocket love for Zubats and Golbats, Gary's Pidgeotto, and just having STAB Thunderbolt for the longest time. How is this not good in your eyes?

Because Bulbasaur and Squirtle handle her fine, Psychic handles them fine (and they aren't that common), Geodude handles him fine (and other stuff; see above) and it's only really necessary for Lorelei.

There simply isn't a niche for Electric early on unless you have Charmander. Don't get me wrong, I think Pikachu's the second most efficient electric type, it's just less efficient than Zapdos.

1. You're acting like Pikachu puts this exp to terrible use, which he doesn't.

2. There are other simpler ways to cover the things Zapdos covers that Raichu cannot.

3. Thunder is 70 acc. I would hardly call that usable.

1. The problem is he takes too much for an efficient playthrough, considering his typing.

2. I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to.

3. It'll hit more than twice as often as it will miss. I'd hardly call that unusable.

If you need to string multiple hits together, save beforehand. It's not meant to be ideal, but it's a way to make Zapdos useful without monetary investment. On the other hand, Pikachu cannot be useful without exp investment.

You're not even trying to make sense anymore. Why would you catch 2 mons before Brock when your starter is awful against him (as one of them has to be Mankey or Nidoran in Charmander's case).

My point was that Pikachu's contribution against Misty is only valuable in you have Charmander, as the other starters can handle her by themselves.

Maybe that's why you don't like Pikachu, you're picking up too many mons early so when you fight Misty, your Pikachu is underleveled for no reason.

No, it's because using Pikachu to beat Misty takes more time than it takes to beat her using Squirtle or Bulbasaur, in my opinion the two most efficient starters.

Why should we care about a draft?

First and foremost, you shouldn't unless your name is Sharpy; I was telling him to play more of the FRLG TLT draft.

However, theorycrafting is far from an exact science in this series, so playthroughs are useful in providing hard evidence. In particular, I believe my team in that draft is the perfect team; no other different combination (except for Squirtle, perhaps) could be more efficient.

@Major Baldo

I would like to say your exp diss is silly

You aint that far from 800.000 exp in the time that takes to get 800.000 dollars

It's not like you have to raise $80,000, you'll collect it while playing the game and training the non-electric types in your team.

alleged beatdown

An interesting strategy, and it shows you’ve understood my point. You’ve come a long way since “Bulbasaur sux it can’t burn bugs in the forest”.

I’ve clocked it at 0.23 to beat Brock, only 8 minutes from my draft clear. The first Weedle can be annoying, and Sandshrew is a real problem. It 3HKO’s Mankey at that level, Low Kick doesn’t do very much damage, both its non-damaging moves prolong the battle, and Mankey comes in weakened from Geodude (who it 3HKO’s). Even though I used all my money on Potions, it still used up most of my supply (it doesn’t help that Potions give Sandshrew a free turn). I shudder to think what would happen if Mankey was at a lower level.

The real problem is it leaves your team at lv. 11 Mankey, lv. 7 Charmander, which isn’t looking too hot for the next section. Charmander will need a lot of training to get up to scratch, Mankey will need a lot of training to take on Squirtle*, and even after that, your team is poorly prepared for Misty. The best option, the grass type near Bill’s house, and they’ll need training as well to compensate for their low level, relatively bad stats and moveset.

*(there’s Pikachu, but the strategy is undermined if you need to trek through Viridian Forest looking for it, and it’ll need even more training than Mankey or the grass type)

Tl;dr version: Your strategy isn’t any more efficient overall because the time you saved before facing Brock will have to be made up later because Charmander is underlevelled.

[dondon151]

An interesting strategy, and it shows you’ve understood my point. You’ve come a long way since “Bulbasaur sux it can’t burn bugs in the forest”.

i'm sorry; what is your point? that a L6 mankey can't defeat brock? a vegetable could have figured that out.

what's more important is whether you've understood my point, and judging by the last 2 paragraphs of your post, you clearly haven't. (btw bulbasaur still sucks because it has trouble beating mook pokemon)

I’ve clocked it at 0.23 to beat Brock, only 8 minutes from my draft clear. The first Weedle can be annoying, and Sandshrew is a real problem. It 3HKO’s Mankey at that level, Low Kick doesn’t do very much damage, both its non-damaging moves prolong the battle, and Mankey comes in weakened from Geodude (who it 3HKO’s). Even though I used all my money on Potions, it still used up most of my supply (it doesn’t help that Potions give Sandshrew a free turn). I shudder to think what would happen if Mankey was at a lower level.

if sandshrew is a real problem, you could just switch in charmander and let him faint to restore mankey's accuracy and probably HP.

this is not a rocket science because i did this battle on my first try without batting an eyelash.

The real problem is it leaves your team at lv. 11 Mankey, lv. 7 Charmander, which isn’t looking too hot for the next section. Charmander will need a lot of training to get up to scratch, Mankey will need a lot of training to take on Squirtle*, and even after that, your team is poorly prepared for Misty. The best option, the grass type near Bill’s house, and they’ll need training as well to compensate for their low level, relatively bad stats and moveset.

Tl;dr version: Your strategy isn’t any more efficient overall because the time you saved before facing Brock will have to be made up later because Charmander is underlevelled.

the only conclusion that i am getting from your paragraph is that picking charmander is terrible for earlygame tempo, and no one is denying that it is. are you implying that you are better off skipping mankey and bellsprout and letting charmander take on brock and misty? you're a funny one!

more important here are the implications of your line of thought. you complain incessantly about charmander being underleveled and mankey requiring too much training, and then in the same part of your post you mention this thing called a "team." please tell me what sort of "team," if any, you have in mind if having 2 pokemon at L11 and L7 after brock counts as being "underleveled" yet fighting 2 extra trainer battles before brock counts as grinding.

now i think that you are implying that pokemon that are not the starter drag down the team. this is very true; after all, it has been shown repeatedly that the most efficient way to play the game is to pick squirtle and solo. so what's all this stuff about using pikachu or geodude or nidoran or spearow? somehow we've worked some tier list magic that prevents us from being able to solo the game as squirtle or nidoran M (which I agree with, otherwise there will be no discussion on this subject), so i see very clearly here that you are holding mankey to some sort of double standard: one being that using him for brock is not fine whereas training a pikachu for misty is fine, and the other being that it's okay for some reason to have e.g., a L12 starter and a L6 nidoran M after brock but not a L11 mankey and a L7 charmander.

Edited November 1, 2012 by dondon151

[Baldrick]

i'm sorry; what is your point? that a L6 mankey can't defeat brock? a vegetable could have figured that out.

My point was minimal grinding = good. And partly that nobody cares about Charmander's performance in Viridian Forest (in your strategy Charmander isn't even used there)

what's more important is whether you've understood my point, and judging by the last 2 paragraphs of your post, you clearly haven't. (btw bulbasaur still sucks because it has trouble beating mook pokemon)

And yet your strategy involves using Mankey, who does worse against bugs (and the mook trainer) than Bulbasaur.

:/

if sandshrew is a real problem, you could just switch in charmander and let him faint to restore mankey's accuracy and probably HP.

this is not a rocket science because i did this battle on my first try without batting an eyelash.

That is what I did. It's probably impossible to win without doing that.

the only conclusion that i am getting from your paragraph is that picking charmander is terrible for earlygame tempo, and no one is denying that it is. are you implying that you are better off skipping mankey and bellsprout and letting charmander take on brock and misty? you're a funny one!

That was my point. Charmander requires you to raise those two, which is bad for efficiency.

While not recently, Merry Sioux was denying it before.

more important here are the implications of your line of thought. you complain incessantly about charmander being underleveled and mankey requiring too much training, and then in the same part of your post you mention this thing called a "team." please tell me what sort of "team," if any, you have in mind if having 2 pokemon at L11 and L7 after brock counts as being "underleveled" yet fighting 2 extra trainer battles before brock counts as grinding.

I feel I should point out I don't think one should never grind in efficiency, only that the grinding should be kept to a minimum. 2 extra battles before Brock is not so bad. The team I was comparing it to is lv. 14 Bulbasaur. It is less underlevelled in that it needs less exp to function; catch a Geodude when it's available, and it can live off the required battles plus a few soft targets until you reach Celadon, at which point it's efficient to the relegate them to the bench. The other team, which is already behind, will need to fight the required plus several extra battles to reach that level, and the mon it needs to plug the holes will need more battles to do its job.

now i think that you are implying that pokemon that are not the starter drag down the team. this is very true; after all, it has been shown repeatedly that the most efficient way to play the game is to pick squirtle and solo. so what's all this stuff about using pikachu or geodude or nidoran or spearow? somehow we've worked some tier list magic that prevents us from being able to solo the game as squirtle or nidoran M (which I agree with, otherwise there will be no discussion on this subject)

Squirtle is top of top for a reason. For the mere mortals, we should judge them by the standard the tier lists have always used; assume they're caught/obtained, who contributes best to an efficient playthrough.

A starter should be rated by how self-sufficient it is early, the usefulness and number of its most efficient set of foils, and how long before it becomes redundant, i.e. it is inefficient to continue using it.

so i see very clearly here that you are holding mankey to some sort of double standard: one being that using him for brock is not fine whereas training a pikachu for misty is fine,

1. Did I give that impression? I've been continually whinging about Pikachu being an exp sink.

2. In the latter case, I'm discussing Pikachu, so I have to assume it's being used.

3. I'm not saying Mankey shouldn't be used; he pretty much has to be used, I'm arguing he's less efficient than Bulbasaur.

and the other being that it's okay for some reason to have e.g., a L12 starter and a L6 nidoran M after brock but not a L11 mankey and a L7 charmander.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that team, it's just in much worse shape for Cerulean than a lv. 14 Bulbasaur.

And besides, I think Nidoran M is overrated.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Minor Baldo

[Titamon]

and before you decide to be pedantic and go "but you said -no- grinding!" consider that there is exactly one mandatory battle between your first rival battle and brock. that one battle is not enough to put bulbasaur from L6 to L10 for vine whip. bulbasaur needs to solo at least 1 extra trainer in viridian forest in order to reach L10 before brock. maybe L7-8 squirtle can beat brock with bubble (kind of doubtful).

I just tested this, and yes it can.

I'll see what I can do about getting a video

EDIT:

Bim, Bam, Boom.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Merry Sioux

[grandjackal]

Welp, dondon responded to his part. Might as well be responsible and heft my part.

Pikachu is only a good foil for Charmander. Bulbasaur would prefer Geodude; it takes out flying-types just as well, and can take Charmander and Surge easily as well. Squirtle doesn't fear water, since it has Bite. It fears electric and grass types, which Pikachu can't handle. In fact, the only specialty Pikachu has before Zapdos turns up is Misty, and both Bulbasaur and Squirtle can take her by themself.

Ya know, I think you need to think of what you're implying. Charmander sucks against Brock, yes? Why are you catching Pikachu for Charmander?. He makes a better team mate for Squirtle than anything. Squirtle handles Brock well enough, and though he has Bite for Starmie, the rest of Cerulean gym isn't Starmie. Pikachu still mows through it better than Squirtle (Sans Bite on Starmie I think? I think numbers would have to be run. Also, if you fear Starmie's speed, Pikachu can at least Thunder Wave. Costs a turn, but would make Squirtle/Wartortle's time easier). Bulbasaur also fears birds, since he can't kill them quick. Pikachu answers this problem. In realty, Charmander is the WORST thing to pair up with Pikachu.

I was replying to a strawman of my argument, which said Moltres > Nidoran since it doesn't need exp. I'm not the one who introduced irrelevant arguments.

So why did you respond to it at all as if taking it seriously?

Pikachu brings things to the table that Zapdos simply can't, simple as that, and if you're arguing the likes of Nidoran are overated (and let's face it, only Charmander really care to have Nidoran or Mankey as an early partner), then Pikachu is an excellent earlygame choice.

I only showed through your own argument why your logic is flawed. I'm by no means arguing that Nidoran or Mankey are overrated.

Because Bulbasaur and Squirtle handle her fine, Psychic handles them fine (and they aren't that common), Geodude handles him fine (and other stuff; see above) and it's only really necessary for Lorelei.

Or, I could answer them all with ONE pokemon. Pikachu. See? He's earning that exp already!

1. The problem is he takes too much for an efficient playthrough, considering his typing.

2. I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to.

3. It'll hit more than twice as often as it will miss. I'd hardly call that unusable.

1. How is pure electric typing bad? In fact, he's your only electric type until Rock Cave. Think of all the Pidgeys, Zubats, water types in Cerulean gym, the Butterfree trainer outside of Vermillion. Think of the things that don't resist electric (answer: damn near everything). How in the hell is it's typing the problem?

2. To clarify. There are other birds I can catch before Zapdos. I could also pick a fire type, which has the second benefit of being good against steel Magnemite/tons I might run into, or the occasional Jynx. My point being that by the time you catch Zapdos, Zapdos can be kind of redundant.

3. The fact it can miss at all is a huge problem, especially since this game I believe uses 1 RN for acc. If you've played Fire Emblem 5, you would know how much unfun this is.

If you need to string multiple hits together, save beforehand. It's not meant to be ideal, but it's a way to make Zapdos useful without monetary investment. On the other hand, Pikachu cannot be useful without exp investment.

Well first off if it's not ideal then it's a problem. Secondly, if you're catching Pikachu, it's getting exp. Thridly, Pikachu makes up for it by being your only electric for 3 straight gyms worth of time, and then continuing to exist for time Zapdos cannot exist. Pikachu doesn't have to fight an exp problem, Zapdos has to fight a redundancy problem.

My point was that Pikachu's contribution against Misty is only valuable in you have Charmander, as the other starters can handle her by themselves.

No, it's because using Pikachu to beat Misty takes more time than it takes to beat her using Squirtle or Bulbasaur, in my opinion the two most efficient starters.

Last I checked, Misty wasn't the only trainer in the gym, and Pikachu has a speed advantage over the starters, along with Thunder Wave if necessary to make Squirtle/Bulbasaur/Charmander's life easier against Starmie if Pikachu has to wind up dead for the sake of quickness. Just cause you have Bulbasaur/Squirtle doesn't mean Pikachu doesn't exist. In fact, if he stands out more that is just an even greater point in his stead. Speaking of Squirtle, as stated, not everything in the gym is weak to Bite. How is Squirtle better at beating this gym than Pikachu?

First and foremost, you shouldn't unless your name is Sharpy; I was telling him to play more of the FRLG TLT draft.

However, theorycrafting is far from an exact science in this series, so playthroughs are useful in providing hard evidence. In particular, I believe my team in that draft is the perfect team; no other different combination (except for Squirtle, perhaps) could be more efficient.

So I shouldn't take your comment seriously, except I should because you have the "perfect team"? My, that is quite the ego you have there. You aren't even willing to think you could be wrong?

Edited November 1, 2012 by grandjackal

[Zkirsche]

1. most pokemon are mediocre against most enemies

2. hello every trainer between koga, sabrina, and blaine

Every trainer between Koga, Sabrina and Blaine can be covered by Zapdos so I don't see your point? I guess you mean every trainer in between Surge and Erika etc but most of them are not necessary for game completion so counting them seems a bit pointless. Ok, Pikachu can also kill a weedle before getting poisoned and having to be healed at a PC. Big whoop.

let me just point out that if you're going to skip erika, wipe out the game corner rocket hideout, finish the pokemon tower, go to fuchsia city, get HM03, defeat koga, and go to the power plant to catch zapdos, then you are not really getting zapdos before erika.

like, you can catch literally any pokemon available during the main game besides moltres and articuno before erika. that doesn't mean that you are actually catching that pokemon before erika.

Still, to say it comes at the tail end of the game is exaggerating. Moltres comes at the tail end of the game. Zapdos doesn't really.

1. in every playthrough with pikachu there is also zapdos?

2. in every playthrough with pikachu there is also nidoran? (pikachu sucks against lt. surge anyway though)

3. there are battles that are not against lt. surge

4. improper use of the word "literally" (makes it hard for me to take anything you say seriously)

1. I'm pretty sure that if we catch Pikachu Zapdos doesn't suddenly disappear out of the game.

2. Why would we not catch Nidoran?

3. All are minor sans Erika who Pikachu sucks against anyway.

4. I said Zapdos would literally laugh at Raichu's stats. This does not mean Zapdos will actually laugh, this means that, in effect, Zapdos finds Raichu's stats funny.

you must be doing something wrong because i've had L34 charmeleon by erika before, and is being neutral against every major trainer (and most trainers, for that matter) really a bad thing? i don't get it.

Charmander has the durability to face many, many trainers in a row.

Every Major trainer sans Erika and Surge and all their gym trainers, so Gary and Misty, basically. Rock Tunnel is also not too kind to Pikachu in terms of Hikers. Also, Piakchu would love to be able to OHKO enemies so that she doesn't get hurt.

your argument rests on one fatal assumption: you are getting zapdos before erika. if you are going out of your way to get zapdos before erika, you are 1) not actually getting zapdos before erika and 2) going way out of your way to get a pokemon (yes, i just said that twice for emphasis).

We have to go out of our way to get Pikachu too. 5% encounter rate isn't very high.

uh, yeah, it's called buy ice beam instead of thunderbolt from the game corner and give it to nearly any water type or nidoran and you have perfect combination coverage with raichu against everything but, like, magneton. added advantage of having a win button against lance.

You can get both Ice beam and TBolt in one playthrough, which I've already stated.

don't have a water pokemon? one of them is a starter, and the rest are fucking everywhere. and nidoran M is like the second best pokemon in the game. jynx requires slight fanagling but is an excellent in-game pokemon with boosted EXP gain to boot. seems like a pretty easy set of options to cover raichu's shortcoming.

Zapdos doesn't have nearly as many shortcomings as Raichu though.

Is being 90% good for half the game better than being 100% good for one gym then 40-50% good for the rest?

Edited November 1, 2012 by kirsche

[Baldrick]

Ya know, I think you need to think of what you're implying. Charmander sucks against Brock, yes? Why are you catching Pikachu for Charmander?.

Misty. Charmander, unlike the other two, cannot cover her. Also, Bridge Squirtle.

If you say Mankey and Bellsprout are better foils for Charmander, then you're just proving that Pikachu is even more redundant.

He makes a better team mate for Squirtle than anything. Squirtle handles Brock well enough, and though he has Bite for Starmie, the rest of Cerulean gym isn't Starmie. Pikachu still mows through it better than Squirtle (Sans Bite on Starmie I think? I think numbers would have to be run. Also, if you fear Starmie's speed, Pikachu can at least Thunder Wave. Costs a turn, but would make Squirtle/Wartortle's time easier).

By the time you've trained Pikachu to the level it needs to be, you could have swept Misty's gym with Bite several times over.

Bulbasaur also fears birds, since he can't kill them quick.

Did you miss my point about Geodude coming at a higher level, and being able to deal with birds just as well, and Charmander and Surge also?

In realty, Charmander is the WORST thing to pair up with Pikachu.

It boggles my mind that you think Squirtle needs Pikachu for backup against Misty, but Charmander doesn't.

So why did you respond to it at all as if taking it seriously?

Because I wanted to show that the strawman was poorly constructed.

Or, I could answer them all with ONE pokemon. Pikachu. See? He's earning that exp already!

What about everything that isn't weak to electric?

1. How is pure electric typing bad? In fact, he's your only electric type until Rock Cave. Think of all the Pidgeys, Zubats, water types in Cerulean gym, the Butterfree trainer outside of Vermillion. Think of the things that don't resist electric (answer: damn near everything). How in the hell is it's typing the problem?

It's typing means it competes with Zapdos lategame.

This is the last time I'll say this; Geodude can cover flying types as well, requires less exp, and also nullifies Surge. The water types can be handled by the starter without requiring a lot of wild battles to get to the appropriate level, unless it's Charmander.

2. To clarify. There are other birds I can catch before Zapdos. I could also pick a fire type, which has the second benefit of being good against steel Magnemite/tons I might run into, or the occasional Jynx. My point being that by the time you catch Zapdos, Zapdos can be kind of redundant.

Pikachu doesn't have to fight an exp problem, Zapdos has to fight a redundancy problem.

So? There isn't a single mon in this game that can't be made redundant. Zapdos isn't truly redundant in this case, because the time needed to catch it is less than the time needed to raise Pikachu and your flying type to a comparable level.

3. The fact it can miss at all is a huge problem, especially since this game I believe uses 1 RN for acc. If you've played Fire Emblem 5, you would know how much unfun this is.

In Zapdos' case, it only needs to use Electric attacks four times; against Gary twice, against Lorelei, and against Lance. Gary and Lance have two Pokemon weak to Thunder, so you have a 49% chance of hitting every time. Lorelei has four, so you have a 24% chance of hitting every time. Inconvenient? Yes. Unusable? No.

Well first off if it's not ideal then it's a problem.

There isn't any ideal Pokemon. There is only more efficient and less efficient.

Secondly, if you're catching Pikachu, it's getting exp.

That's exactly my point. The exp will cost time to get. Time is what we're using as a measure of efficiency, right?

Thridly, Pikachu makes up for it by being your only electric for 3 straight gyms worth of time, and then continuing to exist for time Zapdos cannot exist.

Just existing for longer is not inherently a good thing.

Last I checked, Misty wasn't the only trainer in the gym, and Pikachu has a speed advantage over the starters, along with Thunder Wave if necessary to make Squirtle/Bulbasaur/Charmander's life easier against Starmie if Pikachu has to wind up dead for the sake of quickness. Just cause you have Bulbasaur/Squirtle doesn't mean Pikachu doesn't exist. In fact, if he stands out more that is just an even greater point in his stead. Speaking of Squirtle, as stated, not everything in the gym is weak to Bite. How is Squirtle better at beating this gym than Pikachu?

Squirtle can beat it with less time wasted. The extra time taken by using Bite instead of Thundershock is less than the time it takes to train Pikachu. It makes Pikachu redundant

So I shouldn't take your comment seriously, except I should because you have the "perfect team"? My, that is quite the ego you have there. You aren't even willing to think you could be wrong?

The first paragraph I was saying that I was not talking to you, I was talking to Sharpy. You should ignore him because it doesn't concern you, he should take it seriously.

The second paragraph? I didn't proofread, I should have said "theoretical" in there. I didn't mean to insinuate that I am definitely right (I did say "I believe" so you really should have known I'm not completely certain.)

The only speedruns I can find faster than my time are either Squirtle solos, or a Squirtle/Zapdos duet. In fact, I shouldn't have said possibly, Squirtle would definitely improve on my time. So, I am willing to think I'm wrong, because I know I'm wrong.

However, I believe that Squirtle is the only mon that improves the efficiency of my team. You're welcome to do your own playthrough using whoever you like and prove me wrong.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Minor Baldo

[Anouleth]

4. I said Zapdos would literally laugh at Raichu's stats. This does not mean Zapdos will actually laugh, this means that, in effect, Zapdos finds Raichu's stats funny.

I might be underestimating the Legendary Bird of Thunder, but I don't think it has much of a sense of humour. I certainly don't think it would be so mean spirited as to laugh at the stats of another pokemon.

We have to go out of our way to get Pikachu too. 5% encounter rate isn't very high.

Well, I've only just noticed this, but apparently rarity is not counted against pokemon (in the first post).

[SgtSmilies]

I certainly don't think it would be so mean spirited as to laugh at the stats of another pokemon.

I dunno, man. He looks like kind of a jerk.

Also, in the situation, bringing the time it takes to find Pikachu is pretty relevant.