RNG Abuse

[MacLovin]

MU's growths can be easily calculated; check the My Unit section on this site.

I think the problem is intent - are you willing to play a draft solely for the lowest turn count, or to improvise based off of what you have? If it's the former, then don't draft with people who believe the latter.

My playing style isn't LTC, LRC, or Casual.

More like Casual Efficiency.

And I always try to join a draft with an SF friend that's fun to draft with.

Well, I've always found that joining a draft with people like

-PKL

-Horace

-Doku

-13th

-Soul

-Integ

-Other people I know and get along with.

Because, it's kinda fun either

-One upping other people.

-Getting good teams for a fun draft run.

[Quintessence]

Now RNG Blessing/Screwage = RNG Abuse + 1 turn penalty.

OMG, stop this please

[Othin]

if you really think it's such an issue, start a draft and implement the rule

see how well it works

Now, why would I want to do that?

So if I drafted the dude or if 28x is required, I should take a penalty because my RNG thought that it would be funny to screw me over? Or lose a drafted character? What a great idea! -_-

Yep. After all, shit happens to everyone. If you can't cheat your way out of yours, neither can anyone else, so they'll have their own issues to deal with. You'll just have to play carefully and weigh the odds in your favor to minimize the amount of problems you wind up with.

Of course, Jaffar is a bit of a special case because your actions simply aren't able to directly affect him. And that's what special rules are for. One would have to be quite an idiot to make 28x required for a draft penalizing all resets, with no special exceptions regarding Jaffar or 28 in general.

[PKL]

@Othin - hmm. My excuse is that its been a while since i read that lol and probably remembered wrong. Still, i dont see why resetting is so looked down upon. Not all resetting = RNG abuse, in fact id say its far from it.

[The Spanish Inquisition]

To clarify everything so everybody is on the same page here:

My new idea has two parts:

A. RN abuse is to be penalized by one turn per RN abused.

B. This does not extend to reset (as in resetting the chapter), since reset can be done on any FE, be it cartridge or ROM, with no distinct advantage in either case.

If you're worried about being called out for an amazing amount of luck, JUST RESET, DAMNIT.

Camtech has suggested I try to implement this in a draft. I will create such a draft if there are takers.

Are we clear?

[Sunwoo]

Yep. After all, shit happens to everyone. If you can't cheat your way out of yours, neither can anyone else, so they'll have their own issues to deal with. You'll just have to play carefully and weigh the odds in your favor to minimize the amount of problems you wind up with.

Except -- how is it my fault if my RN is set up so that I physically cannot save Jaffar without RNG abusing? What if I got hit by a 2% enemy crit from a boss that killed my unit? Sometimes, shit happens. But you really shouldn't be penalized for shitty luck.

[PKL]

So, whenever i get a good level up on miccy be it intentional or not, i should reset? Should i reset all of a sudden because micaiah decided to dodge what she shouldnt have? Are you really suggesting this? really? REALLY?...REALLY?

[Anouleth]

Or let Jaffar die.

Shit happens. Play the game, roll with it, and figure out how to work around emerging issues rather than trying to bend the game to your unrealistic script.

Some FE7 drafts require you to visit Chapter 28x, I think.

[The Spanish Inquisition]

So, whenever i get a good level up on miccy be it intentional or not, i should reset? Should i reset all of a sudden because micaiah decided to dodge what she shouldnt have? Are you really suggesting this? really? REALLY?...REALLY?

Only if you're silly enough to believe that you might be called out for something that happens to everybody at some point.

In other words, once is okay. Twice? Maybe. Every time the whole draft? GTFO

Edited April 22, 2012 by The Spanish Inquisition

[Othin]

Except -- how is it my fault if my RN is set up so that I physically cannot save Jaffar without RNG abusing? What if I got hit by a 2% enemy crit from a boss that killed my unit? Sometimes, shit happens. But you really shouldn't be penalized for shitty luck.

As I said, 28 can get special rules. Let's say resetting is free just for 28 whenever FE7 is considered, and I don't know why we would ever play or talk about or even think about FE7 but whatever.

Randomness evens out. Don't place yourself in situations where you could get killed by that 2% crit - or if you do, make sure it's worth the risk of losing a character or taking a penalty.

Some FE7 drafts require you to visit Chapter 28x, I think.

Would be quite foolish to have that combined with a universal penalty for resets with no exceptions regarding Jaffar or 28 in general.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Othin

[CT075]

i personally think it's a stupid idea; i draft for my own fun.

you want bullshit odds? try this one on for size

inb4 othin says "JUST LIVE WITH IT": fuck off that's not relevant

that's 2 proc's of strength. the probability of that is approximately 0%, but it clearly happened.

you'll find similar numbers if you check all the other stats

what i'm saying is that no eyebrows are raised when a terrible event (that has a stupidly low chance of happening) occurs but there's a shitstorm if a great event does

you can tell me BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT all you want this doesn't look very likely to me; for all you know i abused the game to make his stats that bad

[Anouleth]

And you know, this is all ridiculous. Sure, it would be nice if everyone would play the same way so we could have a contest of pure strategery. However, the reality is that different people do NOT play the game the same way. And the supposed solution is to somehow enforce everyone playing the game the same way and kick them out if you think they've deviated from that, and in the case of Othin, if you've assumed beforehand that they are the kind of person who would RNG abuse, just because he pointed out the very serious flaws in such an approach.

Would be quite foolish to have that combined with a universal penalty for resets with no exceptions regarding Jaffar or 28 in general.

Well, then you shouldn't bitch about him resetting, should you?

Edited April 22, 2012 by Anouleth

[Sunwoo]

If you're worried about being called out for an amazing amount of luck, JUST RESET, DAMNIT.

This is ridiculous. So if I'm getting legitimately lucky, then if I don't want to worry about being called out by the others, then I should restart my lucky run? There are times when your team just ends up insanely blessed and with no luck involved.

For example, I had a Rath in a recent draft who had 21 defense, capped skill and speed, and he only had -1 strength from average in exchange. So ... I should've restarted because my Rath was insanely blessed? If almost my entire party got somehow blessed, then I should restart even if I'm legitimately lucky because people may call me out for RNG abusing? LUCK IS ONE OF THE KEY ASPECTS OF FE.

[Quintessence]

I won't restart if I got blessed in some aspect. And if people want to call BS on that then take a deep breathe because I won't be restarting due to some unexpected event happening unintentionally.

[Paperblade]

Well, Cam, for one, Hector's base Luck is higher than 0.

[Darros]

They won't be lucky for 20+ chapters in a row, those are complete bullshit odds.

But are they impossible odds?

Hint: The answer is no.

[PKL]

@ TSI - What if the player truly is that lucky? Should he really give up an awesome level and RESET a whole chapter just because ppl wont agree that it was luck? Im sorry, but this is ridiculous. What if the guy gets 3 lucky runs in a row and needs to reset? What then? If it was me, if just quit the draft and cede my spot to someone because i HATE resetting more than twice, especially when something awesome happened. Like in my HM draft, eddie and miccy both got awesome levels in a 1-4 run, sothe then died and i was mad and didnt play the drafts for at least 2 more days. If i had to reset everytime something awesome happened, id feel the same way i did in that instance.

[The Spanish Inquisition]

i personally think it's a stupid idea; i draft for my own fun.

you want bullshit odds? try this one on for size

inb4 othin says "JUST LIVE WITH IT": fuck off that's not relevant

that's 2 proc's of strength. the probability of that is approximately 0%, but it clearly happened.

you'll find similar numbers if you check all the other stats

what i'm saying is that no eyebrows are raised when a terrible event (that has a stupidly low chance of happening) occurs but there's a shitstorm if a great event does

you can tell me BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT all you want this doesn't look very likely to me; for all you know i abused the game to make his stats that bad

Due to the probability you quoted at me above, you know just as well as I do that pretty much any set of stats by level 20 have a less than 1% chance.

And why would you abuse to shoot yourself in the foot? What possible advantage could you gain by doing so? That is why no eyebrows are raised. Because one assumes that either you got hella screwed, or you're doing it on purpose.

[Othin]

Camtech, has anyone even suggested screening results to try to determine if anyone was RNG abusing if they don't admit to it?

And you know, this is all ridiculous. Sure, it would be nice if everyone would play the same way so we could have a contest of pure strategery. However, the reality is that different people do NOT play the game the same way. And the supposed solution is to somehow enforce everyone playing the game the same way and kick them out if you think they've deviated from that, and in the case of Othin, if you've assumed beforehand that they are the kind of person who would RNG abuse, just because he pointed out the very serious flaws in such an approach.

Well, then you shouldn't bitch about him resetting, should you?

I'm just giving suggestions, here. As for my suggestion of kicking someone out, that was not a matter of mere assumptions. If someone says to you, "Hey, I really like your watch, I would totally steal it if I was sure I could get away with it", and they sound serious in saying that, are you going to let that person into your house and into situations where they might steal things? I think not.

And I shouldn't bitch about who resetting when because of what? Resetting in 28? You're right, I shouldn't complain, and if I made any complaints about it earlier, I withdraw those complaints. Resetting in any other chapter in any game? That's a different matter.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Othin

[Refa]

LUCK IS ONE OF THE KEY ASPECTS OF FE.

I don't know why you're getting so riled up about it. Luck is like the worst stat ever, and plays a minimal role in influencing outcomes.

And why would you abuse to shoot yourself in the foot? What possible advantage could you gain by doing so? That is why no eyebrows are raised. Because one assumes that either you got hella screwed, or you're doing it on purpose.

So we only raise eyebrows when it's to our advantage to do so? Typical.

So usually in FE you go from stupidly cursed to average to stupidly blessed.

Now we go from stupidly cursed to...average.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Refa

[eclipse]

Can we stop screaming at each other, please? Drafting isn't about who can bypass the rules to their best advantage.

[Quintessence]

This kind of rule will make FE and drafts soulless, everybody will do the same/post the same/get the same TCs, that's boring.

RNG is basically the essence of FE.

Stop draining people's quintessence

[The Spanish Inquisition]

@ all that say "I have to reset because I was randomly blessed?"

Look at the odds. Are they reasonable? Jihyun, you yourself said your Rath was slightly Str-screwed. You failed to mention any of your other units, let alone the possible usage of Afa's Drops.

PKL, are you getting awesome levels every single chapter in the same draft? If not, you shouldn't be worried.

Darros, let's make the reasonable assumption that a very good chapter occurs maybe 5% of the time (By my experience it happens far less than this, but I'll run with it for now).

Then getting a very good chapter 20 times in a row has a likelihood of 9.23x10^23. Really? No the odds are not impossible, but it is so implausible that any engineer can tell you it will never happen in your life time.

[eclipse]

One of my FE11 drafts had everyone go from minorly blessed to a Tomas with something like 8 RES as a Dracoknight (he never touched a magical class). It happens.

[Darros]

Darros, let's make the reasonable assumption that a very good chapter occurs maybe 5% of the time (By my experience it happens far less than this, but I'll run with it for now).

Then getting a very good chapter 20 times in a row has a likelihood of 9.23x10^23. Really? No the odds are not impossible, but it is so implausible that any engineer can tell you it will never happen in your life time.

First off, PEMN, however we'll go with 5% because it sounds reasonable enough.

Second, the odds aren't impossible. However, say it does happen. Once. Ever. Because it can. Should the player have to go through the BS of "you were too lucky try again"? Of course not, that's ridiculous!