How many players actually care about turn count?

[Loki Laufeyson]

To be fair, using Nino even in casual play is a super pain in the ass.

[Refa]

Not if you're playing FE7RR.

Where she's the best magic using unit in the game.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Lol. Well, yeah....But thats not...oh you know what i mean! :P

[Sunwoo]

Oh boy ...

I've said this several times before and I'll say it again: I play how I want. Sometimes I feel like going for low turn count. I'll do that. Sometimes I feel like playing using only specific characters. I'll do that. Sometimes I want to support grind as many characters as possible. I'll do that.

There is nothing wrong with how you play FE (unless you just can't beat it even once on the easiest mode, that is, then we've got a problem). The great thing about a game like FE is that there are many ways of playing it. Tier lists are for people who care about that sort of thing, or a new player who wants to go for an LTC or efficiency run and has no idea where to start. Don't like 'em? Ignore them. It's not that hard. Rate the unit and character debates? LTC and efficiency people will have one opinion, and people who play for supports, 20/20 stats, or completion will play another way.

I don't doubt that perhaps there are some people on both sides of this "debate" who look down on the other side. But the trick is not to do it back to the "other side," but to be the bigger person and ignore it. Why does it matter "how many players actually care about turn count"? Some people do. So what?

[Axie]

There was a guy that got on (i think it was NinjaMonkey who was jumped on.) a member's case because he plays easy mode or normal mode only.

My memory isn't really good when it comes to FE9/10 but isn't NinjaMonkey the guy who detests Micaiah and thinks she's useless despite her contributions in FE10 Hard Mode? It's like I said, people get grilled when they go on a thread discussing a mode they never played and expect to be taken seriously.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Oh boy ...

I've said this several times before and I'll say it again: I play how I want. Sometimes I feel like going for low turn count. I'll do that. Sometimes I feel like playing using only specific characters. I'll do that. Sometimes I want to support grind as many characters as possible. I'll do that.

There is nothing wrong with how you play FE (unless you just can't beat it even once on the easiest mode, that is, then we've got a problem). The great thing about a game like FE is that there are many ways of playing it. Tier lists are for people who care about that sort of thing, or a new player who wants to go for an LTC or efficiency run and has no idea where to start. Don't like 'em? Ignore them. It's not that hard. Rate the unit and character debates? LTC and efficiency people will have one opinion, and people who play for supports, 20/20 stats, or completion will play another way.

I don't doubt that perhaps there are some people on both sides of this "debate" who look down on the other side. But the trick is not to do it back to the "other side," but to be the bigger person and ignore it. Why does it matter "how many players actually care about turn count"? Some people do. So what?

If only everyone thought this way.

Axie...umm perhaps.

[Might Gaine]

It pisses me off when people claim 20/20/20 general Amelia is superior 20/20 General Gilliam

I will admit that Gilliam tends to have more HP and DEF (and sometimes even STR), but Amelia tends to have more of everything else.

i'm strongly inclined to believe that you haven't used any of these units because FE6 marcus destroys at least half of FE6 and FE7 marcus close to 100% of FE7

see, the main problem is that your frame of reference is off and thus it makes it difficult for some of us to take your statements seriously: it does not matter how well units do relative to each other, only how they do relative to the enemies. the other problem is that even in your skewed frame of reference, your assertions are factually incorrect. for example:

- in FE7, 20/20 nino beats 20/20 erk in mag, skl, and luk, but erk has a substantial HP lead. they are objectively not all that different, but erk doesn't get praise for being oh so awesome when grinded to 20/20.

- in FE8, 10/20/20 amelia beats 20/20 franz in luk and res, but franz also has a substantial HP lead. again, not all that different, but for some reason she is so much better...

The frequency with which they dodge tends to make HP less relevant than with other characters. Or maybe I just consistently get more mediocre Erks and Franzes than everyone else does.

I have used the Marcuses, though, and they just don't seem to work out for me very well.

I used Zealot a few times, and he never lasted more than three chapters.

@Gaine, Most people around here seem to rate a unit based on how they perform on average.

I see. I will try to bear that in mind from this point forward. Starting a fight really is the last thing I want to do.

[CT075]

The frequency with which they dodge tends to make HP less relevant than with other characters. Or maybe I just consistently get more mediocre Erks and Franzes than everyone else does.

nino has no sizeable speed advantage over erk, nor does amelia have a sizeable speed advantage over franz, so avoid comes down to differing luck values (which comes down to like 5%)

[Myke]

Throw another in the 'I enjoy challenging myself' category. I especially like it when the game gives me a measuring stick I can use, and after a decade of Devil May Cry seeing that shiny little S-rank is like being given a puppy. A puppy that never poops or tears up your furniture.

[Anouleth]

I used Zealot a few times, and he never lasted more than three chapters.

Then you're not very good at the game, because Zealot can easily kill enemies in Chapter 9, leaving most enemies on single-digit HP or ORKOing outright.

I really don't see how people can find Zealot hard to use in the Western Isles. Obviously he's bad in Sacae/Ilia/Bern and pretty mediocre in Etruria, but he's good in Ostia and the Western Isles.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Anouleth

[MacLovin]

It pisses me off when people claim 20/20/20 general Amelia is superior 20/20 General Gilliam

I will admit that Gilliam tends to have more HP and DEF (and sometimes even STR), but Amelia tends to have more of everything else.

The frequency with which they dodge tends to make HP less relevant than with other characters. Or maybe I just consistently get more mediocre Erks and Franzes than everyone else does.

I have used the Marcuses, though, and they just don't seem to work out for me very well.

I used Zealot a few times, and he never lasted more than three chapters.

I see. I will try to bear that in mind from this point forward. Starting a fight really is the last thing I want to do.

It's SF.

Growth units with bad bases that arrive mid/lategame are considered bad, even with lolinfinitegrinding.

I play FE, because it has no need for grinding.

[Snowy_One]

Oh boy ...

I've said this several times before and I'll say it again: I play how I want. Sometimes I feel like going for low turn count. I'll do that. Sometimes I feel like playing using only specific characters. I'll do that. Sometimes I want to support grind as many characters as possible. I'll do that.

There is nothing wrong with how you play FE (unless you just can't beat it even once on the easiest mode, that is, then we've got a problem). The great thing about a game like FE is that there are many ways of playing it. Tier lists are for people who care about that sort of thing, or a new player who wants to go for an LTC or efficiency run and has no idea where to start. Don't like 'em? Ignore them. It's not that hard. Rate the unit and character debates? LTC and efficiency people will have one opinion, and people who play for supports, 20/20 stats, or completion will play another way.

I don't doubt that perhaps there are some people on both sides of this "debate" who look down on the other side. But the trick is not to do it back to the "other side," but to be the bigger person and ignore it. Why does it matter "how many players actually care about turn count"? Some people do. So what?

The problem is that LTC players tend to get in other peoples faces and treat you like a degenerate if you say something they disagree with. Recently I said Rolf could be argued better than Shinon in FE9 if trained. The response I got was a cry of outrage at the notion of even getting Rolf to level 10 by the time Shinon rejoins (the level I compared Rolf to Shinon at). Even suggesting that it is possible to rate the characters accurately without relying on turn counts as a means of measure or pointing out that the list has problems when the player doesn't play for LTC/doesn't use the strategies listed in it elicits a furious response.

The problem isn't 'casuals wanting their opinion to be valid'. The problem is tier listers wanting any playstyle other than tier play to be considered 'invalid casual play'. I used to believe that the characters could be properly tiered. I still do. But I do not believe it will ever happen so long as tier list makers limit themselves to such narrow definitions.

[Loki Laufeyson]

What thread was this because context seems to be getting lost here.

Because depending on the mode one is playing, Rolf's ability to match Shinon's level by his rejoining chapter is legitimately debatable. Easy mode is the only mode i can think of that Rolf would be actually surpassing Shinon by the time he comes back. Normal mode, maybe depending on babying/turns taken. Hard mode, lol no. (unless you gave all the things to Rolf....) So truly, its a fair argument to make. If the argument is based solely around LTC, i can see how that might not just annoy, but be a bit weak. Because Rolf's ability to get to that level by that time depends on a great deal of variables:

The player's style.

The mode the player is using.

The overall team of the player.

The amount of resources the player is willing to give to Rolf.

Time/turns taken to get Rolf to that level.

etc.

[MacLovin]

Rolf vs Shinon is kind of a bad comparison because Rolf starts off crappy and ends up mediocre with no way to counter at 1 range.

Shinon comes prepromoted and probobly takes less BEXP compared to efficiently raising rolf.

Shinons growths may allow him to play catch-up.

Rolf needs alot of bexp, forges, etc and comes at the games hardest when other units want the resources, etc.

THough for LTC, I'd say fe6 MArcus vs Alance to be more accurate.

[dondon151]

The problem is that LTC players tend to get in other peoples faces and treat you like a degenerate if you say something they disagree with.

the problem is that you have a victim complex

[-Cynthia-]

I generally don't care how many turns I actually take, but I find the game pretty boring if I don't try to be at least semi efficient (unless it's FE12 Lunatic or something, which is hard enough on its own).

[Snowy_One]

What thread was this because context seems to be getting lost here.

Because depending on the mode one is playing, Rolf's ability to match Shinon's level by his rejoining chapter is legitimately debatable. Easy mode is the only mode i can think of that Rolf would be actually surpassing Shinon by the time he comes back. Normal mode, maybe depending on babying/turns taken. Hard mode, lol no. (unless you gave all the things to Rolf....) So truly, its a fair argument to make. If the argument is based solely around LTC, i can see how that might not just annoy, but be a bit weak. Because Rolf's ability to get to that level by that time depends on a great deal of variables:

The player's style.

The mode the player is using.

The overall team of the player.

The amount of resources the player is willing to give to Rolf.

Time/turns taken to get Rolf to that level.

etc.

It doesn't really matter the mode. If you are planning on using Rolf seriously he will be fielded and, especially in non-effecient play, that means he will be getting experience from chipping and kills and claiming he cannot have access to BEXP is simply wrong (FYI it takes 946 BEXP to get him to this level on Hard with no outside Bexp. By the end of chapter 9 you should have basically double this on Hard). So even in maximum efficiency play Rolf can reach level 10 by the time Shinon rejoins simply through chipping, rare kills, and Bexp. Sure, Shinon gets his own BEXP if he's being used, but that was not brought up at any point. And this is Life's rating topic. The simple fact is Rolf can match Shinon's stats easily by his rejoining time and, if used in the long-term (as opposed to benching), Rolf has more availability and better stats on the whole. The only questions are 'what is Shinon's early game worth' and 'are we planning on using a sniper full-time, or focusing on other, better, units'.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Snowy, the real question is "How many players are actually going to be arsed to use Rolf?"

:/

I mean really, man, think about it. This comes from an easy mode RD player who uses Fiona every chance she gets. But trying to argue that Fiona is legitimately good compared to guys like Oscar is just plain nutty. One player may be arsed to use someone like Fiona or Rolf or Est or whatever. But a good majority are gonna see that unit and compare them to the rest of their team and go "NOPE".

[shadykid]

the problem is that you have a victim complex

damn

dondon dishing out a reality check

(besides, what advantages does Rolf seriously have over Shinon in RD anyway.....)

Edit: nvm, this is PoR

......just lolpaladin stomp that game

Edited January 5, 2013 by shadykid

[Momentai~]

I tend to only think of turns in terms of event triggers; I don't really use them as a measure of how fast or slow I'm going. I wasn't aware that people cared about turns until I came to this site lol.

I must admit it is fun to do things as quickly as possible and work characters to their limit as opposed to just turtling along without having to worry about death. It's a nice change of pace to try to do things faster than I did the last time around.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Momentai~

[Trepanation]

Depends on if you are predominantly an RPG gamer or predominantly a strategy gamer.

[Paper Jam]

The problem is that LTC players tend to get in other peoples faces and treat you like a degenerate if you say something they disagree with.

Yeah, I got into a pretty nasty argument over the definition of "efficiency" a while ago.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=43063

[General Banzai]

oh yawn another one of these threads

[Rehab]

I tend to look back on the chapters I took the longest to complete the most fondly

when the game tells me how many turns I took to complete each chapter, I look for the biggest turn counts and reminisce

"ahhhh that was a good one"

[dondon151]

Yeah, I got into a pretty nasty argument over the definition of "efficiency" a while ago.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=43063

1. this does not look like a nasty argument at all

2. you started the topic