Airship Canon Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 These two statements seem to present a contradiction. It's abuse, not grinding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Book of Ereshkigal Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) It's abuse, not grinding. ...Um. They're the same thing(in this context). In previous FEs the only way to grind is with abuse. But anyway, I'm pretty sure he meant that he can't grind on the skirmishes in Lunatic, which he indeed can't. Edited March 11, 2014 by L95 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tables Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 It's abuse, not grinding. Abuse is a form of grinding. It's engaging in a mindless and repetitive task for the sole purpose of gaining EXP. That's pretty much the exact description of grinding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Abuse doesn't raise the number of maps you've played, grinding does. At least, that's how I see the difference. And it's a somewhat important distinction because if there's a limit on what you can do within a map to have it count as grinding or not, it becomes very hairy to define a no-grind run that isn't either an LTC, a Speedrun or a Pacifist run. And then grinding can also be divided into Risen, Spotpass and DLC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) Abuse doesn't raise the number of maps you've played, grinding does. At least, that's how I see the difference. And it's a somewhat important distinction because if there's a limit on what you can do within a map to have it count as grinding or not, it becomes very hairy to define a no-grind run that isn't either an LTC, a Speedrun or a Pacifist run. And then grinding can also be divided into Risen, Spotpass and DLC. That's your own personal defintion. Speaking in general, grinding is a repetative task that gains you what you want/need... a character(s) that is better equipped than what the game initially hands you with the resources that you currently have. Your "no-grind" runs dancing Olivia repeatedly in one map, pretty much isn't "standard". Grinding has been synonymous with "abuse" in this community for the longest time... Only Awakening mainstreamed "grinding" because of the fact that you can abuse different maps over and over and over again. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but your statement of dividing grinding into separate categories is only justifying your own personal definition to not get lumped in with those people who do grind with repeatable DLC maps. You are grinding. You're simply limiting it to one specific unit. "Oh noooo, I'm in a no reclass run. Oh! But Olivia's a dancer and her bases are bad. I'll just make this one exception..." ...pretty much that. And I don't care if it happens to be a strawman. Do what you feel like. You can grind. You can not grind. But don't twist around definitions to be something "in between" and state you are purely doing the latter. Edited March 11, 2014 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) If I was just talking about Olivia I'd call it dance spam, not abuse in general. I'm also talking about things like staff spam, exp funneling, killing reinforcements, etc- anything you can do within a map to squeeze out more exp. -And I do use DLC maps- some of the time, which is why I feel like drawing a distinction. Edited March 11, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato123 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I know that dance-spamming is grinding, I just meant that I wouldn't want to do that again, and don't have DLC to make grinding easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I know that dance-spamming is grinding, I just meant that I wouldn't want to do that again, and don't have DLC to make grinding easier. Well... there's really no way to make it easier. Logbook MUs are pretty much the only way for you to not go through hell with spotpass 1 exp grinding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tables Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Abuse doesn't raise the number of maps you've played, grinding does. At least, that's how I see the difference. And it's a somewhat important distinction because if there's a limit on what you can do within a map to have it count as grinding or not, it becomes very hairy to define a no-grind run that isn't either an LTC, a Speedrun or a Pacifist run. And then grinding can also be divided into Risen, Spotpass and DLC. You're right, there is no big black line between grinding and not grinding. Dancing repeatedly is absolutely, without a shadow of doubt, grinding though. It's performing a repetitive and monotonous task whose sole goal is to boost a character's stats. Other things can kind of be a grey area. Like... If I was just talking about Olivia I'd call it dance spam, not abuse in general. I'm also talking about things like staff spam, exp funneling, killing reinforcements, etc- anything you can do within a map to squeeze out more exp. -And I do use DLC maps- some of the time, which is why I feel like drawing a distinction. The rest of the thins you said are all limited resources, which I think would usually make them not grinding. No maps have infinite reinforcements except maybe Endgame, as far as I'm aware, so if you decided to kill all the reinforcements, I don't think that would be grinding, but it'd definitely on the border if you could have moved on and instead stuck around for a dozen turns to fight. Spamming staves, well they're a limited resource and assuming you just mean healing every turn and not waiting around after the chapter is 'over', I don't think that's grinding. If you did something like taking the Supreme Emblem, selling it and buying huge amounts of Rescue staves from spotpass teams in order to give Lissa 60 levels before chapter 4, then yeah that'd be grinding. I agree there's different levels of grinding, but things like dancing for 200 turns is unquestionably a form of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato123 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Here is the definition from Wikipedia: Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. Spamming staves is grinding, because it fits in with that description. Healing all your allies to full HP before you seize is grinding, and so is abusing the boss until their weapon breaks and healing all your allies. The latter is just doing more grinding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tables Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Here is the definition from Wikipedia: Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. Spamming staves is grinding, because it fits in with that description. Healing all your allies to full HP before you seize is grinding, and so is abusing the boss until their weapon breaks and healing all your allies. The latter is just doing more grinding. Please explain how the bold fits into the description you just stated. Doing something a single time hardly seems like a repetitive task to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato123 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Because you don't have to heal everyone to full before you seize. And it is a repeated task because you're healing your entire team, possibly multiple times if your healer has a bad staff/magic stat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tables Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Oh, right, you mean as in doing it over multiple turns. Yeah I agree then. I thought you meant just using healers to cap out HP on the turn you sieze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) He actually dance spammed to level her up... I probably missed that point. But still, I'm not enthusiastic about marrying Chrom to someone who pretty much NEEDS to be dance spammed to get anywhere with the offspring's stats, much less on Lunatic and Lunatic+ (and even then, she'd only have any major impact of the crap Lucina gets a lot of on her own anyhow in all likelihood), given that her bases are as good as those of units who joined in the freaking PROLOGUE... Edited March 11, 2014 by Levant Caprice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tables Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Ehh, the Lucina you get from an untrained Olivia really isn't that terrible anyway, due to some oddities in child base stat inheritence I can't remember the exact details of. She'd be about as good as the Lucina I had on my last Lunatic run, who I was able to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 If you did something like taking the Supreme Emblem, selling it and buying huge amounts of Rescue staves from spotpass teams in order to give Lissa 60 levels before chapter 4, then yeah that'd be grinding. I agree there's different levels of grinding, but things like dancing for 200 turns is unquestionably a form of it. Except you can't buy Rescue Staves from Spotpass. You'd either need to Streetpass yourself 20 times or make do with heal staves (an infinite source of damage can come from a Revenant's Blighted Claws, or breaking a Counter enemy's weapon on a fort and hitting it with Falchion over and over). The thing about dancing Olivia is that it's completely unnecessary and there's no reason to do it. Even if you get to Lv.30, reclass to Dark Flier, and give her every single enemy in Cht.12 and 13, she won't get Galeforce in time to pass it to Lucina, so the only reason you'd do it is for stats. But her stats don't help Lucina that much- she can get well off the ground in Cht.14 even with a Maiden mother thanks to having a good, ready support (Avatar), an HP-restoring proc, and the ability to reclass into a Cav right off the bat which gives her Def and is great for her weapon ranks. Low Str isn't a problem thanks to her 12-mt unbreaking prf sword, and she effectively has an infinite use Concoction in case she does take too much damage. Combine that with a very good turtling spot in Cht.14 and dance spam doesn't make a difference. I suppose it is more grindey than exp funneling though, if only because the time:payoff is so bad and it can be done infinitely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tables Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Except you can't buy Rescue Staves from Spotpass. You'd either need to Streetpass yourself 20 times or make do with heal staves Oh, you can't? Huh. I thought just about everything was sold by at least one Spotpass team. Then again I avoid using them on my standard playthroughs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) The big ones that they don't sell are Rescue and Second Seals, but there's enough out there that you could fill a whole Streetpass team with stuff you can't buy from Spotpass but isn't banned. However everything they don't sell can either be obtained from Merchants or Event Tiles, so if you absolutely must have something early it's still possible to get it that way. Though I definitely would count farming more than two Merchants for a specific item as grinding... Edited March 11, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Here's the "one thing" that "I just want to know": is there any point whatsoever to an argument about what "grinding" means? Is the result of this thread's discussion a factor for the definition of the word in the OED? Is there a governing organization that handles videogame terminology accreditation? Does the loser have to leave town in disgrace? I have always viewed the word "grinding" -- as it pertains to videogames -- to be a useful shorthand way to describe a concept, like "walling" or "weakening". If it fails to get the point across, or there is some sort of confusion or dispute, then I'll smash the red alert button, escalate to DEFCON 1, draw my sword and to go to war use a different goddamned word. In this particular situation, I tend to draw a distinction between various kinds of abuse (dance, staff, water, etc) and "grinding" (repeating DLC, Risen fights, boxes), because the English language is cool like that and lets us be as precise as we need to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Why do people say Mercenary is a good reclass for Lunatic? I'd assume otherwise with the swordlock and the fact that odds are you might not have bothered with sword rank... and it doesn't help that Levin Swords, in addition to being C rank, are rare. (While you CAN buy tham from Spotpass, they're 1600 gold, which is a lot early on) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Jesus christ I can't believe how long the grinding VS abuse discussion went on. Just move on, you guys, seriously. I would like to know what is/are a good class/some good classes for Gaius!Noire. I know Sniper is pretty unimaginative, but she gets Pass and Counter from Gaius at least, for what that's worth. Is it better to go the Magic route with her, like a pegasus-class or something? BK's bowbreaker would work pretty well for that. Edited March 13, 2014 by BANRYU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Dynamite Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Lunatic + vs Lunatic. Is the only difference the completely OP skills enemies will have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato123 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Lunatic + vs Lunatic. Is the only difference the completely OP skills enemies will have? Yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Why do people say Mercenary is a good reclass for Lunatic? I'd assume otherwise with the swordlock and the fact that odds are you might not have bothered with sword rank... and it doesn't help that Levin Swords, in addition to being C rank, are rare. (While you CAN buy tham from Spotpass, they're 1600 gold, which is a lot early on) It's a good reclass for Avatar, who will certainly have the rank for it. Merc offers Patience and Armsthrift in addition to the Levin Sword bit. Easy promo to Hero. And if you're going Lunatic+: Bow Knight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 It's a good reclass for Avatar, who will certainly have the rank for it. Merc offers Patience and Armsthrift in addition to the Levin Sword bit. Easy promo to Hero. And if you're going Lunatic+: Bow Knight. The problem I have is, where am I getting the weapon exp needed to get C swords from? Dual Strikes that are unreliable at that point in the game? Avatar needs 30 swings of a sword to get to C rank, and the first Arms Scroll ain't until paralogue 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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