FE10 RR

[Lord Raven]

I'm curious as to how much discussion we can possibly muster about FE10 RR.

To make things easier, I've made an Excel doc of what the stats would be if hypothetically they were to level and de-level straight from their growths. I rounded fractions down if they were losing stats (so if they were losing 7 levels at 70% growth, they lost only 4 and not 5) and rounded up if they were gaining stats. As you can see, some of them needed both..

Here's the Google Docs link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvA571YfkqEkdHJDR2hNUk9CQnVSRlY1QTdtdnVlWHc#gid=0

EDIT: And obviously someone who is sane will balance it so that Volke/Renning are usable and Sephiran doesnt end the game by existing

Edited May 20, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Baldrick]

Lyre and Kyza in 2-P? That would surely end well.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Baldrick

[CT075]

that's going to turn out well

[Hawk King]

Due to the fact that i think the character availability is retarded in FE10, I think having reverse recruitment would make me hate the game more.

On a less negative note, it would be somewhat interesting. 2-P would have issues though.

To solve the 2-P problem, you could have all the flying units reversed separately from non-fliers.

Also, Lords should stay where they are to avoid the Sephiran issue.

[Agro]

Um... what is reverse recruitment?

[NinjaMonkey]

It's where the PC's are recruited in reverse order. For example, Sephiran is normally the last to be recruited, but in RR he'd be first and totally rapes the game because of it.

[Lord Raven]

that's going to turn out well

EDIT: And obviously someone who is sane will balance it so that Volke/Renning are usable and Sephiran doesnt end the game by existing

also Leonardo is so crutch

[dondon151]

why is renning de-leveled to level 1

[Paperblade]

EDIT: And obviously someone who is sane will balance it so that Volke/Renning are usable and Sephiran doesnt end the game by existing

Don't worry, Nasir and Gareth already do that

Cain helps

Edited May 20, 2012 by Paperblade

[Lord Raven]

why is renning de-leveled to level 1

That was a typo, those are his correct stats after deleveling to Level 9

[BBM]

Well, with Nasir and Gareth, you could make them come with no Laguz Stones/Gems or no Olivi Grasses, so then they'd have to take hits before they could transform. Cain has Formshift though, so...

[bottlegnomes]

It's so great to see Lyre be even worse. Anyway, the DB chapters would no longer be difficult.

[Melonhead]

So is this with them having the stats, or more along the lines of a character:

Sephiran not having good bases (level 1, depremoted)

And Renning being a cavalier, and Nasir and Gareth just being a low level..

and at the end, Michaiah and the rest of the dawn brigade show up very far into third tier.

[Esme]

Ha! DB has a bunch of dragons! That's so cool!

I would totally enjoy their chapters if this was somehow doable.

Wow, I can't believe that Lyre is even worse now. That's so sad. :<

[MacLovin]

haha.

THe Greil KNights and the Crimean Brigade.

And all of a sudden, MAkalov for top tier.

[weso12]

What you could do with Sepherian is have demoted to a Priest and give growth rates of the generic priest (60% HP 25% Str 65% Mag 45% Skl 40% Spd 25% Def 40% Res)

[Vicious Sal]

Okay, I've been looking into this a bit, and the first thing that has to change is Herons, since rafiel & leanne both become playable in 3-11. Hehe... No. Furthermore, I'll repair Sephiran for you tomorrow, and I'll take a look into switching just beorc units with beorcs and laguz with just laguz.

If I can find the time, I'll also try to balance the stats that act according to starting stats, previous unit (bar fiona, lyre and meg etc, since they need an upgrade) and averages.

I'll do my best, because I'm messing about a bit and would like to make a RR for Fe10 playable on dolphin, and then host a draft. =p

[Lord Raven]

A lot of hte fun of RR is the imbalance. I don't see why you are trying to balance things, because the other RRs are really fun when they're unbalanced.

Sephiran is an extreme example that should be balanced (perhaps Micaiah's growths, with some custom Chancellor -> Chancellor -> Chancellor class, whose caps increase with each promotion, and the first two chancellor classes have the same caps as light mage/sage), the rest are more easily balanced with a couple levels or delevels (for example, we assume their current stats are like 15/10/14 not 20/20/14 or w/e)

[Vicious Sal]

A lot of hte fun of RR is the imbalance. I don't see why you are trying to balance things, because the other RRs are really fun when they're unbalanced.

Sephiran is an extreme example that should be balanced (perhaps Micaiah's growths, with some custom Chancellor -> Chancellor -> Chancellor class, whose caps increase with each promotion, and the first two chancellor classes have the same caps as light mage/sage), the rest are more easily balanced with a couple levels or delevels (for example, we assume their current stats are like 15/10/14 not 20/20/14 or w/e)

Still has the problem of two herons, which means every single chapter from 3-11 onwards where you deploy them both is a 1 turn. Regardless of anything.

And with balancing things, I means removing things like sephiran, making renning and such viable, and toning gareth and other units down a bit. Since unbalance is fine, it's not the actual game, it's RR, but when you have a unit that takes 0 damage transformed and still has 13 Def untransformed (also 0 DMG for some enemies) and even punches through enemies just fine, something is wrong. (Gareth).

You don't have to follow my version to the leter either, sephiran I assume you do want help with, but if i'm to actually hack RD to make this happena and then draft it, I want to balance shit a bit more.

[Lord Raven]

So what? FE6 had two dancers.

Making Renning viable is a matter of adjusting his assumed promotions. The fact that you're making the balances more arbitrary (read: laguz) means you're missing the spirit of an RR hack. Adjusting the dragon laguz in that instance is a matter of making them Level 1 or something.

[shadowofchaos]

So what? FE6 had two dancers.

And one of them was inaccessible depending on the route you picked.

[Vicious Sal]

So what? FE6 had two dancers.

Making Renning viable is a matter of adjusting his assumed promotions. The fact that you're making the balances more arbitrary (read: laguz) means you're missing the spirit of an RR hack. Adjusting the dragon laguz in that instance is a matter of making them Level 1 or something.

I don't really understand why you are rejecting what you are asking for...

EDIT: And obviously someone who is sane will balance it so that Volke/Renning are usable and Sephiran doesnt end the game by existing

it even says Balance. So why all this reluctance?

Anyway' date=' I balanced Sephiran for you, take into account the weight and power of dark tomes, these stats and growths assume NO promotion gains. The only gains for promotions you could make are T1 --> T2 = +Staves and T2 ---> T3 = Light magic[/size']

This is mostly because of the difference in weight for light and dark, his stats are now adjusted to dark magic weight and power, and if he still can use light, he'll suddenly double everything regardless.

Growth rates are so that without promo bonusses they reach his averages almost exactly. And with averages I mean his current Boss stats, yes, boss stats, so + 2 Def, and - 4 Spd compared to the Lehran you recruit.

Unit	Lv	Hp	Str	Mag	Skll	Spd	Lck	Def	Res	Growths:	HP	STR	MAG	SKLL	SPD	LCK	DEF	RES	Over Average:	HP	Str	Mag	Skll	Spd	Lck	Def	Res
Seph	1/0/0	17	5	3	6	11	9	3	6			60%	30%	65%	65%	45%	55%	40%	60%			1.1	1.1	.05	1.05	.65	.35	.8	.2

EDIT: Oh, and Fe6 dancers? I don't remeber either lalum or elphin being able to refresh more than one person, here you can just have leane and rafiel endlessly refresh themselves and 4 other people. Lalum <---> Elphin is completely useless compared to Leanne + 3 others <---> Rafiel + 1 other being refreshed.

EDIT2: Since three chancellor tier probably would require three different class slots, my other idea was having Sephiran level as a laguz, slowly, with 40 levels. He'd have access to both light and dark, and also staves, but we could have light only be available in shops until later. If Sephiran is raised with 40 levels, gets his mastery through a satori sign(?) he'd have these growths:

Hp = 85 %

Str = 40 %

Mag = 95%

Skll = 95 %

Spd = 65 %

Lck = 80 %

Def = 55 %

Res = 60 %

Absurdly high, but with the slow levelling this could work.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Vicious Sal

[Lord Raven]

easy to put a draft clause and I don't think most people really have the patience to do that because it takes forever

I don't really understand why you are rejecting what you are asking for...

I was saying adjust the promotion times and adjust the levels of some of the laguz, I don't think the dragon laguz are going to be very broken at some point given the fact that in NM and HM not even Tauroneo is invincible (and some enemies after 1-6 definitely won't be too kind to them, especially since they don't have player phase combat for a while) Edited August 24, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Vicious Sal]

easy to put a draft clause and I don't think most people really have the patience to do that because it takes forever

I was saying adjust the promotion times and adjust the levels of some of the laguz, I don't think the dragon laguz are going to be very broken at some point given the fact that in NM and HM not even Tauroneo is invincible (and some enemies after 1-6 definitely won't be too kind to them, especially since they don't have player phase combat for a while)

And what exactly about adjusting promotion times and levels of some laguz (and with levels the stats alter as well) is not balancing? To give you an idea, the dragons right now have these stats:

8 --> 16 DEF & 9 --> 18 Res

13 --> 26 Def & 3 --> 6 Res

Edward has these as bases: 5 & 0

He is beaten by both gareth and nasir by a huge amount.

Strength:

Edward: 13 ATK

Gareth: 25 ATK untransformed / 37 ATK transformed

Nasir: 22 ATK untransformed / 33 ATK transformed

They take less damage, hit harder and gain EXP at a reasonable rate because they fight untransformed. When they finally transform, they get 2 range and about 12 turns to raze the map. pugo doesn't even do double digit damage to gareth untransformed. And if they get swarmed... 53 & 58 Hp?

I understand it's fun to play with something like that, but it makes even hard mode a breeze. Even without player phase they do more damage than edward's PP + EP together in one EP.

Also, could you not only reply to the balancing question but actually react to the things i gave you and my suggestions?

Edited August 24, 2012 by Vicious Sal

[Lord Raven]

I think his leveling doesnt need to be as slow as a laguz's but the Level 40 idea works better than 3 chancellor classes... my only concern is how the promos will work with it, because he does have forced promotions. I think replacing Chancellor with Priestess and replacing Light Mage/Sage/Priestess all with the Chancellor class is good, he just needs higher base magic. I think having all magic upon promotion is fine for him, and him starting out with just light magic and/or staffs (because you don't have a single staff user except like Oliver lol).

When they finally transform, they get 2 range and about 12 turns to raze the map. pugo doesn't even do double digit damage to gareth untransformed. And if they get swarmed... 53 & 58 Hp?

Their transformation gauges don't go up if they counterattack, which will be often. 10 Defense won't be able to save them in that instance. Of course, they aren't actually worried about this until the latter half of Part 1. On top of that, their growths are low that each level up won't matter too much anyway even if they will get a lot. Some playtesting needs to be done because we obviously can't theorymon everything.

Their speed isn't keeping up with the enemies btw and they still have to go through hell untransformed, even if they hit harder and take longer to kill. They will get doubled by a lot of things once you hit like 1-6. Also, Muarim's more or less invincible when he's transformed but I don't see anyone complaining about how broken he is. 1-2 range doesn't make a difference when you are not dying. Same concept applies to Nailah and the Black Knight. It just happens you get them earlier and chapters also take forever to finish with them, too.

RR games tend to be a naturally more balanced once we figure out what promotion times we should use.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Lord Raven