How many players actually care about turn count?

[Thor Odinson]

Then why did you even make that generalisation in the first place

If you don't think it's the whole group don't target the goddamn whole group

Edit: Goddamn ninja'd

Edited October 7, 2012 by Zhuge Liang

[RJWalker]

My intention was not to target the whole group and posts make that clear. However, the tier lists breed such undesirable people. Their obsession is my only complaint. I have no problem against those who care about tiers. Ido have a problem with those who claim that playing for efficiency is the only way to play. Providing examples is not an easy task when the sources come from various places. However, no one can deny that such people exist and are very vocal.

I will say that tier lists seem pretty pointless for a game that's not multiplayer heavy.

[peener weener]

Anecdotal evidence is bullshit.

I've never seen the people you're talking about. Therefore they do not exist.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Its very easy to construe a tier discussion and those who engage in it (very passionately) as Stop Having Fun Guys. This forum went through that phase (oh come on, dont deny it!) for awhile but most of the veteran players wised up and realized being all elitist is kinda stupid. I rarely ever see actual Stop Having Fun Guys here anymore. Usually, the guys in tier list threads are just very seasoned players who tried a bunch of crazy shit with units and lots and lots of hard mode play and figured out who performs the best in certain scenarios. Like Low Turn Count for instance, which is a very popular play style. Draft players try weirder crap with set conditions and units. Even a low tier character can perform well in a draft. Or so im told. I never did one myself. (i so should one of these days....)

Its the nature of a fandom to discuss these sorts of things.

Where have you seen this sort lately? I certainly havent in years. GameFAQs? (lol)

In general, I find normal players far more unreasonable than efficiency players.

You mean like Jeigan haters and stuff? "TITANIA IS UP IN MY TEAM STEALIN' MY EXP!" ;)

Edited October 7, 2012 by Pavi Largo

[Defeatist Elitist]

My intention was not to target the whole group and posts make that clear. However, the tier lists breed such undesirable people. Their obsession is my only complaint. I have no problem against those who care about tiers. Ido have a problem with those who claim that playing for efficiency is the only way to play. Providing examples is not an easy task when the sources come from various places. However, no one can deny that such people exist and are very vocal.

I will say that tier lists seem pretty pointless for a game that's not multiplayer heavy.

[Might Gaine]

I hate Jeigans, but not Oifayes. Jeigan, FE6 Marcus, and Zealot can get permadeath and the army won't lose too much. Oifaye, Seth, and Titania - and, to a lesser extent, FE7 Marcus - don't have the crutch problem to the same degree as the first few, and provided that they aren't overused and thus keeping everyone else low-level due to EXP drought, can continue to be a valuable asset throughout the entire game.

[Espinosa]

I hate Jeigans, but not Oifayes. Jeigan, FE6 Marcus, and Zealot can get permadeath and the army won't lose too much. Oifaye, Seth, and Titania - and, to a lesser extent, FE7 Marcus - don't have the crutch problem to the same degree as the first few, and provided that they aren't overused and thus keeping everyone else low-level due to EXP drought, can continue to be a valuable asset throughout the entire game.

You've tried playing Hard Mode in FE6, right? Because this difficulty is almost impossible without Marcus and Zealot's help for the first dozen or so chapters.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Hey now, dont be hatin' on my man Marcus! He saved my arse in FE6. And hes a total bro in FE7. Sometimes, ill use FE7 Marcus all game. Just because i dont feel like raising a cav to be a pally. Ill sometimes do the same with Isadora who has much worse base strength than Marcus (and not a good growth for it either) just because awesome. Dump a Speedwing on the Marcusnator and watch the world burn.

[Refa]

FE6 Marcus is the best Oifaye. PE means everything, why do you ask.

In all honesty, completing FE11H5 without Jeigan or FE6 HM without Marcus is like, masochistic. Zealot is almost as clutch.

[dondon151]

I mean look at the tier lists. So many interseting characters with great personalities are hated on, bashed and declared useless because using them increases your turncount. It's a shame really.

strawman; it is easier for you to justify your stance by portraying tier list players as being incapable of the ability to appreciate characters for their non-functional traits. in reality, there is no link between appraising units for their character versus appraising units for their ability (although characters portrayed to be spineless, weak, and inexperienced tend to be - guess what - functionally bad).

The real shame is that my interpretation, though it may be worst one, is still the most accurate one.

logical inconsistency; you have made no attempt to back this up, but you assume that you are correct.

No ammount of denial will change the fact that a lot of people do behave i nthe exact same way I described. This is hardly unique to FE. Any game where the fandom creates tier lists will have this.

logical inconsistency; suddenly you concede that not all people (only "a lot of people") behave poorly in order to cover your ass from your previous implied generalization. but speaking of which:

What I would like is for people to stop needlessly bashing characters and even IS for making them and stop hating on people who do like such characters. Yes, it happens. I know such people are the vocal minority but they are still the most vocal aspect and thus they are the defining trait of the part of the fandom that cares about tier lists.

you renege once more on your stance and concede that it is only a "vocal minority" that behaves poorly.

You not being able to read is new maybe?

this ad hominem is argumentatively irrelevant and uncalled for.

[Balcerzak]

FE6 Marcus is the best Oifaye. PE means everything, why do you ask.

In all honesty, completing FE11H5 without Jeigan or FE6 HM without Marcus is like, masochistic. Zealot is almost as clutch.

What PE? Obviously our Marcus' are on average, right?

That said, in my mind the distinction between a Jeigan and an Oifaye is complete nonsense. Jeigan himself lasts a ridiculous portion of the game on H5 riding on his weapon ranks and movement alone.

[Baldrick]

That said, in my mind the distinction between a Jeigan and an Oifaye is complete nonsense. Jeigan himself lasts a ridiculous portion of the game on H5 riding on his weapon ranks and movement alone.

And Oifaye becomes basically useless deep into gen 2, if it wasn't for horses being overpowered and no opportunity cost I wouldn't bother deploying him.

Archetypes aren't really any good for determining the worth of a unit because the balance changes between each game.

[General Horace]

And Oifaye becomes basically useless deep into gen 2, if it wasn't for horses being overpowered and no opportunity cost I wouldn't bother deploying him.

Archetypes aren't really any good for determining the worth of a unit because the balance changes between each game.

I wouldn't call a unit with pursuit critical and access to every non holy sword in the game "basically useless" deep into gen 2, the only thing that really bugs him are status staves, and he's certainly not along there. Sure he's outshined by some stonger units but he's still pretty great.

also obligitory fe6 marcus

[Ema Skye]

I will say that tier lists seem pretty pointless for a game that's not multiplayer heavy.

SF makes these tier lists for the players who want to play the game in as few turns as possible. If you don't want to play for low turns, pay the list no mind. Just let them talk about playing for turns. No harm in that.

I like Marisa. Yeah, she's a bottom tier unit. Yes, using her will raise my turn count. If I'm playing for turns, I'm not going to use Marisa, because the only thing that matters on that playthrough is the turns. But if I'm just playing for the heck of it, of course I'll use Marisa.

[Espinosa]

strawman; it is easier for you to justify your stance by portraying tier list players as being incapable of the ability to appreciate characters for their non-functional traits. in reality, there is no link between appraising units for their character versus appraising units for their ability (although characters portrayed to be spineless, weak, and inexperienced tend to be - guess what - functionally bad).

*ahem*

[RJWalker]

I still fail to see where I said everyone who uses tiers is an elitist douchebag or any similar term. Never once did I say everyone on this site behaves like that. My only complaint is against people who do behave like elitist douchebags.

There is no generalization on my part, only your own biased interpretation.

That said, the opposite, like the type of people(Pre-promote haters) being discussed above, are just as bad.

[Just call me AL]

strawman; it is easier for you to justify your stance by portraying tier list players as being incapable of the ability to appreciate characters for their non-functional traits. in reality, there is no link between appraising units for their character versus appraising units for their ability (although characters portrayed to be spineless, weak, and inexperienced tend to be - guess what - functionally bad)

Florina is functionally bad all of a sudden? I'm guessing how she may be functionally bad is likely from a combat perspective, but... I know I don't like her character much, but come on! Edited October 8, 2012 by Little Al

[Baldrick]

I wouldn't call a unit with pursuit critical and access to every non holy sword in the game "basically useless" deep into gen 2, the only thing that really bugs him are status staves, and he's certainly not along there. Sure he's outshined by some stonger units but he's still pretty great.

Status staves dominate much of the last two chapters, and there's plenty of people who'd want a Restore before him. (Altenna, Shanan, Faval, Leaf, Arthur, Delmud, Nanna. His combat's decent, but not great unless he can get a Hero Sword (and everyone wants a Hero Sword), and he provides nothing support-wise. Maybe useless is a little harsh, but I don't think he pulls his weight later on.

[Might Gaine]

You've tried playing Hard Mode in FE6, right? Because this difficulty is almost impossible without Marcus and Zealot's help for the first dozen or so chapters.

No. No I have not.

Maybe useless is a little harsh, but I don't think he pulls his weight later on.

Oifaye is consistently good. He gets overshadowed by everyone else's awesome.

On the subject of Florina: When I actually use her, she tends to pay me back quite well.

[Florete]

*ahem*

Florina is functionally bad all of a sudden? I'm guessing how she may be functionally bad is likely from a combat perspective, but... I know I don't like her character much, but come on!

"Tend to be." He didn't say all spineless characters suck.

[dondon151]

"Tend to be." He didn't say all spineless characters suck.

of course. there are far more characters who conform to my generalization than who subvert it (hence the wording)

i'm not sure how one can fail at being pedantic, but it just happened twice. then again, the fact that we found exceptions only serves to prove the rule.

Edited October 8, 2012 by dondon151

[CT075]

i'm still waiting on an example of this 'bashing' that he speaks of

[Refa]

i'm still waiting on an example of this 'bashing' that he speaks of

Photographic evidence!

I don't think Ranger Jack Walker is going to supply the evidence, so I took it upon myself to do so.

[Baldrick]

Is that meant to be Horace?

[ZemZem]

RES.

I only really play FE7 for drafts are ranked runs these days, and I only play FE8 for drafts now. So yeah, I really like LTCs, because I find them to be the most enjoyable style of play for me.

Now in games like FE4, I'm rather sluggish. :P