Rate the Unit: Sacred Stones Endgame

[Colonel M]

No enemy stats for Chapter 10 Rangers, but Chapter 13 Rangers have 18-22ATK and sometimes face WTD, so they're ~5HKOing base level Seth.

Quite aside from Seth having one of the best HP/DEF growths in the game.

BUT ANOU TELL ME WHEN YOUR SETH CAPPED HP AND DEF!!!

All jokes aside, yeah, I really don't believe Seth dying to just the Ranger. He would have to have taken a shitload of damage prior, or doing stupid things like wielding an Slim Lance against all the Steel Axe Fighters or something.

[Vicious Sal]

1339250063[/url]' post='2012105']

I train most (excluding prepromotes and Myrrh) of my units in the Tower of Valni. I don't care if it takes me longer to complete the game, I train them all anyway. I actually enjoy it, and defeating the Demon King was AMAZING!!!! :D Ewan caught up with the rest of my units and is really good overall, with most of his stats higher then 20 as a lvl 20 Druid. Saleh is a fail luck wise, so he gets hit a LOT, and dies. Ewan has lost 1 battle, and Saleh has lost 3..............

And Trainee verses other units. Ross is far superior to Donzla, with only his HP lower, and Amelia is better then Gilliam, with only HP and Def lower. Ewan Is better then moulder, with Moulder's HP and Def higher then Ewan's, but Ewan has 2x the magic stat.

And My God, Gerik

60HP, 25 Str, 30 Skill, 26 speed, 19 luck (Not capped), 25 def, 15 res (Not capped).

No stat boosting items used on him whatsoever.

For starters, your. Votes wont even be counted because this rating topic assumes hard mode. This is considered by many the easiest fire emlem ever, if you manage to have people like seth and saleh die, you are far off from being a competent player, no matter how you play the game.

Follow peoples advice by playing hard mode, no towers, skirmishes or ruins etc, and tell us how fantastic a 15 hp 0 def unit is compared to a 30 hp 8 defense unit.

And as people have said, it doesnt matter how your units turn out, your seth can be screwed by gaining 0 stats for every level, and ewan can get only perfect levels, it still is only a one time occurance, check this page out to see the realistic outcomes: http://serenesforest.net/fe8/average/

http://serenesforest.net/fe8/growth.htm and there are the growth rates. Do the math, seth has one of the highest growth totals in the game, AND bases that keep him afloat for like, forever.

[Sunwoo]

I made Ewan into a Druid. He was epic and survived a whole link battle and lost 12 hp. I also hate pre promotes, I rarely use them, including Seth. They steal exp that could be used training lower levelled units. Also Seth, saleh, and most of my pre promotes have actually died several times and Innes was the only one that didn't. On easy mode! Saleh died against a really bad monster unit for crying out loud! I also have about 7 light users, and all but one are better then Saleh.

I rarely use pre-promotes as well, unless I REALLY like their character or I'm doing a draft. But guess what? Even if you don't use pre-promotes ... even if you "hate" them, you have to acknowledge that they're very capable of smashing most if not all of the game on their lonesome. For example, I do not like using FE7 Marcus and I don't use him on normal runs. But he is a big, big help in drafts and even if I don't normally use him I still am able to acknowledge that he destroys at least the first half of the game and helps out a lot. Same with Seth, but to even more of a degree. I've never tried it and I almost never use Seth. But apparently, the guy can solo the entire game CARRYING EIRIKA ON HIS BACK. And he has a very high growth total as well, so he's not going to fall behind in that department. So even if I never use Seth, I acknowledge that he can destroy the game with a princess on his back, and I would rate him as thus.

Your ratings carry way too much of your own opinion and experiences. Which, in a way, everyone's does. But if everyone rated the way we do, we'd have scores like this:

Person 1: Joshua 10/10 because he kills everything for me and I like him. Ephraim 0/10 because I hate his personality, plus he died against Orson in chapter 16.

Person 2: Joshua 4/10 (5-1 bias point) because I hate his personality and he didn't get a single point of strength for me. Ephraim 10/10 because in my Ephraim Hard Mode solo run he killed everything.

Do you see my point? There needs to be some objective grounds for your ratings, which is where averages come in. I've had a really good Amelia and Ross and Ewan once. On the same file as well. This doesn't change the fact that they are just as likely to be REALLY BAD. And neither of those facts change that they have some of the lowest growth totals in FE8 and that they have averages that are not super stellar compared to the pre-promotes or even the other units.

In other words, your ratings are too much, "because I like them", "because they turned out really good for ME" and "because I hate pre-promotes." People are going to argue when your ratings don't have enough objective grounds and when they're mostly based on, "because what they did for ME."

To take an FE7 example ... I always use Rath and he always turns out great for me. I've had a Rath who capped skill and speed naturally, without statboosters (perhaps only Afa's Drops), and another time when I had a Rath with 21 defense despite his 20/20 average being 13 and having a 10% growth. However, objectively, he shows up late and is bow-locked before promotion in a game where enemies are pretty easy. And there is no guarantee that Rath will always turn out great for other people who use him. So therefore, I must use averages and unarguable fact to rate him without being biased. Is this clear?

[Samias]

I also love trainees but concede that their growths are way too susceptible to player luck. They are only consistent in their terrific luck stat but if I weren't on my phone I'd take a picture of a screwed Amelia that requires salvaging via stat boosters.

Link arena is THE worst way to tier a character's in-game strength. All of thwse scores are derived from grind-free gameplay, and from that perspective, the trainees are the biggest liability on the planet. Even a stat capping maniac like L'Arachel, who I love to bits and has all of my bias, is a PITA on the Ghost Ship and is totally unnecessary with Moulder or Natasha fulfilling healing duties via Physic, and they'll be closer to promotion. So even if L'arachel is statistically better in her averages, you have to factor in her base level/stats/weapon ranks compared to the vast number of units who came before her to fill the same role with slightly inferior overall potential. It's the same for any other low tier unit like Ewan or Amelia or Marisa.

Note: I am currently replaying Radiant Dawn, and even though Sothe is a prepromote who "steals" exp, using him turns the game from controller tossing frustration to a manageable experience as he culls enemies. If you hate Seth so much you can still strip his weapons, throw him into the fray, and let weaker units potshot the enemies he attracts, while Seth takes laughable or no damage. When other units no longer need babying, Seth can be reequipped and still perform as a top tier unit. How Seth ever dies unless you refuse to use a heal staff or vulnerary is beyond me. Not using an obviously good prepromote is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Samias

[Sunwoo]

Saleh comes as a low-leveled sage, kind of like Pent. He has good enough bases so that low growths don't hurt him so much. Those bases are at least doable for FE8. He comes in at C staves, so it's going to take a little work to get him to use Warp. But once he does ... man, oh, man that thing will save you so many turns! His combat is okay, too, although I was disappointed to find out that he was a little less durable than I imagined him to be. Don't do what I did and throw him into a horde of enemies and expect him to be unscathed. As long as you don't do that, he provides decent combat.

Maybe this person did what I did after a really long hiatus of not playing FE8 -- namely, throwing Saleh into a horde of enemies and expecting him to dodge everything? When I'm playing FE for the first time (or the first time after a really, really long break), I have a tendency to misremember some stuff (hence thinking that Saleh was more durable than he really was). However, I know that trainees must always be kept out of harm's way when you first get them. That's probably one way you can get Saleh killed more often than Ewan -- overestimating Saleh while keeping Ewan purposely safe.

Of course, this just means that if you HAVE to shield Ewan (and other trainees), then that's a bit more of a liability since you don't want him (them) getting attacked anyway. Just a theory on how Saleh and other pre-promoted units could die more often than trainees.

[MacLovin]

<br />I train most (excluding prepromotes and Myrrh) of my units in the Tower of Valni. I don't care if it takes me longer to complete the game, I train them all anyway. I actually enjoy it, and defeating the Demon King was AMAZING!!!! :D Ewan caught up with the rest of my units and is really good overall, with most of his stats higher then 20 as a lvl 20 Druid. Saleh is a fail luck wise, so he gets hit a LOT, and dies. Ewan has lost 1 battle, and Saleh has lost 3..............<br /><br />And Trainee verses other units. Ross is far superior to Donzla, with only his HP lower, and Amelia is better then Gilliam, with only HP and Def lower. Ewan Is better then moulder, with Moulder's HP and Def higher then Ewan's, but Ewan has 2x the magic stat. <br /><br />And My God, Gerik <br />60HP, 25 Str, 30 Skill, 26 speed, 19 luck (Not capped), 25 def, 15 res (Not capped).<br />No stat boosting items used on him whatsoever.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Gerik doesn't have the con to wield axes.

Also, everone can get 1-2rkoing monsters., its not a big deal.

Except for Dracozombies.

[Samias]

Gerik doesn't have the con to wield axes.

Also, everone can get 1-2rkoing monsters., its not a big deal.

Except for Dracozombies.

Gerik as a hero has 15 con. That's good enough for all the axes except the brave axe (he's off by 1) and devil's axe (by 3, but... eh...)

Unless you meant Ross, who comes out with 10-13 con, which is either too little (as a hero) or barely enough for silver axes and slayer/reaver weapons but takes an AS penalty with a tomahawk or steel axe.

Other than that, yeah, everyone can 1-2RKO all the monsters except Dracozombies. And Moulder doesn't care about his magic at all because slayer exists, so the advantage Ewan has is kind of moot against any bishop. Bishops in CC are broken.

[Rewjeo]

Gerik not having enough CON for axes is a joke from some crappy review from GameFAQS or something like that.

[Samias]

Shows you how much I know about Gamefaqs except that the advice they give for FE is frequently terrible.

[Anouleth]

Shows you how much I know about Gamefaqs except that the advice they give for FE is frequently terrible.

I post on the boards frequently, so there's some good advice, but the character ranking FAQs are usually pretty bad.

[Refa]

Your ratings carry way too much of your own opinion and experiences. Which, in a way, everyone's does. But if everyone rated the way we do, we'd have scores like this:

Person 1: Joshua 10/10 because he kills everything for me and I like him. Ephraim 0/10 because I hate his personality, plus he died against Orson in chapter 16.

Person 2: Joshua 4/10 (5-1 bias point) because I hate his personality and he didn't get a single point of strength for me. Ephraim 10/10 because in my Ephraim Hard Mode solo run he killed everything.

RTU's are just opinion things anyways. If they all have to be objective, why even bother tier lists do that way better.

[bottlegnomes]

I post on the boards frequently, so there's some good advice, but the character ranking FAQs are usually pretty bad.

This. And to be fair, most of those FAQs are several years old. Generally the newest ones were posted about a year after the game they talk about came out. How much have opinions on things FE changed in the past several years? Remember when Zihark was top tier in FE10?

Anyway, on L'archel. I don't know about y'all but I've never had a problem with her. In fact, I ended up dropping Moulder for her on my last PT because he was like level 4 and had all around worse stats, save staff, which was like high D or C to her D. Granted I could have done things like use specialty staves more, though I used them a fair bit, but with Seth curbstomping so much, I legitimately had trouble getting Moulder and Natasha chances to heal and do other stuff.

Then Saleh came along and blew them all the fuck away.

Also, stealing D_R's challenge here.

To people who say the trainees are the best units in the game, do a PT with the following rules:

Only your main lord and Ross, Amelia, and Ewan

No Tower, Ruins, or skirmishes (including getting them to 10/1)

You must deploy every available unit of your main lord, Ross, Amelia, and Ewan on every map

None of your usable characters can die

Optional rules:

Only super trainee promotions

Neither lord can promote

[Refa]

by your rules dancers are garbage (replace trainees with dancer)

so you're not exactly proving anything

Edited June 10, 2012 by Refa

[bottlegnomes]

by your rules dancers are garbage (replace trainees with dancer)

so you're not exactly proving anything

How do you figure? Dancers are support units who should never be valued in a remotely combat role and thus need someone to support. Trainees are nothing but combat units who can only be valued in combat rules, barring Ewan using staves once he finally gets there. If they're so great, they should be able to handle themselves the way Seth does. Plenty of people have done Seth, or Eirika, or Hector, or Marcus, or Eliwood solos with little difficulty and little to no reliance on other characters protecting them.

If you really want to do that, healers are garbage as well because a healer only run would be literally impossible.

Edited June 10, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Refa]

eirika/ephraim + trainees would be easier than eirika/ephraim + dancer

[bottlegnomes]

eirika/ephraim + trainees would be easier than eirika/ephraim + dancer

I'll make you a deal, you do both, I'll do a Eirika/Ephraim + dance run, since I've done the former, and then get back to me on how they compared.

The former sucks because you have to potshot with the trainees to get them some levels so they can ever contribute. The latter would be a lord solo until you get Tethys, which is easier than the former. From then on, it would be a lord solo, just so Tethys can get as much exp as possible to make Chap 19 easier. Then once she hits 20, or whatever respectable level she can manage, it becomes a lord solo cut in half, or so. Well at least for the first turn. Trust me, a lord solo is easier than dealing with those three fucks.

In fact, I'd say using Ewan and Amelia makes it harder. Ross is relatively easy to train comparatively and once he gets to a decent level, things are pretty smooth until Amelia shows up.

And again, Tethys is a support unit. Support units need someone to support. The trainees are typical units. They should be able to function with no support. You're holding them to the same standard when they are in no way similar.

Edited June 10, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[MacLovin]

Gerik as a hero has 15 con. That's good enough for all the axes except the brave axe (he's off by 1) and devil's axe (by 3, but... eh...)

Unless you meant Ross, who comes out with 10-13 con, which is either too little (as a hero) or barely enough for silver axes and slayer/reaver weapons but takes an AS penalty with a tomahawk or steel axe.

Other than that, yeah, everyone can 1-2RKO all the monsters except Dracozombies. And Moulder doesn't care about his magic at all because slayer exists, so the advantage Ewan has is kind of moot against any bishop. Bishops in CC are broken.

You're new to the fanbase, aren't you?

[Thor Odinson]

Be nice. I didn't know of the joke until 2 years into the fanbase since I hardly ever go on Gamefaqs. Don't expect everyone to get that.

[Refa]

also it's not even like a clever reference or anything

more like an in-joke

[MacLovin]

Hmn.

looks like these RTUs will keep being necro'd by newbies

[13th]

Joy of joys, I return after a long hiatus, and find this gem.

Why DID Amelia and Ewan get such low scores? If anyone bothers to train them, they end up better then prepromotes themselves. Also, Ewan as a lvl 20 druid (having promoted to druid at lvl 20) can KO any monster in 1-2 hits, and is my best magic unit. Amelia, 2nd best non mounted unit as she can weild all 3 weapons in weapon tri and has the 2nd best stats (After Gerik).

Gerik deserves his high score though, he was AMAZING!!!! Tethys on the other hand, I NEVER use. She cannot attack, wastes a unit space and can get killed realy easily.

If I were to rate the units, then I would rate them thus:

Eirika: 7/10 (6 + 1 bias for being the main lord)

Seth: 3/10 (4 -1 bias for being prepromote. Also got massacered by a RANGER in chapter 10.)

Franz: 8/10 (7 + 1 for being awesome in presonality)

Gilliam: 5/10 (No bias)

Moulder: 7/10 (8 -1 bias for ending up with 6 magic at lvl 19 sage. Had to unwillingly support him with Clom to help him kill SOMETHING)

Vanessa: 6/10 (no bias)

Garcia: 8/10 (No bias)

Ross: 10/10 (9 + 1 bias for being a trainee.)

Neimi: 7/10 (6 +1 bias for her C support with Amelia)

Colm: 8/10 (No bias)

Lute: 9/10 (no bias)

Artur: 9/10 (no bias)

Natasha: 7/10 (6.5 +.5 bias for looking strangely like my sis )

Joshua: 9/10 (8 + 1 bias for being my awesome assassin)

Ephraim: 9/10 (no bias)

Kyle: 7/10 (no bias)

Forde: 7/10 (6.5+.5 bias because he is an artist)

Tana: 8/10 (no bias)

Amelia: 10/10 (9.5+.5 bias for trainee, and being awesome as a general in general)

Duessel: 4/10 (5-1 bias because he is a prepromote.)

Knoll: 8/10 (no bias)

Cormag: 9/10 (8.5+.5 bias because everything about him is freakin awesome)

L'Archel: 8/10 (7 +1 bias because she makes me laugh in the game)

Dozla: 3/10 (2.5+.5 bias because he's amusing)

Ewan: 10/10 (9.5+.5 for trainee and being awesome)

Marisa: 7/10 (6.5+.5 bias for looking awesome.)

Tethys: 0.5/10 (1-.5 bias (-1 bias for being completly and utterly useless but +.5 bias because of her name))

Gerik: 10/10 (9.5+.5 bias for being God)

Rennac: 1/10 (2-1 bias for being one of my worst units.)

Innes: 3/10 (3.5-.5 bias (-1 bias for being a prepromote but +.5 bias for his A support with Erikia))

Saleh: 3.5/10 (4.5 - 1 bias for being a prepromote)

Myrrh: 9/10 (10 - 1 bias because her dragonstone has only 50 uses)

Syrene: 3/10 (4-1 bias for being a prepromote)

First off, I am adjusting all scores with a +/-2 Bias. This makes Franz and 8 and Myrrh a 9.

Second. You have a major Eirika bias despite the higher score for Ephraim, as both are main lords.

Third, you don't even bias prepromotes the same way. Seth, Duessel, Syrene, Innes, and Saleh for being prepromotes, but not Dozla.

Fourth, trainees take extreme effort and possibly the tower to get to 10/10/1. You get them to 10/20/20. That's considerable effort and basically triples gameplay time. I may be an Ewan fan, but I don't say he is better than everyone else.

Fifth, Personal Experience Means Nothing. Anywhere italicized is a set of PEMN. When you use your personal experience as basis, all credibility is lost.

Good day, madame.

[MacLovin]

Geez.

Wasn't this ripped to shred 13th?

[Integrity]

Hey, welcome back 13th. Missed you.

Third, you don't even bias prepromotes the same way. Seth, Duessel, Syrene, Innes, and Saleh for being prepromotes, but not Dozla.

1: okay we've torn into this guy enough it's time for people to stop posting ~their own special reactions~ to this one post.

2: as I discussed with somebody (idk anymore) Dozla could have gotten a +1.5 for being "amusing" which would offset the prepromote -1 and add a +.5 on top of it.

[Elieson]

Welcome back 13!

[Baldrick]

1: okay we've torn into this guy enough it's time for people to stop posting ~their own special reactions~ to this one post.

No fair! I didn't even get my turn yet. :(

It was going to be super insightful and really make you think about this issue and stuff.