Nostalgia Mafia Game Over

[Shinori]

I'll post a reply to this when I'm back from work in a few hours.

[riariadne]

blame from who? also if you aren't confirmed or seeming particularly town, you're scummy by default. sorry, but that's how it works. right now I'd say eclipse and prims are leaning town for me, and maybe cam and snike. Kay is either trying too hard scum or ineffectual town. everyone else is varying degrees with Aere and BBM and Elieson and you leading the pack

also these are bad reasons because wow I'm playing better than you rein. what exactly am I not doing? and second, there's much mmore of a reason to vote for Elieson than there is for me.

okay that's dumb but whatever.

This is completely irrelevant. How well I'm playing has nothing to do with it, and up till here you weren't really contributing, just doing a whole lot of nothing. You don't explain your reads at all, either. Saying "I think X is Y" is useless. Saying "I think X is Y because Z" is much more helpful. That looks bad to me, and I voted you for it.

I also don't like how you're reacting to this single vote. Seems pretty defensive for something so minor.

I am liking Elieson less and less. This is getting very desperate looking.

I would like to hear from Dark Sage and Anouleth. You don't have any posts and we're most of the way through Day 1! This is not useful to anyone.

[Elieson]

if ppl would just say "you know, he might be town, but he might be scum. I'm not gonna trust him nor attack him", then heck ok, that's a thing that is expected/10. But Cam just admitted to defending, because I pressed it so damn hard. So I found BUDDYING, on Day 1. Buddying is kind of a scumtell, isn't it?

Because I'm an annoying yet persistant guy, I pressed buttons and found a result.

And for the love of god, it's not Prims I'm after. It's the people reacting to his claim that I'm paying attention to.

##Unvote

##Vote Cam

I forgot to put this in my other post, since I'm at work still and got distracted.

[Psych]

Well, it wasn't defensive... so yeah. Everything I've said in regards to Psych has just been me being confused because he doesn't make sense.

How exactly have I not been making sense? And anyway, through the last few pages, you seem to have cleared up in my eyes, since Elieson is getting a lot weirder.

Psych - ilutoo, but if you got your case on Aere via ISO, then you're being lazy (since that's the only way I see it holding water). You more-or-less make sense, then this (asking someone to lynch someone else who looks worse is hardly town-like).

It wasn't really a case for Elieson versus me, it's more of Elieson is looking weird or something I don't really remember where I was going with this but it had a really great reason and it was like not him specifically but something like that like people in general wow i am rambling

As a matter of fact, I don't really care about the other people on the wagon, but ##Unvote, Vote Elieson, because something is just not right here. First he doesn't want us to reveal reads, then someone (I think it was him too) doesn't want us to reveal town reads, and then he wants us to scum hunt more and all of this is basically Elieson is massive scum or recently suffered a concussion.

Ok so apart from me agreeing that the only thing I can remember about you is- LOLOL PEOPLE ARE DUMB, question:

Any reason you find Snike and Camtech townier? I could see something from Snike, but Cam has literally done nothing but flail about and post irrelevant stuff... or sheep wrt Elieson vote. Also would like you to explain why you felt Aere stood out during the PGO discussion, it'd be good if you could quote some of his posts and explain. I'd like to ask why you think eclipse and Prims look town to you, or, wth, WHY YOU EVEN OUTED TOWN READS when that obviously isn't helping town at all.

Snike is giving me a vibe. I can't really pick out one post in particular or anything but he seems to be helping and not doing something like Elieson is and just trying to save his own hide.

Admittedly this wouldn't apply a few hours ago, but Cam has been posting a bit more since then.

Aere is changing my mind, but it was probably these posts here.

also please look below on my opinion on town reads

you are bad and you should feel bad

Psych post #329 I don't like.

"also these are bad reasons because wow I'm playing better than you rein. what exactly am I not doing?"

Well I'll let Rein deal with the question, but; whether you're playing better than someone or not doesn't mean that their arguments are invalid. I want to say it's a ad hominem, but I'm not quite sure if that's the right term I'm looking for here. Something along those lines, anyway. Also all the stuff from my earlier gut check are still being considered.

Okay so I just woke up and I've skimmed, but gut check on Psych for this post and this post.

I was playing around with the idea of someone drafting the Life role from SFMM2 as scum, and that first post I linked gave me a weird feeling as Psych goes and berates someone in every sentence, and I'm fairly certain that's not normal Psych play. And the second post is just... okay. Just because your scum play is "shit" doesn't mean you aren't (and it could possibly be a ruse). /contrived reasoning

Now let me read through the thread again.

Why do I have to follow the same play style every game? I believe Prims and Eclipse have both brought this up in past games multiple times, but just because I don't feel like doing something one day doesn't suddenly mean I'm scum. If I want to call everyone out on their idiotic bullshit then I'm going to call them out on their idiotic bullshit.

also i am not even joking go look at me in menly men i was awful

Argh.

For the record, on a scale of 1-100, prims is around 51% scummy, and that's because of his meta where I'm used to him starting a game off as town by doing ridiculous stunts like bluffing vig shots. He's being surprisingly mild and tame in this game, and it just seems slightly off to me. It'd be like if Shinori was all apologetic one game, or if Eclipse suddsnly decided to support massclaiming without explaination. I know it's weak, because it's meta, but I'm not willing to discredit it. Plus, I'm also opposed believing he is town just because he claimed an antitown role early on. Sure he may be town, but at tgis point in D1, it's damn hard to earn a town rating from anyone. It's more like Scum-Scumlean-neutral-TownLean.

Perhaps at this point, we should all out our top 3-5 scumreads at this point, with a brief reason as to why. It'd give us something to consider (how many people think scum other than apparently just me exists), and also it would draw light on those who others may not view as scum. Save the detailed argument for a bit later on, just say like "Prims, for odd meta. SB for a strange vote and essentially OMGUS (albeit backwards)" etc.

---

Psych seems overall berating and noncontributory (is that a word?). I would love to see an actual non-iso specific case from him not including the words "stupid" and "idiot".

---

As for my vote on Prims, I wanted to show pressure and seriousness. If I just said that I didn't believe his claim, and did not vote, I would have likely been ignored/overlooked. We were still in RVS for crying out loud. My vote on him was to create reactions. His gameplay following my vote is why I developed a scummy opinion of him.

Because there are three kinds of votes. Votes for scum lynching, votes to prod/create discussion, and rvs. You admitted to voting for me as a prod for discussion. Now you are refusing to understand that I did that too.

So, my vote was to obtain reactions based on his claim. It was not RVS. I'm ticked that it's so hard for some people.to see.

Prims probably isn't being amazing because he's a passive role? Or because not everyone has to be amazing all the time? Now, if he wanted to claim doc instead of PGO then hey, that's a pretty damn nice plan I would probably try and have it fail horribly though.

Also, I like how you say some of your claims here are on meta, then go and berate Aere here for using Meta as his claim. You aren't helping yourself with me.

I don't think my vocabulary has any correlation to my alliance, and just for the record, siding against you =/= not contributing.

Something about this last part seems off to me but I can't put my finger on it.

seee, first thing is outing town reads is generally bad and doesn't help town. Second, if you were gonna out town reads, the least you could do was state reasons.

(This is part to prove Elieson's ISO thing wrong, buttttt....) this is dumb and you should feel dumb

sharing reads of any kind is always a good thing. It can't hurt to share how you are feeling and help get things out in the open. It's not like the mafia is suddenly going to bandwagon or something on that person or whatever.

Elie, has is not occurred to you that while Prims claiming might not make him town, it doesn't make him scum either. Heck, it doesn't even make him lynch worthy in the slightest so I have no idea while you're still going on about it. Why is it so hard to accept for you that Prims might just be the town PGO, and not defo scum?

also this too i like this

[Psych]

god dammit rein I was making a big post and you pick now to post your thing

now I have to reply

[Psych]

okay that's dumb but whatever.

This is completely irrelevant. How well I'm playing has nothing to do with it, and up till here you weren't really contributing, just doing a whole lot of nothing. You don't explain your reads at all, either. Saying "I think X is Y" is useless. Saying "I think X is Y because Z" is much more helpful. That looks bad to me, and I voted you for it.

I also don't like how you're reacting to this single vote. Seems pretty defensive for something so minor.

I am liking Elieson less and less. This is getting very desperate looking.

I would like to hear from Dark Sage and Anouleth. You don't have any posts and we're most of the way through Day 1! This is not useful to anyone.

It's the only vote on me and I didn't really have much else to do at the time, so I figured I'd do something. I think I did give some reasoning to my reads though.

also yes elieson is bad

and this too

[Aere]

Meta and grasping

Meta

Grasping.

Meta (merely mentioned, right?)

---

This is probably the most defensive half of a post I've ever read.

[Zkirsche]

if ppl would just say "you know, he might be town, but he might be scum. I'm not gonna trust him nor attack him", then heck ok, that's a thing that is expected/10. But Cam just admitted to defending, because I pressed it so damn hard. So I found BUDDYING, on Day 1. Buddying is kind of a scumtell, isn't it?

Is this really true? This hasn't been the impression that you've given me at all.

[Zkirsche]

You know what, screw it.

##Unvote

##Vote: Elieson

Kay has done what I've asked of her, and I criticised her for being stubborn but you're being far worse. Calm down and let this Prims thing go and stop being so defensive.

[Psych]

I believe Elieson has 6 votes on him?

[Iris]

Sorry for being so unmemorable, I've just been sick (and therefore stressed out since I'm not writhing in bed, now I'm almost healthy but back at school with a shitload of school stuff, but that's the norm in the life of Iris. My activity will increase exponentially once the weekend hits.

paperblade votals or i will since my votals are perfection

Iris why are you scared of stacking votes?

Ahem, and not afraid, I noticed Shinori reading the topic right before I posted my stuff so I figured he would address adequately and Elieson was also bothering me.

Thanks for answering, Elieson. I don't really like why you brought something like that up but IIRC you did a lot of weird things to get games out of RVS before.

So, while I was sick and/or at school (sadly, both are not mutually exclusive), a wagon seems to have built up on Elieson. I'm actually not feeling this wagon at all and I'm not really sure how/why people piled onto him. It just seems weird, and early (but not only weird since it's early, ofc). @EVERYONE ON ELIE WAGON: who else is scum and why? The only think that still unnerves me that it's a little backwards now that you've mentioned that Prims could possibly be a scum PGO????? (51% to quote)

##Unvote

##Vote: Kirsche

I feel like your vote is incredibly opportunistic. Although Elieson is being weird about the Prims thing (which I strongly disagree upon), you seem to be piggy backing upon all the mayhem regarding his wagon.

Also I feel like some people have slipped under the radar too far (I'm not one to talk), like I forgot Marth was in this game since his posts seemed slightly generic and didn't add anything to the discussion.

[Zkirsche]

It just seems weird, and early (but not only weird since it's early, ofc).

Is it early? Aren't we almost 48 hours into D1? Better than leaving a lynch until the last 5 hours of the day. As for my vote being opportunistic, when someone is being this scummy, is it really better for me to just say taht I think tehy're scummy and leave it? Didn't people criticise me for not wanting to join bandwagons in anonydraft? Well, here I am not afraid to lynch the people I think are scum, and now both you and Kay are calling me opportunistic.

Tbh its not like I can be the first person to call out someone scummy, because 90% of the conversation happens when I'm not online so someone else gets to it first. So inevitably I will end up agreeing with someone. Sorry but that isn't going to stop happening no matter how much you whine about it because I'm not getting up at 4 AM to play mafia.

[Zkirsche]

Sorry that looks passive aggressive, but it was bugging me the whole of anonydraft too.

[Grace]

I also don't like how you're reacting to this single vote. Seems pretty defensive for something so minor.

Echo time. Fully agree with this.

@EVERYONE ON ELIE WAGON: who else is scum and why?

Hi there; well *checks notes*

Psych is still giving me bad vibes

Shinori cleared himself up over that statement, although he really hasn't done much otherwise (trying to coast through, maybe?)

and... wait. Wow these notes are outdated. Damn you ED1 notes!

I'll have to get a reread going, but the above still stands

[CT075]

So, while I was sick and/or at school (sadly, both are not mutually exclusive), a wagon seems to have built up on Elieson.

is there anything in particular that you're not seeing on the wagon

@EVERYONE ON ELIE WAGON: who else is scum and why?

if i had to pick i'd lynch psych for being a little defensive

[Shinori]

Well, it wasn't defensive... so yeah. Everything I've said in regards to Psych has just been me being confused because he doesn't make sense.

Elie tends to get votes on him D1 because he sounds scummy. This does not excuse him from sounding scummy, however. I was merely making note of his playstyle (which seems to be the same no matter his alignment anyway).

First off, re reading part of the thread but I wanted to reply to Aere's post here while I did so.

How was the post in question not defensive?

No one was talking about you, Psych was the only person to vote you, I think, and HE wasn't even talking about you at the time and you just randomly decided to say:

For the record, Psych seems to think I'm scummy because I talked the most during the Prims scenario.

Tell me how that isn't defensive? If it wasn't defensive, then why did you state it? Were you trying to say he was scummy? What was your reasoning for this post?

I'm getting more of a town vibe at the moment from Kay.

I'm going to reread all of elieson once again since I am going to reread the thread.

SB still looks like he is doing not much of anything, and the town read on BBM is wierd. You have him as town for defending me when it was already stated by prims that scum could defend a town player who they feel is going to be lynched for town cred. Do you have any other reasoning to believe he is town?

Also something about Psych is irking me.

For now leaving my vote on Aere, massive FoS at SB though, and as I said, going to reread the Elieson debacle.

Okay, I'm gonna go read the whole thread again, content post in a few hours.

[BBM]

Okay, I stepped away from the game and came back to it, and I've realized that I've been tunneling Kay kind of hard. I still don't like her play, but upon reread of both her posts and mine, my only real reason for voting for her was having fluffy posts without a lot of scumhunting. But I feel that some of her later posts have focused down and attempted to fix that, so I'm moving her slightly down on my scumdar for now. My second on there is Elieson but he has 6 or 7 votes on him already so I don't really think another one is necessary quite yet.

So, ##Unvote, ##Vote: Iris

I really really did not like this post. I understand your vote against Kirsche for piggybacking on the Elieson wagon without much reasoning. But you basically just handwaved everything everyone has said against Elieson- you defended him but gave no reason for it, and it gives me the feeling that maybe you already know he's going to flip town and you're trying to get townie cred from being against his lynch.

[Aere]

My posts regarding Psych were for clarification. Psych placed a vote on me for a terrible reason (I stood out), and while I hadn't thought it was scummy, I wanted to see what the rest of you thought. I was trying to understand him (and Elie) myself, and I was posting my thoughts so others could correct me/whatever.

Shinori, why do you feel Kay is town?

[Rapier]

My issues really arise with Rapier and Aere. The former I think is misrepresenting Elieson as being like a peanut gallery, in the sense that he doesn't give relevant opinions on people. Which strikes me as odd, seeing as Elie was pushing a Prims lynch. If anything, waffling would've been a better term to describe elie when he was backing off of Prims, not No Opinions.

My problem with him is that he voted Prims, being the only one saying he's scum, and then he unvoted him and said 'lol nvm it was just a way to start a discussion' and then he says he does not find Prims townish at all. What. And I -do- find him quite vague about reads.

Rapier's post ##300 is just horrible. It might be because I'm a bit biased, but I don't see how Kay's been posting walls of passive-aggressive text when the only post which looked like that was the one against Shinori. PGO point is well noted, Rapier, please tell me what is her 'fluff'? This is D1, everything at this point is 'fluff' considering we have no flips or anything. That and the fluff most were talking about was ED1, which is just worse to base that statement on.

Point taken, I realize my mistake.

Not buying the case against BBM is one thing, but your reasoning doesn't go well with me: People find BBM scummy for jumping on Kay and eclipse for POINTING OUT AN INCONSISTENCY. Its not like Shinori was going to get lynched anytime soon, this is jumping the gun and getting overly paranoid. Also you're trying to tell us that we shouldn't go after inconsistencies with that bold text over there. ##Vote: Rapier

No, I'm just saying that Shinori's slip/however you call it is not enough to call him scummy, or suspicious. One thing is trying to dig deeper into his post, but thinking he's scummy just because he associated third parties with hidden players is another completely different thing, as if it were a big slip.

Kay I find is kinda defensive which is not that great, so it'd be nice if you went on the offensive sometime.

That is exactly what I said about her, so what is wrong with my read? >_>

Argh.

For the record, on a scale of 1-100, prims is around 51% scummy, and that's because of his meta where I'm used to him starting a game off as town by doing ridiculous stunts like bluffing vig shots. He's being surprisingly mild and tame in this game, and it just seems slightly off to me. It'd be like if Shinori was all apologetic one game, or if Eclipse suddsnly decided to support massclaiming without explaination. I know it's weak, because it's meta, but I'm not willing to discredit it. Plus, I'm also opposed believing he is town just because he claimed an antitown role early on. Sure he may be town, but at tgis point in D1, it's damn hard to earn a town rating from anyone. It's more like Scum-Scumlean-neutral-TownLean.

So you are basically neutral towards him, okay.

---

Perhaps at this point, we should all out our top 3-5 scumreads at this point, with a brief reason as to why. It'd give us something to consider (how many people think scum other than apparently just me exists), and also it would draw light on those who others may not view as scum. Save the detailed argument for a bit later on, just say like "Prims, for odd meta. SB for a strange vote and essentially OMGUS (albeit backwards)" etc.

Okay.

People I find quite scummy:

Elie, because his policy lynch and looking scummy intentionally to start a debate and stop RVS is something I don't buy. Besides, he had not enough info on Prims, how could he say he was scum? Or even town? What if you did lynch him, how would you justify that? I dislike it when someone does something scummy and then says 'lol jk', would not mind lynching.

People I find odd:

Psych, because he came to say we're all idiots and Prims looks obvtown, gave some opinions and then disappeared LIKE MAGIC.

SB, because he has been too lazy to even state his opinion about Elie being scummy. Hi opportunistic scum.

Marth because he has been asking more questions than stating anything, as if he is poking around trying to find a hole. Then again, this is also my playstyle... Kinda.

---

Cam feels to me that he is defending Prims (based on this).

You call it a useless lynch. If he was scum, then it would be very useful then to lynch him. The only way it's not a useful lynch is if he is gaurenteed town, and since apparently not even an inspect can prove that, Prims should never be obvtown (on Day, or even D2 imo. On what grounds are you able to infer that Prims (or anyone really) is a useless lynch?

However, was there anything that could have made you think Prims was scum in particular? Or town? You are only basing yourself on meta to judge him. While I agree that he is a lot more tame and not so active when he's scum, I don't think it is that easy to judge someone just from start-mid D1 behavior.

---

Rapier voted for me because I'm confusing him with my "lack of opinions", and he thinks I'm third party. That's his argument. That's a policy lynch argument, and I'm certain that at this point, we should have something to go on besides what you seem to consider being a policy lynch.

I said you look like a third party, not that you are. And your vote alone is not the only thing that makes you believe you are suspicious.

[Psych]

Psych, because he came to say we're all idiots and Prims looks obvtown, gave some opinions and then disappeared LIKE MAGIC.

That's called sleeping then going to school.

also did anyone read what is likely the longest mafia post I have ever written? where I bring up a bunch of good points?

[Paperblade]

Votals

[7]Elieson: Bluedoom, BBM, Iris, Manix, Rapier, Cam, Aere, Serious Bananas, Psych, Kevin

[1]Kay: Prims, BBM, Elieson, Kevin, Snike

[1]Aere: Psych, Shinori

[1]BBM: Aere, Bluedoom, Snike, Kay

[1]Psych: Strider, Snike

[1]Serious Bananas: Shinori, eclipse

[1]Rapier: Prims, Bluedoom

[1]Kevin: Snike, Iris

[1]Manix: Elieson, Prims

[1]Cam: Elieson

[1]Iris: BBM

[0]Shinori: Rapier, eclipse, Manix

[0]Sage: Serious Bananas

[0]Bluedoom: Cam

[0]Strider: Prims, Serious Bananas, Kevin

[0]scorri: BBM

[0]Snike: Strider

[0]Prims: BBM, Elieson

[0]eclipse: Manix

[2]Not Voting: Anouleth, Sage

[Anouleth]

Sorry I haven't posted yet, I didn't even realise this game started. I'll try to catch up and contribute something.

[Rapier]

You are defending a player of unconfirmed aligmment, on Day 1. Ok cool, thanks for clearing that up. It's nice to see that you are basing your entire opinion of his "innocence" on his roleclaim, almost as if you know something, and are trying to cover it up by saying you know he is town, therefore not worth lynching.

How is it wrong to defend your opinions? That doesn't mean Cam is instant buddying with Prims. Else, I'd be buddying with Shinori.

Also, sorry Psych, didn't read your huge post. Well you DO have a point, and I'm glad you are still here.

By the way, I feel better about Kay. She was being too defensive, but at least she's been saying nice things.

[CT075]

You are defending a player of unconfirmed aligmment, on Day 1. Ok cool, thanks for clearing that up. It's nice to see that you are basing your entire opinion of his "innocence" on his roleclaim, almost as if you know something, and are trying to cover it up by saying you know he is town, therefore not worth lynching.

thank you very much

let's see

this reeks of flat out grasping

i never once said that i'm certain that prims is town, nor did i ever imply it beyond "he looks more town than X"

not to mention he does this with a great omgus

as well as completely utterly ignoring the points i brought up

[Snike]

Shifting gears.

##Unvote

##Vote: Aere

Shinori's covered a good portion of why he's suspect, but what really drew my attention was this post:

This is probably the most defensive half of a post I've ever read.

This is probably the most compact misrep of a post I've ever read.

If one looks at the quotes in question, those one-word descriptions sort of correctly label them, at least, with regards to Elieson. Not sure how it's really defensive, so it looks like, as I mentioned above, a misrep/Aere being butthurt that he was called out. In a world of soft scumreads, this one sticks out.

Still leery of Kay, BBM, and Rapier, though.