Rate the Unit, Day 8: Dieck

[Renall]

Dieck has amazing bases, and that's really the key, because a lot of FE6 characters don't. We're talking bases comparable to Marcus, but Dieck's only lv5 unpromoted. His growths can be a bit shaky and his SPD and DEF are especially troubling for a unit of his caliber, but he will get plenty of HP and has an existing STR growth, so that's nice. Promotion gives him Hand Axes and we all love those, even in FE6.

His support triangle with Clarine and Rutger is totally amazing and even if he's having trouble contributing later it might be worth fielding him just so Rutger can murder everyone, but you won't be seeing or using that support triangle on anything but casual play because it's slow.

Kinda waffling on this, maybe 7.75/10?

[Raven]

Good thing the game lets you deploy more than 5 units eh? Maybe we should rate with that in mind and not "ohlololollolol not Rutger, Marcus, Miledy, or [insert other 2 characters here" eh?

EDIT: @Refa: Raven seems to be (hopefully he'll correct me if I'm wrong) rating Dieck on an individual basis. Rutger/Fir only come up in his post regarding Dieck's promotion.

You got it right Integ. I couldn't care less about how many units are able to be deployed at any point in the game. It's a given that Dieck will be used for quite some time simply because he's better than many units available, but he will inevitably get benched, and rarely reaches promotion with me unless he has been somewhat blessed, considering his growths.

Dieck is a decent unit in his own right, but I really don't see him as a unit worthy of anything over a 7 in HM. Dieck would score higher with me, but he turns stale too quickly in HM. My score of 5.5 still stands.

[dondon151]

not mounted 6/10

also just incredibly overrated in general and the simple fact is that he's not receiving a promotion until ch12 because of rutger

Edited March 11, 2012 by dondon151

[General Horace]

He's incredibly solid earlygame, but really, he has little use outside of there. His speed growth is something to be desired. He starts to lose his luster midgame, and is merely average lategame.

6.5/10

[BBM]

not mounted 6/10

also just incredibly overrated in general and the simple fact is that he's not receiving a promotion until ch12 because of rutger

As stated, Dieck begins slowing down around midgame. Doesn't it make more sense to give him the Hero Crest earlier to prolong his usefulness? Rutger is going to be wrecking shit lategame even if he has to wait until Chapter 12, or 11 if you take the B route.

[Integrity]

One could ask the opposite question: if Dieck is chronically slowing down around midgame why would you pour extra resources (crest) into him to prolong his usefulness by a few chapters?

[Espinosa]

As stated, Dieck begins slowing down around midgame. Doesn't it make more sense to give him the Hero Crest earlier to prolong his usefulness? Rutger is going to be wrecking shit lategame even if he has to wait until Chapter 12, or 11 if you take the B route.

He could always start wrecking shit earlier.

Reading this topic makes me wonder where we draw the line between good growths, average growths and bad growths. For example, Allen beats Dieck in speed only at 20/0 on average, though you probably want to promote them earlier. While Dieck also has a level lead and better bases, he also doesn't get to places as easily, so he's less suited for low-turning styles with this game's huge maps. And people who take it slowly seem to have a problem with him not capping speed at 20/20, either.

[dondon151]

As stated, Dieck begins slowing down around midgame. Doesn't it make more sense to give him the Hero Crest earlier to prolong his usefulness? Rutger is going to be wrecking shit lategame even if he has to wait until Chapter 12, or 11 if you take the B route.

Rutger is not going to be wrecking midgame bosses without the early promotion. On the other hand, Dieck never wrecks bosses, ever.

[BBM]

One could ask the opposite question: if Dieck is chronically slowing down around midgame why would you pour extra resources (crest) into him to prolong his usefulness by a few chapters?

Because he's still better than all your other Hero Crest users. Other than Rutger, the only ones that come close are Fir and Gonzales, both of whom can wait until Chapter 16 anyways. Besides, Rutger is barely going to be level 10 by the time you get that Chapter 7 Hero Crest (if that), and if he is, there's no harm in letting him gain more levels. I don't normally use that first Hero Crest until around Chapter 9 or 10 no matter whom I promote first in any case.

[Duff Ostrich]

I don't know who was on gamefaqs circa 2007, but back then the whole fe6 board was full of Dieck fanboys, myself included. I distinctly remember that when we did a similar series of character rating threads there, I and just about everyone else gave him a 10.

I'd like to think that I'm considerably more reasonable now, but I'm still very much a fan. He's rock solid from chapter 2 throughout the rest of the game. He's not likely to promote with the first hero crest but he is likely (and I would say guaranteed) to get the second one. All of his supports aside from Thany give avoid and he promotes for +4/+4 hp/def and gets immediate access to four different axes, including the range that he needs so much, and he only loses 1 AS from a steel axe (let's see Echidna do that!). He'll always be held back by 5/6 move, but as foot combat units go he's always one of the best.

8.5

[Integrity]

Because he's still better than all your other Hero Crest users. Other than Rutger, the only ones that come close are Fir and Gonzales, both of whom can wait until Chapter 16 anyways. Besides, Rutger is barely going to be level 10 by the time you get that Chapter 7 Hero Crest (if that), and if he is, there's no harm in letting him gain more levels. I don't normally use that first Hero Crest until around Chapter 9 or 10 no matter whom I promote first in any case.

You're assuming that the only use of Crests is to promote - if you're not getting sufficient return on the thing (I don't consider "a few chapters" sufficient return) you can just vendor it for more nice shit.

I don't know exactly when Dieck slows down or what constitutes "a few chapters", having never given FE6HM a real shot, but I'm trying to play devil's advocate here.

[dondon151]

Besides, Rutger is barely going to be level 10 by the time you get that Chapter 7 Hero Crest (if that), and if he is, there's no harm in letting him gain more levels. I don't normally use that first Hero Crest until around Chapter 9 or 10 no matter whom I promote first in any case.

have fun killing henning

He'll always be held back by 5/6 move, but as foot combat units go he's always one of the best.

Yes, this is true, and the only foot unit that (I think) is better than Dieck is Rutger. But in general, FE6 has a huge cast of bad to mediocre units and a handful of really good ones, and Dieck is at the top of the bunch of mediocre units.

Edited March 11, 2012 by dondon151

[Duff Ostrich]

Money's never such an issue that you're going to want to vendor one of your precious free hero crests. You've got enough whips and bolts (not to mention gems) to buy everything you'd want. Even in ch. 11 before I have the silver card I start stocking up on killer axes. I don't know if that's what an ideal player would do but I am never lacking in funds.

EDIT: @dondon Just because I'm curious, who would you say is ultimately better between Alan/Lance and Dieck?

Edited March 11, 2012 by Duff Ostrich

[BBM]

True enough, some midgame bosses might take a turn more if Rutger waits a couple more chapters for his promotion.

As for killing Henning- IIRC, Rutger can still double him without promotion. If he can't, even one critical should still bring him down to low enough health for other people to finish him off. Worst comes to worst, take one more turn.

[Smiley Jim]

Let's Party.

Ok, Dieck is pretty solid earlygame as his combat is the best out of anyone except Marcus, since Iron blade!Dieck only has 5 less atk than Silver lance!Marcus, and both double roughly the same things(there are a few things Marcus can double that Dieck can't, but I'll need to look that up.) He's one of the few units who can reliably take out Rude and Slayder early on, and is just one of your best earlygame units in general.

However, I have a few issues with the guy. Firstly, his bases only last so long, and I'm mostly referring to his speed. 10 speed is only good in Chapters 2 and 3, and it just stops doubling most things as early as C4. This is a problem because his speed growth is balls(like 30%? BORS of all people has +10% more than him. Granted, Bors has 7 less speed than him at base, but COME ON? A merc that's slower than a tin can?), which means that he's generally not doubling fast things and may even miss average things if he's screwed enough. Second, lack of mount. This isn't a huge issue in ranked play(since the turn count limits are retardedly lenient), but when we're talking LTC, we have a problem. Now, I absolutely abhor that kind of playstyle, but in that kind of play, movement is everything, and you need exceptional combat or be Roy to even CONSIDER being a candidate fro ferrying, and Dieck loses this ability FAST.

Overrated as all hell

7

[Integrity]

Money's never such an issue that you're going to want to vendor one of your precious free hero crests. You've got enough whips and bolts (not to mention gems) to buy everything you'd want. Even in ch. 11 before I have the silver card I start stocking up on killer axes. I don't know if that's what an ideal player would do but I am never lacking in funds.

I see it less as money being an issue per se as that Hero Crest can be exchanged for most of a statbooster of my choice later.

[BBM]

I see it less as money being an issue per se as that Hero Crest can be exchanged for most of a statbooster of my choice later.

So sell off the Chapter 16 Hero Crest and buy Dieck a Speedwing.

[Mekkah]

8/10, I know I often rate more LTC-styled but dondon places the bar too high sometimes imo. Dieck's stats are a great asset to the team when it can't stand on its own two legs yet.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Dieck. That guy with the silly name who kicks ass and take names.

Pros:

Good bases.

Quick to level.

Good con.

Decent growths.

Axe use on promotion.

Cons:

Sword lock at first.

Has some competition for that Hero Crest.

Meh for Res.

FINALLY a decent unit. Out of the lot of early game guys getting tossed at you, only Alan and Lance were worth anything. (and maybe Ellen but situational...) But then we get Dieck. This guy really helps your team. (he helped mine. And how!) This guy doesnt even need to wait too long before promotion. Level 15 is good enough! Youre gonna want this guy promoted pretty soon anyway. He stomps ass. His res kinda hurts though so keep him out of the range of magelies. Overall though, this guy is good. Worth using. He might have some competition with Echidna though.

8/10. 9/10 bias because he really helped my unfinished run.

[tiff]

Would like a horse, but either way he's a total beast earlygame. Later on his mediocre growths will start to catch up to him, but considering the whole picture not very many units can really stack up to his contributions.

Not usually into manly dudes but Dieck's pretty cool so with a +1 I give him a 9/10

[riariadne]

Dieck has offense when you need it for like 2 chapters, and then his terrible speed growth shows up. 30% is not very practical at all, especially when he isn't really good at anything else except strength and HP. I think a fair comparison for Dieck is that he's like like an ultra glorified fighter: can hit and can do damage, and has a lot of HP. But he's only hitting once a lot of the time, and he doesn't have much else. I dunno, I don't exactly see the charm in the guy.

6/10

[Shadow Mir]

6/10. He's good early on, but by the time midgame hits, he's lost much of his luster.

[Baldrick]

Aside from durability and move, his guy is basically a second Marcus. His growths aren't fantastic, but with his bases, he still remains good for a while. The only downside is later on, he competes with Rutger for crests and swords; though there's more than enough to go around, anyway.

9/10.

[Peppy]

He makes a great early game unit but his growths make him lose his touch as time goes by.

I give him a 7.5/10, +1 Bias for his semi-badassery!

[dondon151]

Money's never such an issue that you're going to want to vendor one of your precious free hero crests. You've got enough whips and bolts (not to mention gems) to buy everything you'd want. Even in ch. 11 before I have the silver card I start stocking up on killer axes. I don't know if that's what an ideal player would do but I am never lacking in funds.

Integrity is right; what he didn't mention was that any time you can trade something in for a Boots, you do so.

EDIT: @dondon Just because I'm curious, who would you say is ultimately better between Alan/Lance and Dieck?

Ooh, this is a tough question. They split the first 6 chapters pretty evenly and aren't very good afterwards. I would say Dieck just because he can make chapters 4 and 5 a lot easier.

As for killing Henning- IIRC, Rutger can still double him without promotion. If he can't, even one critical should still bring him down to low enough health for other people to finish him off. Worst comes to worst, take one more turn.

Reaching 17 AS for Henning is not a problem, but doing damage to him is. The guy has 38 HP, 13 +3 def (don't listen to what WoD says; Henning will always have 13 def when starting the map from a chapter save), and Rutger is struggling to do any damage to him at all with a Killing Edge: 11/0 Rutger is doing just 4 HP damage per hit - a 10HKO, with throne healing making it even more difficult. Promotion brings it up to a 7HKO, and the +30 crit in addition to the small hit boost make him so much easier.

8/10, I know I often rate more LTC-styled but dondon places the bar too high sometimes imo. Dieck's stats are a great asset to the team when it can't stand on its own two legs yet.

says the guy who claims that lakche is overrated

Edited March 12, 2012 by dondon151