ok i wanna know cuz im curious..

[dondon151]

FE13 offers some flexibility, and that flexibility offers a unique set of options to each character. FE11/12 offer more flexibility, and in doing so make the distinctions between characters pitifully tiny. They no longer have mobility or weapon access or dramatic stat differences as inherent qualities: instead, they are nothing more than a jumble of similar stats and growths with some WExp mixed in, and you glue that virtually-identical jumble onto whatever class you wish. It's a disgusting mockery of FE.

That's a problem? I didn't think that was a problem, much less a "disgusting mockery of FE."

But you're wrong again, anyway; a unit that's good as dracoknight might not be good as horseman, and so on, so the mobility distinction and weapon access distinction still exists.

Frederick is a highly important character, especially on Lunatic. At LV10+, he's essentially offered a four-way branched promotion - or rather a five-way path, as he doesn't need to use a Change Seal at all. The most obvious options are Paladin and Dragonmaster. Either one will improve his Spd, Res, and mobility to different extents, giving up one of his three weapon types but also at least one of his two weaknesses as a Great Knight, with Dragonmaster in particular giving up both weaknesses in exchange for a weakness to bows. He also has Griffin Knight and General as alternative options. Griffin Knight gives up not only swords but also lances, having a number of stat disadvantages compared to Dragonmaster but having more Spd and soon getting the Carrier skill for even better mobility. General instead gives up mobility to improve Frederick's other stats even more. It also allows him to learn Defense Cry, a team support skill especially valuable on the highest difficulties, when you don't have stats to spare.

Or, in FE12, you could just reclass him whenever you wanted, yielding many more strategic options before he reaches L10.

Most characters don't have quite as much flexibility readily available. Regardless, a set of 3-4 tiers of branched promotions offers plenty of options for each character, unique options which improve the distinctiveness of each character rather than destroying it.

Most of the time, useless options that don't deserve consideration.

[Only My Unit]

Wouldn't infinite reclass also need grinding? Also, if you're concerned about everybody being able to be every class, why don't you just play through the game with a bunch of My Unit and Spotpass and DLC characters (which are all nearly the same thing)?

[Dark Sage]

Hey, Sorcerer does net Tiamo Vengeance. Pretty good skill, as I assume she won't have to get hit too much to power it up. I would still go back to Dark Pegasus. And Donny does get hit hard with reclasses for weapons, but at least he has high luck and can get Weapon Saver so you don' have to waste a lot of weapons on him.

Vengeance is not worth the cost of having Tiamo spend 4 levels of her existence in a class she totally sucks at.

And who cares about wasting Bronze weapons with Donny? Bronze weapons suck. That's a major reason not to reclass in this game. Don't even say you can forge them because I'd rather forge better weapons.

Wouldn't infinite reclass also need grinding?

What.

[Rewjeo]

I'm speaking from a gameplay perspective about a gameplay mechanic.

Less likely to be entirely outclassed? Go tell that to Matthis, who wishes he could at least have his horse and dual-weapon access as advantages compared to most of the cast, but they can all do the same. The less unique characteristics characters have, the easier it is for them to be outclassed.

Matthis would still suck if most of the cast didn't have access to cavalier. Gilliam would be a whole lot better if I could make him basically any other class.

The reclass system dulls stats/growth differences. Let's look at Rody and Draug in FE12. On the surface, Draug has +5 to his base Def and +15% to his growth. With the class modifiers removed, Draug has just +1 to his base Def and an identical growth. They have access to the same classes, and in those same classes, the Def that would have been a significant difference with no reclassing or restricted reclassing becomes no difference between them at all.

That's not the fault of the system itself, though. IS could have made Rody and Draug's defense more different, but they didn't. If that happened in any other game-FE13 included-it would still be a problem.

I am quite visibly not making that assumption, as if I were I would still oppose FE13's reclass system, but I do not. My standpoint is that increased relevant unit diversity is almost always better. Flexibility is nice when it doesn't get in the way of that: FE13's flexibility means more unit diversity, while FE11/12's flexibility means less.

Diversity only matters if it's worth using. Some people want diversity in their teams, which FE11/12 make easier than other games, by the way, but a lot of people don't like diversity for the sake of diversity. Limiting my options in one way for the sake of adding options I'll never use in another way doesn't sound fun to me.

They are a unique set of options to him: he could not become a Swordmaster or Warrior or Dark Knight if he wished; those stay as the territory of other characters. Furthermore, all of the options he retains stay restricted in use compared to his base class, so his base class stays important while his options also become significant.

Weapon ranks would be one big thing, I would guess, and that also matters in FE11/12. The big potential I see for base class mattering is the potential to make units unusable as they're stuck sucking for nine levels before getting to be stuck with E rank weapon levels in a better class.

From a gameplay perspective, there isn't a whole lot else.

From a gameplay perspective, characterization doesn't matter. If you care so much about character, you might want to look to the tons of dialogue IS gave the units specifically for the sake of developing characteres.

But, let's see what Viole has available to him. Hmm, he can use swords, axes, bows, lances, magic, and staves and he can ride dragons, horses, and griffons. Jagen can use swords, axes, lances, bows, magic, and staves and he can ride dragons and horses. It looks like IS can mess up things with this system just like they can with the FE11/12 system!

[Only My Unit]

Vengeance is not worth the cost of having Tiamo spend 4 levels of her existence in a class she totally sucks at.

And who cares about wasting Bronze weapons with Donny? Bronze weapons suck. That's a major reason not to reclass in this game. Don't even say you can forge them because I'd rather forge better weapons.

What.

Bronze weapons are mad cheap. Forging anything above that is several times the cost of that anyways. It could ultimately save money for those higher level forges. And Vengeance is just an option, and you can stick to your opinion on that one (not suggesting that you couldn't, but you know what I mean).

And I think I had a stupid moment there with the reclass comment, since there would be a ton of options available that retained weapon ranks.

Edit: @Rewjeo: In Viole's case, horses are a natural promotion option, Dragons are because of his relationship with Serge, with griffons for whatever reason being tied to dragons in this game, and magic is for retaining range.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Only My Unit

[Rewjeo]

If horses are normal, then people being able to hop on horses in FE11/12 isn't a problem. Knowing someone who can do something (especially something as presumably complex as flying a dragon in a combat situation) does nothing to suggest that you can do it. Or can you play every instrument that anyone you know can play? "Retaining range" is hardly a reason to for his character to know magic.

[Only My Unit]

This is a video game, so things won't make much sense in some areas. Though I must admit, the concept those on my side of the discussion are trying to make is pretty hard to explain fully.

For the range argument,nearly everyone can reclass to something with bows or tomes, and all initial bow or tome users can swap to the opposite stat using type except Miriel, who takes Troubador and Dark Mage and Inverse, who has Dark Mage and Dracoknight.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Only My Unit

[NeonZ]

Wouldn't infinite reclass also need grinding? Also, if you're concerned about everybody being able to be every class, why don't you just play through the game with a bunch of My Unit and Spotpass and DLC characters (which are all nearly the same thing)?

He's talking about FE11/12 infinite reclassing, where you just choose an option before the level starts that the character change classes freely and at will, without having their level reset or using promotion items.

Personally, while I liked FE 12, I thought the reclass system was a big blemish on the game - and one of the misteps in FE 11's "update". FE 13 seems to have a method for side changes that fits much more with what Fire Emblem actually should be. The first tier side changes can be problematic sometimes, I guess, but that isn't really true for the promoted ones which usually have more than one weapon available.

That's not the fault of the system itself, though. IS could have made Rody and Draug's defense more different, but they didn't. If that happened in any other game-FE13 included-it would still be a problem.

That IS the fault of the system though. Due to adding base classes' stats and growths to the base characters' stats, often there were cases in FE 11/12 where characters who should have been particularly good at some stat were barely average at beast, in order to avoid disproportional large stat differences between characters - and also due to the 20 stat cap limitation for first tier classes.

If horses are normal, then people being able to hop on horses in FE11/12 isn't a problem. Knowing someone who can do something (especially something as presumably complex as flying a dragon in a combat situation) does nothing to suggest that you can do it. Or can you play every instrument that anyone you know can play? "Retaining range" is hardly a reason to for his character to know magic.

Your comparison is really biased though. The three promoted mount options are a characteristic of that character here, while the universal free reclassing was... an universal system for everyone, nothing special to Jeigan or anyone else.

Edited June 17, 2012 by NeonZ

[Anouleth]

In FE13, the most feasible reclasses tend to be ones where the character can link the classes by means of shared weapon ranks. Tiamo, for example, would not want to go Pegasus Knight --> Dark Mage. But she might want to go Pegasus Knight --> Dark Pegasus --> Dark Knight, after training with tomes as a secondary weapon as a Dark Pegasus.

Except that unless you have her use tomes 100% of the time, she will be horrible. Tiamo has some of the lowest magic in the game and neither Dark Pegasus or Dark Knight even have particularly good magic stats to back that up.

Or, to put it another way, Tiamo has a choice between being, what, a 10/15/1 Falcon Knight with 21STR/27SPD and probably A Lances, or being a 10/15/1 Dark Knight with 11MAG/21SPD and maybe C Tomes or whatever (and E Swords lol).

This leaves some reclasses as not very feasible, and that's okay. Vake can be a Thief, but he won't make a very good Thief, and needs to train as a Thief to become competent at it rather than picking it up in an instant. Meanwhile, you have to be wary of those consequences if you would choose to make him a Thief. This is all very sensible, and is exactly how reclassing ought to be handled.

So it's a good thing that certain reclass paths are completely unviable for anything other than grinding?

He's talking about FE11/12 infinite reclassing, where you just choose an option before the level starts that the character change classes freely and at will, without having their level reset or using promotion items.

Personally, while I liked FE 12, I thought the reclass system was a big blemish on the game - and one of the misteps in FE 11's "update". FE 13 seems to have a method for side changes that fits much more with what Fire Emblem actually should be. The first tier side changes can be problematic sometimes, I guess, but that isn't really true for the promoted ones which usually have more than one weapon available.

The biggest problem is how permanent it is. You can't really pick and choose classes like in FE12 to suit the situation. This means that niche, situational classes (like Sniper) are no longer useful.

Your comparison is really biased though. The three promoted mount options are a characteristic of that character here, while the universal free reclassing was... an universal system for everyone, nothing special to Jeigan or anyone else.

Not really. Jeigan is the only character that can access Dracoknight and Paladin early on. That's something special to him. It's just that it's a product of his stats and promoted status and weapon rank rather than declared by fiat by Intelligent Systems that other characters can't be Dracoknight or Paladin.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Anouleth

[BBM]

So it's a good thing that certain reclass paths are completely unviable for anything other than grinding?

This was just as true in FE11/FE12 though. A Mercenary would still have E Tomes if he reclassed to a Mage.

[NeonZ]

Not really. Jeigan is the only character that can access Dracoknight and Paladin early on. That's something special to him. It's just that it's a product of his stats and promoted status and weapon rank rather than declared by fiat by Intelligent Systems that other characters can't be Dracoknight or Paladin.

Nothing unique to Jeigan came out of the reclass system though. His early game usefulness - early game Paladin, power and long movement, would still be there even if the reclass system weren't there. The extra classes sets "declared by fiat by IS" actually are new unique points for each character - an addition to Fire Emblem's usual system, rather than something replacing it, which is what FE 11/12's system effectively did.

Now, some of these "unique" points don't look practical in a standard run, especially in higher difficulties, and the archer/sniper set seems to be one of the biggest examples (but not so much Bow Knight though, which is also tied to it), but I don't think just dumping the concept of each character having defined classes is the answer. Sniper and Swordmaster seem to suffer in this game because IS considers their exclusive weapons big enough advantages, apparently, although that seems kind of dubious, especially considering how they don't have the best weapons in the game - and the class that can wield those weapons didn't get shafted like them.

Besides, FE11/12 system still had useless class for many characters, and more of them due to their free availability to everyone. It also made many characters utterly useless. In the original games, you could still pick some of the weaker representatives of each class if you wanted to deploy more of them at once for a specific mission, but FE 11/12's system completely killed that (although, the higher enemy stats in the new difficulty levels also would hurt that anyway)... If you want to deploy more of some class, you just reclass your main units instantly and with no repercussions.

Edited June 17, 2012 by NeonZ

[Anouleth]

This was just as true in FE11/FE12 though. A Mercenary would still have E Tomes if he reclassed to a Mage.

If one out of 12 classes are unviable, it doesn't matter so much since you still have 11 more. But if you're Richt or someone and your choices are Mage/Cavalier/Archer, wtf are you supposed to do?

[Emperor Hardin]

If one out of 12 classes are unviable, it doesn't matter so much since you still have 11 more. But if you're Richt or someone and your choices are Mage/Cavalier/Archer, wtf are you supposed to do?

Discipline from the Cavalier class could help Richt. Though I agree Richt doesn't have the best class changing options.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Emperor Hardin

[Othin]

Except that unless you have her use tomes 100% of the time, she will be horrible. Tiamo has some of the lowest magic in the game and neither Dark Pegasus or Dark Knight even have particularly good magic stats to back that up.

Or, to put it another way, Tiamo has a choice between being, what, a 10/15/1 Falcon Knight with 21STR/27SPD and probably A Lances, or being a 10/15/1 Dark Knight with 11MAG/21SPD and maybe C Tomes or whatever (and E Swords lol).

So it's a good thing that certain reclass paths are completely unviable for anything other than grinding?

Yeah, it is. It means Tiamo can access Mercenary and Dark Mage when grinding or otherwise if you really want to, but her practical ingame use is still constrained and does not infringe on those of other characters.

The biggest problem is how permanent it is. You can't really pick and choose classes like in FE12 to suit the situation. This means that niche, situational classes (like Sniper) are no longer useful.

oh no decisions matter waaaaah

Not really. Jeigan is the only character that can access Dracoknight and Paladin early on. That's something special to him. It's just that it's a product of his stats and promoted status and weapon rank rather than declared by fiat by Intelligent Systems that other characters can't be Dracoknight or Paladin.

In comparison, Frederick can't access Dragonmaster and Paladin "early on" by that definition. When he can access them, Soiree could be a Paladin or a Dracoknight, but not a Dragonmaster. Meanwhile Sol cannot be a Dracoknight, but unlike Frederick, can become a damn good Myrmidon. As you can see, diversity increases.

Meanwhile in FE12 anyone who can get a decent lance or axe rank anytime after promoting has just as much of a claim to the Dracoknight class as anyone else, and so diversity decreases.

---

dondon don't wait around for an answer I'm not arguing with three people at once and Anouleth is more fun

Edited June 17, 2012 by Othin

[BBM]

If one out of 12 classes are unviable, it doesn't matter so much since you still have 11 more. But if you're Richt or someone and your choices are Mage/Cavalier/Archer, wtf are you supposed to do?

Again, that's not the fault of the system as much as it is the fault of which classes he was given. If his choices were like Mage/Priest/Dark Mage, then?

Both systems have their faults. FE11/FE12's system makes skills as they are in this game impossible to implement, and this game's system makes it much easier for some characters to get screwed with their reclass choices. My preferred system would be unlimited reclass choices but with reclass available only at level 10 like it is here, and with level resetting upon reclass. And with skills as they are here. But probably with the FE11/FE12 way of at least giving minimum D ranks to promoted classes. It makes the choice of reclassing actually important.

Also, if one character has bad reclass options, it's also possible to see that as a way in which that character is inferior, just as with base stats, growths, availability, etc.

Edited June 17, 2012 by BigBangMeteor

[Anouleth]

Nothing unique to Jeigan came out of the reclass system though. His early game usefulness - early game Paladin, power and long movement, would still be there even if there reclass system weren't there.

The reclass system expands this usefulness by giving him access to Dracoknight. FE12 is even better, giving Arran the options of General or even SM.

The extra classes sets "declared by fiat by IS" actually are new unique points for each character - an addition to Fire Emblem's usual system, rather than something replacing it, which is what FE 11/12's system effectively did.

Yeah, we get it. Characters in this game have an extra couple of bytes besides their name. However, in practice, characters in FE12 did not have unlimited reclass.

Now, some of these "unique" points don't look practical in a standard run, especially in higher difficulties, and the archer/sniper set seems to be one of the biggest examples (but not so much Bow Knight though, which is also tied to it), but I don't think just dumping the concept of each character having defined classes is the answer.

Perhaps I should make my position clear: I think that the different class change systems have positives and negatives. And clearly this system is more popular so I can't really say it's a bad direction to go in.

Besides, FE11/12 system still had useless class for many characters, and more of them due to their free availability to everyone.

Even if half your classes are useful and half are useless, if you have 12 classes to pick from to begin with you still have a lot of potential for interesting choices.

It also made many characters utterly useless.

An eternal and immutable constant in Fire Emblem.

In the original games, you could still pick some of the weaker representatives of each class if you wanted to deploy more of them at once for a specific mission, but FE 11/12's system completely killed that (although, the higher enemy stats in the new difficulty levels also would hurt that anyway)... If you want to deploy more of some class, you just reclass your main units instantly and with no repercussions.

You always have the choice to shoot yourself in the foot and use shitty characters. Bors and Wendy suck even in a game where all the Generals suck. And Lance and Alan are great even in a game where you have an abundance of Paladins.

[Othin]

Okay, I think it's becoming apparent that there are two major components of the FE13 system:

-Characters need to "promote" to change classes using Change Seals

-Characters have limited reclass sets

To me, the first of the two is the real key here, since it allows increased flexibility of reclass without crushing unit diversity. The second of the two is a less major consideration that helps improve unit diversity as well, but I would say the first is far more important here, and personally, I'd rather focus on that one. The second just isn't that interesting, and the first was the basis for my making the statement that started this fun anyway.

There's also the matter of reclassing further being constrained by characters starting at Bronze, which I do favor as well, but that's not even quite part of the system at all as much as its implementation.

So with all of this in mind, I say the following as the primary point I will be arguing throughout the remainder of this discussion:

Change Seals and their function of forcing characters to "promote" to a different class are key to implementing reclassing in a way that does not cripple unit diversity.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Othin

[Rewjeo]

It also made many characters utterly useless.

It's not like any FE game ever, especially one that has over 70 characters distributed between roughly a dozen clear classes, has had redundant units for reasons other than reclass. Obviously you use all five Trueblades in RD.

Most of the units in FE history are useless and redundant. At least it's harder to be unusable in FE11/12, ignoring the extreme difficulties.

I don't think FE13's system is bad at all, I just really disagree that it's far and above better than the free reclass.

[Only My Unit]

Again, that's not the fault of the system as much as it is the fault of which classes he was given. If his choices were like Mage/Priest/Dark Mage, then?

Libera could use that extra accuracy from Dark Mage to be better with axes as a Battle Priest, since they're the most inaccurate physical weapon. Richt... is sucky for an Archer choice, unless you want the +2 Skill for Luna, which would require more reclass training, which in turn sucks if you don't feel like investing in him.

[Anouleth]

Yeah, it is. It means Tiamo can access Mercenary and Dark Mage when grinding or otherwise if you really want to, but her practical ingame use is still constrained and does not infringe on those of other characters.

And the practical ingame use in FE12 isn't constrained? Rody can reclass to Dark Mage and Mercenary if you're grinding or being cute or whatever, and that doesn't infringe on the niches of units such as Luke who have viable sword rank. It's true that it's less constrained than FE13,

oh no decisions matter waaaaah

Well, I'm convinced.

In comparison, Frederick can't access Dragonmaster and Paladin "early on" by that definition. When he can access them, Soiree could be a Paladin or a Dracoknight, but not a Dragonmaster. Meanwhile Sol cannot be a Dracoknight, but unlike Frederick, can become a damn good Myrmidon. As you can see, diversity increases.

And in terms of practical use, Arran is not really a viable SM in many chapters because you need his Silver Lance and 10 move, while Luke cannot be a Dracoknight. How are Luke and Arran qualitatively different to Sol and Frederick?

Meanwhile in FE12 anyone who can get a decent lance or axe rank anytime after promoting has just as much of a claim to the Dracoknight class as anyone else, and so diversity decreases.

I don't think that anyone is denying that FE13 has more diversity among characters. However, FE12 still does have diversity, and from a practical point of view, reclassing is not unlimited.

dondon don't wait around for an answer I'm not arguing with three people at once and Anouleth is more fun

You mean that you want to argue against the person that hasn't actually played FE12 and doesn't particularly like the class change system in it either.

Okay, I think it's becoming apparent that there are two major components of the FE13 system:

-Characters need to "promote" to change classes using Change Seals

-Characters have limited reclass sets

To me, the first of the two is the real key here, since it allows increased flexibility of reclass without crushing unit diversity. The second of the two is a less major consideration that helps improve unit diversity as well, but I would say the first is far more important here, and personally, I'd rather focus on that one. The second just isn't that interesting, and the first was the basis for my making the statement that started this fun anyway.

There's also the matter of reclassing further being constrained by characters starting at Bronze, which I do favor as well, but that's not even quite part of the system at all as much as its implementation.

So with all of this in mind, I say the following as the primary point I will be arguing throughout the remainder of this discussion:

Change Seals and their function of forcing characters to "promote" to a different class are key to implementing reclassing in a way that does not cripple unit diversity.

I think that having to start again from level 1 is also a constraining factor since it delays promotion.

I haven't played FE13, so I couldn't say for sure, but I was led to believe that change proofs were fairly common.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Anouleth

[Cammy white]

am i the only one here that does not like units with animals and prefer to fight in their own except pegasus knights

[Only My Unit]

@Ano: Yep. So are Master Seals. So once you get the skill at level 10 you can go straight on to the promoted class or switch over to another withh a Class Change Seal. Furthermore, more exp is gained at a faster rate by using Master Seals, since they deal with cumulative level exp drain.

@Cammy: Yeah, unmounted units are cool, but I like the Seth, Haar, Oscsar, Franz and Titania every once and a while.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Only My Unit

[Monky_V]

am i the only one here that does not like units with animals and prefer to fight in their own except pegasus knights

I don't like them either, but I always have at least one.

[Samias]

I never liked the way Shadow Dragon handled reclassing. Since certain classes are always favoured, it basically meant making a homogenous army of units with the best performance in that class. While the weapon ranks in FE13 aren't appealing and certain characters perform well only in their original class, I like the idea of level resets to give choices more weight. It also means you have less worrying about early promotion when you need the bases, but are given a chance to reclass later. If anything the game encourages early promotion.

[Dark Nocturne]

now THIS is a debate i would watch on tv..i think the reason i like FE13's reclassing better is the skill system that just wouldnt work if it still used FE11-12's system. is my opinion on this. and you never know, when the game comes to america they may change a few class set options...cough(myrmidon for serge)