MacLovin Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Lowen can also survive more shit later on. Also, resident Lowen fanboy-soooo. I love how a year ago, Lowen was considered the worst cavvy and now he's considered the best. Next, I guess it'd be funny if Dorcas turns out to be the best hero-crest user Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Feeding Erk kills that could go to people like Lowen, Kent/Sain, Florina, etc. does not sound as cost-free as you make it out to seem. Also you'd have to have a pretty great team to make Lucius cost turns in Marcusless. He doesn't need kill feeding much to get up to ORKO range. He can get the 2 soldier kills at the back in chapter 14 while your non marcus units rush down, and at base he ORKOes the 2 soldiers and the knight right next to his starting position. Most of his training comes from 15, and by that point the only other dudes who need training badly are Dorcas (if you want to earlypromote him), Eliwood, Rebecca (to get her out of her rut somewhat) and Hector. And Hector is alright as it is coming into Chapter 15 at around level 7ish. After Chapter 15 he doesn't need much help against the majority of enemies, since he's got enough levels down with his decent speed and hitting res that he ORKOes most of the map, missing the swordies at the start, Raven, Nomads and maybe the shamans, who he should be avoiding anyway. He only needs to be level 6 to do this and with those 3 chapters of training it's definitely doable. Luicus can cost a turn to recruit because we have to haul Priscilla over (who's assumed undrafted), to get Raven, who tends to get in the way of Hector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Define "decent Speed" in terms of Lowen. Is it his average at level 6? Remember that his Speed growth is a shade better than garbage, so the odds of him having no Speed (or Strength/Skill) growth for four levels is about 24%. Can he still function at that level at base? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Lowen can also survive more shit later on. Also, resident Lowen fanboy-soooo. I love how a year ago, Lowen was considered the worst cavvy and now he's considered the best. Next, I guess it'd be funny if Dorcas turns out to be the best hero-crest user Well, generally when people talk about which Cavalier is the best, they talk about HHM, where Lowen's cruddy offensive stats catch up to him fairly soon. In HNM the enemies are piss easy though, so his offensive stats being just barely adequate is good enough. Also, I've never had Raven get in the way of Hector, even when I have neither Priscilla nor Raven drafted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) EHM Lowen is better too!. LOL Energy Ring, Draco, and Steel Sword on him. Also, I'd say that Lowen is the best cavvy and was underrated by many. Edited October 23, 2012 by Lowen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) Well, there are these things to consider: 1. Lowen is the most prone to RNG screwage with his lowish growths. 2. He can realistically get 10-12 levels before Sain/Kent show up. Which puts him at around: Level 12 HP 32 Str 10 Skl 8 Spd 10 Lck 8 Def 11 Res 3 Sword C Lance C Base Sain has: Level 4 HP 22 Str 9 Skl 5 Spd 7 Lck 5 Def 7 Res 0 Sword D Lance D Lowen wins by 10HP, 1Str, 3Skl, 3 Spd, 3Lck, 4Def, 3Res and even weapon ranks. Base Kent: Level 5 HP 23 Str 8 Skl 7 Spd 8 Lck 4 Def 6 Res 1 Sword D Lance D Lowen beats Kent by 9HP, 2Str, ties in skl, 2spd, 4Lck, 5Def, 2Res and weapon ranks again. It's true that these 2 catch up real quick thanks to their growths, but Lowen has the upper hand in Chapter 17 and can stay functional for quite a while. He can promote as quickly as Chapter 17x. Assuming he gets 3 levels in Chapter 17, we're looking at: Level 15/1 Lowen HP 36.7 Str 11.9 Skl 9.9 Spd 11.9 Lck 9.5 Def 14.2 Res 4.9 This is not very impressive, but considering he has 8 move before Sain/Kent and can function well enough due to how bad the HNM enemies are, it probably is. The only notable advantage Sain/Kent have is in chapter 24, where stats actually matter if you are going for a 1 turn. (You need 16Str + a Spear to 2HKO Lloyd which is easy for Kent/Sain/Heath and possibly Florina and Fiora depending on if they get Genesis or not. Florina needs to be 20/5 on average, Fiora needs to be 20/6 on average) So, I'm convinced Lowen is better than the other 2 cavaliers. Not by that much though. He saves a turn in 13 getting the village with no need to draft any other units there, saves a turn in 17 or 2 (2 is assuming Hector just walks every turn with no assistance on the boss), has more durability in 17x and can promote earlier than the other 2. On average, he might have trouble 2HKO'ing Uhai unlike the other 2 though and there are other disadvantages later on that involve bosskilling. Edited October 23, 2012 by PKL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Well, just because Lowen is there when the Dracoshield and Energy Ring are first obtained doesn't mean that he is entitled to them. And besides, Lowen hardly needs a Dracoshield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) I was theorycrafting a bit. And came to the conclusion that an average Sain would need to be 12/1 to be able to kill Uhai in 1 PP + EP. How feasible is this? 11/1 puts him in 2HKO range with Horseslayer, but he gets doubled by uhai so he needs that extra point of spd. Lowen and Kent don't have any hope of 2HKO'ing Uhai on their own btw. Edited October 23, 2012 by PKL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 What about killing edge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) Sain loses 0.8 on his averages due to his Hector mode bases being worse, so he'd need at least one more level. Too lazy to calc it though. Killing Edge is too weak. Edited October 23, 2012 by General Horace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 I already took that in account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 ? Level 9 unpromoted Sain could kill Uhai with a hit + crit using Killing Edge, 49% chance. Base Sain could kill Uhai with two crits, but that's only 8% chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) I already took that in account. Then your numbers are wrong. He needs 15 Str for the 2HKO, which he gets at 13/1. and sain has 45 hit with the KE at the numbers provided above, and needs a crit and two hits sooo And i've never had a Kent that has been able to kill Uhai before. Edited October 23, 2012 by General Horace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 You sure about 15 str? Also, everyone has shitty hit on Uhai anyway lol. And is there any other Killing Edge other than Guy's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 None other than Guy's. And is Sain can kill with the Killing Edge, Lowen can probably too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 So everyone is boned against Uhai on average lol. Sain/Kent's only notable advantage is Lloyd then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 and sain has 45 hit with the KE at the numbers provided above, and needs a crit and two hits sooo He's on a forest? OK, 11 unpromoted for the crit + hit. But it's a moot point because I forgot to take into account accuracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) So everyone is boned against Uhai on average lol. Sain/Kent's only notable advantage is Lloyd then. Being able to ORKO enemies bulkier than your average archer with 1-2 range weapons seems like a pretty good advantage to me. Heck, Lowen can't even double late game myrms at high levels, what a pansy. Edited October 23, 2012 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintessence Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) Question: Why regular drafts skip Lyn Mode? Edit Also: Why tier lists don't assume Lyn Mode on unit analysis? Edited October 23, 2012 by Quintessence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Because Lyn Mode is ass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintessence Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Because Lyn Mode is ass X'{ I know it's optional, crappy...but, imo Lyn Mode should be forced on regular drafts and brought to analysis on draft tier lists. I mean, a game begins on Prologue, not on Chapter 11 lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) No, it would make the game too easy and Florina would actually be autowin. Same with Kent/Sain Edited October 24, 2012 by PKL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 How could Florina/Kent/Sain all be autowin? You couldn't get all three. I guess it would suck for whoever's fourth and fifth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) That's what I meant. 4th and 5th dont get any gamebreaking units in Lyn Mode drafts. I guess that you could make a Lyn Mode Draft Tier List if you want Quint. Edited October 24, 2012 by PKL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 How about Oswin as an Uhai killer? In Lockstep, Horace had our promoted Oswin 2HKO Uhai with a Silver Lance in HHM. And he 5-turned it too, with a team of Oswin/Hector/Eliwood/Dart/Rebecca/Wil/Raven/Priscilla. It's a lot of units, but also HHM, and it's hardly a great team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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