ok i wanna know cuz im curious..

[BBM]

When characters have to build up from E rank in FE13 after reclassing, that's not the fault of the system as much as how it was implemented, where some characters had no reclass options where they could keep their original weapon rank. What if you replaced one of Callum or Donny's options with Cavalier? Or one of Richt's options with Dark Mage? It's the exact same system, but with less grinding required.

Edited June 17, 2012 by BigBangMeteor

[Only My Unit]

Of course. You can only make something better by working on it long enough. That goes for making units the best in this game. How much grinding you do determines how strong your units will be. That's what all RPGs boil down to. Weapon ranks also carry over from class to class if the character's trained in the weapon and both classes can use it. You can switch back and forth and have both weapon ranks high, too.

[Dark Nocturne]

Your grammar sucks and your opinion is hardly coherent. I wouldn't be talking if I were you. I also highly doubt that you actually respect my opinion.

Neither have most of the people who are arguing about the game! So are you going to assume that the opinions of 2 users are the gospel?

Learn some reading comprehension. Reclassing is widely and commonly used in FE12. Change seals are a gimmick in FE13 because of all of the limitations that I had already mentioned.

Do you really want to go here? I will wreck you.

Why are you forging E rank weapons when you could be forging better weapons? Why do you need to engage in skirmishes to fund change seal shenanigans? Thanks for proving my point.

Really? I doubt it. People used to think that you needed Wolf and Sedgar to even have a chance at FE11 H5. Clearly it wasn't that brutal! And now, with some people claiming that Nosferatu trivializes the game, then there is really no evidence that you "need all the skills you can get."

Callum as priest. Richt as archer. And so on.

Oh, excellent non-apology apology there. I've never seen that before!

And that's exactly what made it so good. But you're also wrong in that there is no penalty: every decision that you made had opportunity costs, and those are pretty significant.

The necessity of foresight is overrated; it's especially harmful if it discourages the usage of those mechanics in the first place. Furthermore, your proposed scenario doesn't actually exist because some characters perform poorly in mounted classes and most perform poorly in magic classes.

But Navarre has the option to go into cavalier, and he retains his sword rank, which is good. If you need an unpromoted unit to go into another class in FE13, then you're not forced to leave him in that class afterwards.

If you ask me, some limitations make options not even worth considering.

id like to have at least one intelligent debate on this forum without people acting like petulant children... act like an adult please people will be more likely to treat you the same. (if however you are a child im sorry you'll grow up eventually)

also you dont NEED to grind, it just makes units better there are plenty of chapters to train in the normal main story plus some random skirmishes that randomly appear, as oposed to buying scent boxes and spamming enemies. i got through my first normal mode playthrough without a scent box use and i made it fine with reclassed units. you just have to be smart. i also want to state that while you have all the right to have an opinion on this game as a lot of info is released, dont treat your opinion like fact as to how much certain units perform in certain classes.

not to sound overly bitchy but its annoying

Edited June 17, 2012 by Dark Nocturne

[BBM]

But this is Fire Emblem, not Final Fantasy. I don't generally go for LTC, but grinding is boring and annoying. Or do you Arena abuse or Tower Abuse all your characters up in the GBA games? And his point about starting with E ranks when reclassing is valid, although I maintain that that's the fault of the specific classes some characters got more than a fault of the system as a whole.

[Only My Unit]

id like to have at least one intelligent debate on this forum without people acting like petulant children... act like an adult please people will be more likely to treat you the same. (if however you are a child im sorry you'll grow up eventually)

also you dont NEED to grind, it just makes units better there are plenty of chapters to train in the normal main story plus some random skirmishes that randomly appear, as oposed to buying scent boxes and spamming enemies. i got through my first normal mode playthrough without a scent box use and i made it fine with reclassed units. you just have to be smart. i also want to state that while you have all the right to have an opinion on this game as a lot of info is released, dont treat your opinion like fact as to how much certain units perform in certain classes.

not to sound overly bitchy but its annoying

Normal's a joke compared to Lunatic. That's barely valid in any FE argument. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you basically restated everything that was already said uselessly (except for a few words to dondon), to put it bluntly.

Edit: Yeah Big Bang, I do. I usually complete a run on normal without it and then grind on harder difficulties, because I've played a lot of games that are either really long or require grinding or a lot of tries to beat.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Only My Unit

[dondon151]

id like to have at least one intelligent debate on this forum without people acting like petulant children... act like an adult please people will be more likely to treat you the same.

i hope this wasn't directed at me because

well to put it simply

i didn't start it, nor did i resort to insults on personal character (well, except for the reading comprehension one).

i also want to state that while you have all the right to have an opinion on this game as a lot of info is released, dont treat your opinion like fact as to how much certain units perform in certain classes.

but it is a fact. it's as clear as day. there are discrete bits of information stored in the game that directly dictate exactly how a unit performs.

[Anouleth]

Of course. You can only make something better by working on it long enough. That goes for making units the best in this game. How much grinding you do determines how strong your units will be. That's what all RPGs boil down to. Weapon ranks also carry over from class to class if the character's trained in the weapon and both classes can use it. You can switch back and forth and have both weapon ranks high, too.

Sure, you can do all that. But if reclass is only useful when you grind your way to hell and back, it is a badly designed mechanic from the point of view of dondon who doesn't grind at all. Or to put it another way, this mechanic seems designed more to appeal to grindy players who want to have characters with really high capped stats and lots of cool skills after going through every class in the game.

[CrashGordon94]

I like FE13's system but I think it would be better if some classes had higher weapon ranks.

[NeonZ]

Sure, you can do all that. But if reclass is only useful when you grind your way to hell and back, it is a badly designed mechanic from the point of view of dondon who doesn't grind at all. Or to put it another way, this mechanic seems designed more to appeal to grindy players who want to have characters with really high capped stats and lots of cool skills after going through every class in the game.

Based on what I've seen from playthroughs and impressions of this game, it seems like the game has enough chapters and gives experience quickly enough to justify at least one side class change + level ups for the skills and one last changing back to another class due to better combat role, if necessary. It's not a mechanic only around for grinding.

Edited June 17, 2012 by NeonZ

[arvilino]

FE13's system is rather limited compared to FE11 and FE12. But there definitely are practical uses for it.

For example Velvet can go Dracoknight for flying utility, but in addition the base stat changes and the Str+2 skill which results in her with higher might as a Dracoknight with a regular Bronze Axe than as a Taguel with the Beast Stone. Also a character who may not be entirely useful(which most except your main few units in Lunatic may be) but has built up a high support rank could reclass to a class that provides better bonuses for the partner they built support with.

Also while not it's main focus there's advantage in the characters level being reset to 1. Frederick for example would stop gaining EXP when it's very possible for him to reach level 20 half way through the game.

Edited June 17, 2012 by arvilino

[Polaris]

I'm actually contemplating just how powerful all the Oifey archetypes would be if they had access to the FE13 system.

OH GOD SETH AND TITANIA

Seriously though, I think that promoted classes deserve higher weapon ranks on a class change, but otherwise the system looks good. I was never a fan of the class change system in FE11 though. I like the idea of characters being proficient in a limited number of classes, rather than having access to everything. Also, this seems harder to abuse, in the sense that you can't change everyone into a flier for one chapter, and then make everyone a ground unit for the next.

[Othin]

dondon, you seem to be making the false assumption that increased flexibility is automatically better.

FE13 offers some flexibility, and that flexibility offers a unique set of options to each character. FE11/12 offer more flexibility, and in doing so make the distinctions between characters pitifully tiny. They no longer have mobility or weapon access or dramatic stat differences as inherent qualities: instead, they are nothing more than a jumble of similar stats and growths with some WExp mixed in, and you glue that virtually-identical jumble onto whatever class you wish. It's a disgusting mockery of FE.

In FE13, if you want more options, you have to get those options with different characters, or work around it somehow. Berserker is a fantastic class, offering huge Str and Spd bonuses in Double, but you can only access it by reclassing someone. If you want Vake to be a Berserker, you have to choose whether to promote him to Barbarian immediately at LV10 and go to Berserker from there, spending more time in an unpromoted class, or promote him to Warrior and then go to Berserker after gaining some levels in the promoted class, taking longer but spending more time with higher promoted stats and getting different skills.

Frederick is a highly important character, especially on Lunatic. At LV10+, he's essentially offered a four-way branched promotion - or rather a five-way path, as he doesn't need to use a Change Seal at all. The most obvious options are Paladin and Dragonmaster. Either one will improve his Spd, Res, and mobility to different extents, giving up one of his three weapon types but also at least one of his two weaknesses as a Great Knight, with Dragonmaster in particular giving up both weaknesses in exchange for a weakness to bows. He also has Griffin Knight and General as alternative options. Griffin Knight gives up not only swords but also lances, having a number of stat disadvantages compared to Dragonmaster but having more Spd and soon getting the Carrier skill for even better mobility. General instead gives up mobility to improve Frederick's other stats even more. It also allows him to learn Defense Cry, a team support skill especially valuable on the highest difficulties, when you don't have stats to spare.

Most characters don't have quite as much flexibility readily available. Regardless, a set of 3-4 tiers of branched promotions offers plenty of options for each character, unique options which improve the distinctiveness of each character rather than destroying it.

[Dark Sage]

I think one of the major strikes against reclassing in this game is the fact that some of the characters have terrible options. Vake to Barbarian makes sense and the stat boosts seem worth it, but who is honestly going to reclass Sariya into an Archer or Tiamo into a Dark Mage?

Also it doesn't help that even the promoted classes start with E in their weapon ranks. With unpromoted classes, I can see it work better, but FE11/FE12 at least gave the promoted classes a minimum of D rank in their respective weapon ranks. This is especially a kick in the balls when you realize that if you, say, reclass Vake to Thief, he's stuck as a thief for 10 levels before being able to change his class again.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Tyrant Sage

[Polaris]

I think one of the major strikes against reclassing in this game is the fact that some of the characters have terrible options. Vake to Barbarian makes sense and the stat boosts seem worth it, but who is honestly going to reclass Sariya into an Archer or Tiamo into a Dark Mage?

Also it doesn't help that even the promoted classes start with E in their weapon ranks. With unpromoted classes, I can see it work better with unpromoted classes, but FE11/FE12 at least gave the promoted classes a minimum of D rank in their respective weapon ranks. This is especially a kick in the balls when you realize that if you, say, reclass Vake to Thief, he's stuck as a thief for 10 levels before being able to change his class again.

The Dark Mage line get some fantastic skills. If you aren't totally against grinding, then it's a valid path to take for Tiamo.

Sariya gets skill+2, and a Hit/Avoid+ skill as an Archer, which alleviates some of her weaker stats. It's not something that you'd do in a run that doesn't involve grinding, but it's hardly a "bad" option per se.

Only Donny really suffers, but that's only because none of his reclass paths use lances.

[Othin]

I think one of the major strikes against reclassing in this game is the fact that some of the characters have terrible options. Vake to Barbarian makes sense and the stat boosts seem worth it, but who is honestly going to reclass Sariya into an Archer or Tiamo into a Dark Mage?

Also it doesn't help that even the promoted classes start with E in their weapon ranks. With unpromoted classes, I can see it work better with unpromoted classes, but FE11/FE12 at least gave the promoted classes a minimum of D rank in their respective weapon ranks. This is especially a kick in the balls when you realize that if you, say, reclass Vake to Thief, he's stuck as a thief for 10 levels before being able to change his class again.

In FE13, the most feasible reclasses tend to be ones where the character can link the classes by means of shared weapon ranks. Tiamo, for example, would not want to go Pegasus Knight --> Dark Mage. But she might want to go Pegasus Knight --> Dark Pegasus --> Dark Knight, after training with tomes as a secondary weapon as a Dark Pegasus.

This leaves some reclasses as not very feasible, and that's okay. Vake can be a Thief, but he won't make a very good Thief, and needs to train as a Thief to become competent at it rather than picking it up in an instant. Meanwhile, you have to be wary of those consequences if you would choose to make him a Thief. This is all very sensible, and is exactly how reclassing ought to be handled.

[arvilino]

I think one of the major strikes against reclassing in this game is the fact that some of the characters have terrible options. Vake to Barbarian makes sense and the stat boosts seem worth it, but who is honestly going to reclass Sariya into an Archer or Tiamo into a Dark Mage?

Also it doesn't help that even the promoted classes start with E in their weapon ranks. With unpromoted classes, I can see it work better, but FE11/FE12 at least gave the promoted classes a minimum of D rank in their respective weapon ranks. This is especially a kick in the balls when you realize that if you, say, reclass Vake to Thief, he's stuck as a thief for 10 levels before being able to change his class again.

The ability to forge weapons more than once per chapter means the E isn't such as issue, forged Bronzes can get quite close to the might steel weapons have and are only ~2,600-3,000 gold for a max might forge(or ~1,000-1,200 to equal iron) and have 50 uses on top of that which is more than enough to get to C if I remember correctly. It can be worth it in some cases such as Krom, you have to use him and a decent Bronze Lance is useful since he'll take 4 points less damage from A-rank Sword using enemies.

Additionally Hammers, Armour Slayers,Beast Slayers,etc are all D-rank in this game. Where in FE11, FE12 these weapons were desirable and C-rank which required a promotion and 1 weapon level or 2 weapon levels, in FE13 you only need 1 rank regardless of promotion or not. I found that E-ranks only were a problem if a character was going from a magical class to physical or vice versa or was class changing to an Archer(due to lack of D-rank bows, just Iron and Strong Busting bow which is randomly obtained).

WEXP can also be gained from dual attacks so say you did have Vake as a thief, if he has a support with Krom or a high one with a Female character he make his way to D without you having to rely on Vake fighting alone with a Bronze Sword.

Edited June 17, 2012 by arvilino

[Only My Unit]

Hey, Sorcerer does net Tiamo Vengeance. Pretty good skill, as I assume she won't have to get hit too much to power it up. I would still go back to Dark Pegasus. And Donny does get hit hard with reclasses for weapons, but at least he has high luck and can get Weapon Saver so you don' have to waste a lot of weapons on him. It is going to suck training him still though, but not as much. I hope a third DLC class covers this.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Only My Unit

[Ciarre]

Donny -> Bride

[Only My Unit]

Miriel's next experiment?

[Othin]

Odds aren't looking in favor of a third DLC class, and if we saw one, it'd be postgame-only anyway.

Donny has base 11 Luck and, with Good Growths, a 100% growth in all classes, so he'll have a 50% Weapon Saver activation rate after 14 levels. Won't keep Glass weapons around for long, but it'll certainly help with forges of other weapons. A forged Roy's Toughsword can hit harder than an unforged Silver Sword and is available at D rank; he can keep it around for 50 uses at that rate. Advancing from D to C requires 20 battles, so that's more than enough.

[Thor Odinson]

Donny -> Bride

I approve of this. Just open bride up to be unisex so I can bride Libera already

[Only My Unit]

Shota-traps everywhere!

[Rewjeo]

FE11/12 offer more flexibility, and in doing so make the distinctions between characters pitifully tiny.

Really? I felt like the lack of character diversity stemmed from the fact that those games had absolutely massive casts with either no personality or a personality in a foreign language. As far as distinguishing them as units, they don't feel any less distinct to me than units in any other FE game I've played. If anything, it makes units more worth using because they're less likely to be entirely outclassed by everyone else on your team.

They no longer have mobility or weapon access or dramatic stat differences as inherent qualities: instead, they are nothing more than a jumble of similar stats and growths with some WExp mixed in, and you glue that virtually-identical jumble onto whatever class you wish. It's a disgusting mockery of FE.

So how is that a problem with the reclass system? If everyone had nearly identical stats/growths (which they don't in FE11/12, anyways) in any FE game they would be made virtually identical, except now what class you're in is all that determines how good you are, and there's nothing that can be done about that.

In FE13, if you want more options, you have to get those options with different characters, or work around it somehow. Berserker is a fantastic class, offering huge Str and Spd bonuses in Double, but you can only access it by reclassing someone. If you want Vake to be a Berserker, you have to choose whether to promote him to Barbarian immediately at LV10 and go to Berserker from there, spending more time in an unpromoted class, or promote him to Warrior and then go to Berserker after gaining some levels in the promoted class, taking longer but spending more time with higher promoted stats and getting different skills.

Othin, you seem to be making the false assumption that decreased flexibility is automatically better. Now, in the particular case of the Berserker, I think FE13's system is better because giving the player something really overpowered for free is boring, but classes can be any level of balanced or unbalanced regardless of what kind of reclass system is in place, if one is at all. Flexibility is great as long as it's worth using the flexibility for more than shoving someone into an OP'd class.

Frederick is a highly important character, especially on Lunatic. At LV10+, he's essentially offered a four-way branched promotion - or rather a five-way path, as he doesn't need to use a Change Seal at all. The most obvious options are Paladin and Dragonmaster. Either one will improve his Spd, Res, and mobility to different extents, giving up one of his three weapon types but also at least one of his two weaknesses as a Great Knight, with Dragonmaster in particular giving up both weaknesses in exchange for a weakness to bows. He also has Griffin Knight and General as alternative options. Griffin Knight gives up not only swords but also lances, having a number of stat disadvantages compared to Dragonmaster but having more Spd and soon getting the Carrier skill for even better mobility. General instead gives up mobility to improve Frederick's other stats even more. It also allows him to learn Defense Cry, a team support skill especially valuable on the highest difficulties, when you don't have stats to spare.

Great. Now, other than the obvious problem of adding FE13's class skill system into FE11/12's reclass system, why is this better with FE13's system?

Most characters don't have quite as much flexibility readily available. Regardless, a set of 3-4 tiers of branched promotions offers plenty of options for each character, unique options which improve the distinctiveness of each character rather than destroying it.

Because all that defines who I am as a person is the way I fight.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Rewjeo

[Othin]

Really? I felt like the lack of character diversity stemmed from the fact that those games had absolutely massive casts with either no personality or a personality in a foreign language. As far as distinguishing them as units, they don't feel any less distinct to me than units in any other FE game I've played. If anything, it makes units more worth using because they're less likely to be entirely outclassed by everyone else on your team.

I'm speaking from a gameplay perspective about a gameplay mechanic.

Less likely to be entirely outclassed? Go tell that to Matthis, who wishes he could at least have his horse and dual-weapon access as advantages compared to most of the cast, but they can all do the same. The less unique characteristics characters have, the easier it is for them to be outclassed.

So how is that a problem with the reclass system? If everyone had nearly identical stats/growths (which they don't in FE11/12, anyways) in any FE game they would be made virtually identical, except now what class you're in is all that determines how good you are, and there's nothing that can be done about that.

The reclass system dulls stats/growth differences. Let's look at Rody and Draug in FE12. On the surface, Draug has +5 to his base Def and +15% to his growth. With the class modifiers removed, Draug has just +1 to his base Def and an identical growth. They have access to the same classes, and in those same classes, the Def that would have been a significant difference with no reclassing or restricted reclassing becomes no difference between them at all.

Othin, you seem to be making the false assumption that decreased flexibility is automatically better. Now, in the particular case of the Berserker, I think FE13's system is better because giving the player something really overpowered for free is boring, but classes can be any level of balanced or unbalanced regardless of what kind of reclass system is in place, if one is at all. Flexibility is great as long as it's worth using the flexibility for more than shoving someone into an OP'd class.

I am quite visibly not making that assumption, as if I were I would still oppose FE13's reclass system, but I do not. My standpoint is that increased relevant unit diversity is almost always better. Flexibility is nice when it doesn't get in the way of that: FE13's flexibility means more unit diversity, while FE11/12's flexibility means less.

Great. Now, other than the obvious problem of adding FE13's class skill system into FE11/12's reclass system, why is this better with FE13's system?

They are a unique set of options to him: he could not become a Swordmaster or Warrior or Dark Knight if he wished; those stay as the territory of other characters. Furthermore, all of the options he retains stay restricted in use compared to his base class, so his base class stays important while his options also become significant.

Because all that defines who I am as a person is the way I fight.

From a gameplay perspective, there isn't a whole lot else.

[Emperor Hardin]

This leaves some reclasses as not very feasible, and that's okay. Vake can be a Thief, but he won't make a very good Thief, and needs to train as a Thief to become competent at it rather than picking it up in an instant. Meanwhile, you have to be wary of those consequences if you would choose to make him a Thief. This is all very sensible, and is exactly how reclassing ought to be handled.

Promoting Vake to Hero, then leveling up his sword rank before class changing him to thief would probably be a good idea.