Rate the Unit: Day 40 - Soren

[Ema Skye]

Dat Rules (borrowed/stolen from Integrity)

- Ratings are assumed to be on Hard Mode (JP Maniac). And only hard mode!

- Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted. If somebody else said what you want to already, quote them explicitly.

+/- ≤1 point extra regarding personality/appearance is encouraged, but no more. If you exercise your bias privileges, please do so explicitly.

- Numerical votes out of 10, or something proportional to it. Make it easy to calculate for my sake.

- Every ranking phase ends when the next RTU thread is posted (at this point, it's hard to tell).

- I will insist you do not use the "Not X" reason on any character, where X is another unit. If you do, your vote will be thrown out.

- "Recruits X" or "takes you to X chapter" or "Gives you Bronze Sword" arguments are explicitly banned. C'mon, people, this shouldn't need to be a rule. That's not gameplay performance.

- Assume that the character in question is being recruited.

- Similar to the "Recruits X" rule, do not use "she brings a Savior to the team" as an argument.

- BEXP is free to be used in any quantity on any character.

- Skills can be reassigned freely.

- No transfers.

- Anyone that has done a RD RTU withholds the privilege to tell you your rating is bogus and demand you revise it if it breaks any of the above. I will not throw out votes anonymously, you will be informed and given a chance to revise.

Averages:

Fiona: 1.20

Meg: 1.34

Astrid: 2.10

Lethe: 2.21

Vika: 2.40

Leonardo: 2.53

Lucia: 3.06

Danved: 3.11

Tormod: 3.28

Brom: 3.56

Ilyana: 3.75

Makalov: 4.00

Nealuchi: 4.41

Tauroneo: 4.50

Geoffery: 4.50

Black Knight: 4.60

Maurim: 4.72

Kieran: 4.82

Aran: 4.92

Laura: 5.13

Heather: 5.29

Edward: 6.31

Micaiah: 6.50

Calill: 6.59

Mordecai: 7.17

Marcia: 7.31

Zihark: 7.44

Nephenee: 7.74

Elincia: 8.21

Leanne: 8.38

Rafiel: 8.45

Jill: 8.46

Volug: 8.87

Sothe: 8.93

Nailah: 9.00

Nolan: 9.06

Ike: 9.28

Titania: 9.76

Haar: 9.91

[MacLovin]

5/10

Kinda average-ish in HM.

Good in NM and EM, but in HM he's got spd cap problems and some durability problems.

But, arms scrolls+staves and he's handy for Greil Route and restoring Ike.

[nano]

Decent chip and damage, and is actually available enough to be worked into something decent come part 4. I'd say about on par with Calill, maybe slightly better. Transfers are amazing on him though.

5.5/10

[bottlegnomes]

Titania < Haar. Estoy un poco triste. Not that I'm surprised.

Decent chip and damage, and is actually available enough to be worked into something decent come part 4. I'd say about on par with Calill, maybe slightly better. Transfers are amazing on him though.

5.5/10

This -1 because he's a bitch. 4.5/10

[Jedi]

6/10

Soren is blessed with very good Magic and Skill which makes him a good backline unit also with that insane magic + an arm's scroll or two he can potentially be one of the best healers, unfortunately his lack of speed, hp and defense take him down a few pegs because he ends up not being able to double much and gets doubled himself very easily especially during late game. He does have the adept skill but unfortunately he can't normally use it very often

A Support with Ike or other earth element characters can help him avoid some attacks. Overall he is a decent unit with good availability being in most of the game after part 3 starts.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Jedisupersonic

[Vorena]

lol Calill got a ~6.0 rating and I am so far seeing below that for soren. Before, many people agreed Soren makes the better mage in this game, and he does. Having similar stats to Calill, but with better magic and worse luck. Not like luck is much of a problem when you can get up to ~15 luck which is enough to avoid most critical attacks anyway. He has enough availability that you can start working his B rank can be worked into S rank of fire or thunder if you really want due to the arms scrolls. And arm scrolls are not needed in this game at all. 6/10 The class is helpful, but not outstanding.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Dark Pegasi

[I don't play for turns]

Like most magic-users, he'll have low defense and HP, making his durability a problem. He'll also have low luck, which hurts his avoid, but it won't have too much of an effect on his dodge and accuracy, and because he'll have high skill. He'll have insanely high magic and resistance as well, making him an excellent magical tank and dealer of damage. However, somewhat like Micaiah but to a lesser extent, His speed prevents him from doubling so he'll usually leave enemies alive with little health after one round, and his avoid will be low. He has low physical durability and speed, but high magic, accuracy, and resistance. He's like a better Micaiah, thanks to that little bit of speed and better availability. 5.5/10 including a +.5 bias due to him being so smart.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

He's got the best Magic in the game, IIRC being the only magic user who can reach 40 Magic (which he caps most of the time even before transfer data). He has sole access to Rexcalibur until lolbastian shows up. Otherwise, he's just average, although he can pick up Discipline and a Heal staff and reach A Staves quickly enough to use the good ones.

5.75/10

[Shotguner159]

He's got the best Magic in the game, IIRC being the only magic user who can reach 40 Magic.

Micaiah has a 40 Mag cap too, and she has a 80% growth in it too.

I find Soren to be poor. His 18 base SPD means he doubles nothing, and his poor Durability (28HP/9DEF) means that he'll die in two hits from any unit that attacks him with something other than magic, and that makes up the majority of the enemy forces. He does have his uses delivering potshots, and using staffs if he promotes, but he doesn't supply you with much you can't get elsewhere. If only IS had given branded characters higher growths and caps than Beorc units, then he'd probably have much more use. Also, he's forced into Ike's path in Part 4, so he can't help out your other Magic Units in the desert.

4.5/10

Edited June 11, 2012 by Shotguner159

[Starwave]

...What?!?

Calill is getting higher scores than Soren on average? Does anyone else not see how absurdity of the situation? Yes, I realize that the bias score system might explain a discrepancy in scores, but nothing as substantial as what i'm seeing right now. For example:

Great for 2-E due to meteor access and the large amount of ledges available. Siege tomes in general are just very helpful in many situations, and she does have the bases and weapon ranks to use them effectively. Then she can get 2 or 3 chapters of Paragon help and contribute further. She has nice offensive growths, and magic is great in the desert. If she managed to do well in the Silver army she can easily destroy the 4-E-1 armors and even get 34 AS for 4-E-5 cover auras. She is probably the second sage behind Soren. <br style="color: rgb(7, 55, 2); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); ">Also 'em legs.<br style="color: rgb(7, 55, 2); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); ">5.5/10 + 1 bias

Decent chip and damage, and is actually available enough to be worked into something decent come part 4. I'd say about on par with Calill, maybe slightly better. Transfers are amazing on him though.5.5/10

The above doesn't really fly for me at all. Bias is irrelevant, but even by his own admission he considers Soren to be better than Calill in his previous vote.

Also

Calill rocks. She's one of the best magic users in the game, reliably uses Rexflame without worrying about being weighed down, can double in Endgame, and has fun throwing Sieges everywhere. Durability's not that great and availability stinks, but she joins at the right time where she can take BEXP without competition.<br style="color: rgb(7, 55, 2); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); "><br style="color: rgb(7, 55, 2); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); ">7/10

He's got the best Magic in the game, IIRC being the only magic user who can reach 40 Magic (which he caps most of the time even before transfer data). He has sole access to Rexcalibur until lolbastian shows up. Otherwise, he's just average, although he can pick up Discipline and a Heal staff and reach A Staves quickly enough to use the good ones.<br style="color: rgb(7, 55, 2); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); ">5.75/10

There shouldn't be 1.25 discrepancy in scores. Before anyone gets on my case for telling others how to vote, i'm not saying. But when you compare the two characters (there's no debating, Soren IS a better character than Calill) between those 2 characters shouldn't be that high, especially if the bias score isn't used.

I'm ok with Folgore's vote since he actually does gives a legitimate reason as to why there's such a large gap in votes. (not that I agree with his assertion since Calill isn't THAT good in the desert and it's only 1 map)

---

Not that i'm implying i'm perfect in any way (i've made my fair share of dubious votes) I still think that large discrepancies in votes like the ones I listed shouldn't happen. This isn't a popularity contest.

Anyway

Soren is pretty good. He comes at pretty good level, has decent growths and he's typically capping most of his stats before promotion (when you account for BEXP). Never overwhelmingly good, just decent for most of the game. Adept is a damn good ability to have, no matter what the character and when he promotes really starts to pull his wait.

6.5/10 + 0.5 bias so

7/10

Edited June 11, 2012 by Starwave

[PKL]

Calill was voted way too high. People forget this is HM and that shes smelly in HM. Soren has much more availability and can contribute a bit, even if his spd is harder to fix in HM. Calill practically doesnt exist and will be too underleveled to be of any use when she joins the GM.

[Shadow Mir]

5/10. Slow, but his potshots are highly damaging. Unfortunately, the lack of BEXP does a number on him. On a side note, I'm not understanding why the mention of arms scrolls, considering that outside of 4-E, they're almost useless.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Golden Cucco

[Starwave]

Calill was voted way too high. People forget this is HM and that shes smelly in HM. Soren has much more availability and can contribute a bit, even if his spd is harder to fix in HM. Calill practically doesnt exist and will be too underleveled to be of any use when she joins the GM.

Right, i've basically accepted at this point that these are about as relevant as Ganondorf's competitive value in melee. It's a pity, because up until now I thought people were pretty good at being impartial or at least pretending to be impartial. I mean look at this post

I can't agree with Soren or (especially) Pelleas being better (the latter in particular is especially outlandish, if you ask me; I can at least understand an argument that Soren might be better)...<br style="color: rgb(7, 55, 2); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); ">That being said, 6 +1 bias for 7/10. One of the better mages in the game, but that's not really saying a whole lot, and her availability hurts her.

and then this

4.5/10. Slow, but his potshots are highly damaging. Unfortunately, he's locked to the worst route for mages. On a side note, I'm not understanding why the mention of arms scrolls, considering that outside of 4-E, they're almost useless.

I don't even need to go over why I find this post to be unacceptable. The heavy emphasis on "routes" (which are 2 chapters), the vague and short entry,and the complete disregard for consistency baffles me. It's not even the first time you've done this cucco (I don't know you, but i've read every RTU thread) and I doubt it will be the last. You're too biased.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Starwave

[MacLovin]

Hmn.

How about the fact that alot of folks train Oscar/Gatrie/Mia/Boyd/Shinon/Haar/Neph/Tits on HM, instead of Soren.

And the fact that alot of people will be giving him positive or negative bias.

But Calill got alot of positive bias.

Also, Starwave, Soren doesn't have much use in the GMs, outside of 1-2 range nuking/healing.

Edwards never going to rise above Aran, deal with it.

[Starwave]

Hmn.

How about the fact that alot of folks train Oscar/Gatrie/Mia/Boyd/Shinon/Haar/Neph/Tits on HM, instead of Soren.

And the fact that alot of people will be giving him positive or negative bias.

But Calill got alot of positive bias.

Also, Starwave, Soren doesn't have much use in the GMs, outside of 1-2 range nuking/healing.

Edwards never going to rise above Aran, deal with it.

PEMN, I can't believe you forgot that. Besides, if Soren isn't going to get trained then Calill sure isn't going to see any use after she joins the GM. Regardless even if Calill WAS better (which she isn't) there shouldn't be this wide of a gap in votes.

lol, talk about using the oldest trick in the book in an attempt to discredit me. That said, I mostly made that comment to spark discussion. And because Aran irks me. He irks me so.

[bottlegnomes]

Well this is hardly the first of these absurdities. Nolan and Nailah > Sothe and Volug? I don't give a shit if Nailah trivializes 1.5 chapters, Volug's done that in like 5 and has more to do it in. Nolan's literally just an unpromoted, worse version of Sothe for all of part 1 and arguably part 3.

Edited June 11, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Russa]

I'd give him 6 cause he is the only "available" magic user on GM side. Remember that Calil is almost unavailable and cant grow as easy as a Soren with some feed ;) 6.5/10 with bias.

[MacLovin]

Assuming the CRks and GMs all count as seperate teams.

Calill is a good option for BEXP dumping from the CRK batch.

The GMs have a team full of rape-ass gods.

However, the things that Soren wants from the GMs, are contested.

-Crown

-Bexp

-Daunt

-Resolve

Is he better than a Crowned Gatrie/Oscar?

Can he use the BEXP as well as Neph/Mia/Boyd/Oscar/Gatrie?

Daunt isn't contested much, except by like.....Resolve!RHys.

Resolve is kinda contested by RHys, maybe Mia, maybe BraveSword!Mist, and Illyana?

Or it could just stay with the DB who need it more.

Also, SOren mains the weakest magic type and is an asshole.

Calill, is on a small team, with little availibility.

She would probobly want

The 3-9 crown

Bexp

Adept

She beats Mak/Kieran/Astrid/.Devdanved with the Crown in the long run

Crowned!Marcia probobly beats her.

Bexp-

CRKs get a big chunk.

Marcia makes great use of it.

Calill would probobly be the 2nd best, in the long run.

Come p4, Soren is LOCKED to greil, and most of his help is just clearing 4-1 and hoping that he doesn't get gang raped, and restore staffing Ike in 4-4.

And assisting in the routes.

Calill can go Silver for desert, or Hawk for clearing the crowded route/kill boss maps.

Also. Soren doesn't bring much to the party in the GMs.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Folgore Green

[Shadow Mir]

Right, i've basically accepted at this point that these are about as relevant as Ganondorf's competitive value in melee. It's a pity, because up until now I thought people were pretty good at being impartial or at least pretending to be impartial. I mean look at this post

[/size][/color]

and then this

I don't even need to go over why I find this post to be unacceptable. The heavy emphasis on "routes" (which are 2 chapters), the vague and short entry,and the complete disregard for consistency baffles me. It's not even the first time you've done this cucco (I don't know you, but i've read every RTU thread) and I doubt it will be the last. You're too biased.

I've never really been one to say something wordy when it comes to these (except when I cared to). And besides, bottlegnomes said what I wanted to say better than I could've. I'm not really feeling Nolan > Sothe either, but I'm not going to whine about it.

Edit: And Folgore Green also brought up some good points, though I'd think Calill would want Paragon and not Adept.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Golden Cucco

[MacLovin]

I've never really been one to say something wordy when it comes to these (except when I cared to). And besides, bottlegnomes said what I wanted to say better than I could've. I'm not really feeling Nolan > Sothe either, but I'm not going to whine about it.

Edit: And Folgore Green also brought up some good points, though I'd think Calill would want Paragon and not Adept.

Well, Paragon for more exp in 3-9, or Adept to Adept-Meteor the boss.

Also, Nailah makes several of fe10s most tedious chapters much easier.

[PuffPuff]

Pros

-Has great speed to make up for his bad Con.

-Has Adapt without any Skill points cost.

-Great Mag

-Great Skill

-Great Res

-Great to battle other mages via weapon triangle with his good Res.

-Great availability

Cons

-Has less Str than Ilyana making tome lifts a little harder for him.

-Doesn't get as good defense as Ilyana.

-Doesn't do well against 1~2 ranged melee weapon users.

Better than any other Mag user in the game!

7.8/10

[PKL]

I expected a lot more from you Green. You have disappointed me again. Try using Calill in HM, shes horrible. She needs an early crown for 3-9 and even then, shes not guaranteed to meteor the boss well due to the swordmasters in the way. She also comes with extremely bad stats in 3-11 if early crowned as well as a whopping ^6 MOVE and most of the GM maps dont need a 6 move unit tagging along because most of the remaining maps are heavily FLIGHT-biased. Marcia is by far, the best choice to put your CRK resources in IMO as her flight can help a lot more than calill. Soren has much better availability and thus much more time to get to a decent level. And can meteor stuff in a lot more chapters. He can also help clear 4-4 faster by opening the doors with siege tomes.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

If a magic user is actually trained in this game considering the amount of balls they suck, its Calill because she is able to wield Rexflame, the only way to have actual offence as mage. Soren's superior availability is practically pointless when he contributes jackshit to GMs, whom I remind you is full of long movement range badasses, while Calill is CRK who just happen to have 2!!!! Paragons just floating around, have less ideal Cavalry for long time use, is only contested for them by like Marcia, and can casually potshot with meteor or ledge advantage. Desert is, by far the best map in this game to be magic user. Calill can be there, Soren can not. Calill can meteor potshot in 2-E, Soren can potshot in that one GM defend map. That just about cancels out each other. That is assuming we use Soren's sorry ass enough to make that potshot of any value.

Calill has respectable amount of looks, Soren is a bitch. There is absolutely no reason to use Soren outside personal bias. Even non efficency player can see that Soren is undurable, lacks potential because caps and to top it all off competes with the freaking GMs instead of like, Kieran?

[Starwave]

Assuming the CRks and GMs all count as seperate teams.

Calill is a good option for BEXP dumping from the CRK batch.

The GMs have a team full of rape-ass gods.

However, the things that Soren wants from the GMs, are contested.

-Crown

-Bexp

-Daunt

-Resolve

Is he better than a Crowned Gatrie/Oscar?

Can he use the BEXP as well as Neph/Mia/Boyd/Oscar/Gatrie?

Daunt isn't contested much, except by like.....Resolve!RHys.

Resolve is kinda contested by RHys, maybe Mia, maybe BraveSword!Mist, and Illyana?

Or it could just stay with the DB who need it more.

Also, SOren mains the weakest magic type and is an asshole.

Calill, is on a small team, with little availibility.

She would probobly want

The 3-9 crown

Bexp

Adept

She beats Mak/Kieran/Astrid/.Devdanved with the Crown in the long run

Crowned!Marcia probobly beats her.

Bexp-

CRKs get a big chunk.

Marcia makes great use of it.

Calill would probobly be the 2nd best, in the long run.

Come p4, Soren is LOCKED to greil, and most of his help is just clearing 4-1 and hoping that he doesn't get gang raped, and restore staffing Ike in 4-4.

And assisting in the routes.

Calill can go Silver for desert, or Hawk for clearing the crowded route/kill boss maps.

Also. Soren doesn't bring much to the party in the GMs.

That was a good write up, but nothing about was really substantial (because really, if what you're saying is common knowledge, why would Soren be higher in the tier list?). From i've gathered from your post, you're basically stating your opinion/personal exp (which is cool, I never said I had a problem with it) but don't act like what you're saying is a fact. I honestly don't quite understand your line of logic in regards to the crown... Calill isn't beating "anyone" for the crown since you're likely to use it in part 3 when the CRK's join up with the GMs and thus has competition with everyone else. Using it beforehand is just pointless since the GMs literally 1 chapter later.

I know for a fact that 4-5 can cleared in a short few times, so her contribution there is meaningless (and remember a fast clear time was the same argument that was used to shut down Kurth.) and her performance in the other "route" chapters aren't that big of a deal.

Calill is a unit with little availability and unremarkable stats that only truly sees use with some "special attention." Soren is a unit that is unremarkable for most of the game, but has higher availability, better growths, a better innate ability makes him better imo. Calill's contributions to 2E and from 3-9 to 4-E-5 don't surpass Soren's contributions throughout part 3 (even if they aren't that substantial)

I've never really been one to say something wordy when it comes to these (except when I cared to). And besides, bottlegnomes said what I wanted to say better than I could've. I'm not really feeling Nolan > Sothe either, but I'm not going to whine about it.<br style="color: rgb(7, 55, 2); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); "><br style="color: rgb(7, 55, 2); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); ">Edit: And Folgore Green also brought up some good points, though I'd think Calill would want Paragon and not Adept.

Sorry for jumping on your case. Anyway it's my fault for being optimistic about the RTU threads.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Starwave

[Soren37]

I'm gonna take a stab at this.

Soren, despite being my favourite character at one point, performs pitifully in HM. He is overshadowed and out-contested for resources among the GMs, with the exclusion of BEXP as stated in the rules. The only problem is how to give that BEXP to Soren. Due to the mechanics of BEXP, we need to baby Soren for 5 levels (assuming average growths), before we can start to see some grand changes to his HP, SPD, and LCK (the next three highest growths). He'll be able to max out his SPD in 3 levels, which means that we can now almost let him roam around by himself.

However, feeding him 5 levels while the rest of GMs are running around looking for levels is tough. He's reduced to pot-shotting, healing if you can get it to him, and giving Adept to Mia. He offers a Dark support, which is slightly useless. Ike or someone else might like the ATK bonus and the Avo, but overall, Ike would much rather Mia probably, as Mia has long term potential. While IkexSoren gives you a +30 Avo, you need a lot of work for it, which you almost don't have the time for in an efficient run of HM.

Overall, Soren is much like Edward. They're excellent characters on EM on NM, and their stats look incredible on paper, but in game, he just falls apart.

SCORE: 5/10. He's not bad, but he's not good.