Schoolteacher Mafia

[Shinori]

I think this is the first game besides ICBINSFMM3 where I got an award. GG.

[Prims]

This ended while I was asleep.

Okay, my part. I had two reasons for being so pissed off with that D1 lynch.

1) Prims, could you stop pushing for lynches on D1 AS TOWN so hard with no solid evidence? I see this as bad play. Partly because, well, you're PRIMS and you're a damn good mafia player. Sometimes, people have a tendency to just trust your reads for being Prims, and I was pretty damn sure we were going to be lynched partly because of you pushing us so hard. Also, I still have no idea why the fuck you and Shinori had even switched over to us and Manix's case ... well, it was mostly based on earlygame still that I had disputed, there was really NOTHING MORE I could say to this.

D1 mislynches happen all the time, and they're just as much the target's fault as the town's, unless it's bullshit like the Blitz lynch from Draft. Sometimes they're not for the best reasons, but that's okay, because town isn't perfect and D1 sucks for everyone anyway. The amount of bitterness over this is silly.

"Solid evidence" is a cop or tracker result. I lynch people I think are scum, and I can be wrong, especially on Day 1 (For the record, my reasons for finding Mancer scummy aside from the early claim are here). Claiming in response to the fake guilty was legit a terrible move, and if you think people are obligated to switch off you because you defended yourself then that's really naive; scum can defend themselves too and it's not always going to satisfy people. Generally, the best way to avoid a D1 mislynch is to find somebody scummier and lynch them. If you're town then it at least has some chance of hitting scum, unlike a lynch on you (seriously, self-voting is never okay).

Seriously, none of my town play this game was any worse than self-voting and threatening to self-modkill. My rhetoric was pretty overzealous but IMO it doesn't justify you and Mancer flipping out. If you're in this situation again, then like I said, the best you can do is do all you can in the last minute to push the lynch onto a person you thought were scum. That's gonna make people not want to lynch you a lot more than causing a shitstorm will.

The most ridiculous part is that you had no way of knowing how many of us on your wagon were scum. Like, what if a bunch of mafs were doing their job and wagonned you for shitty reasons and you did this in response? You'd basically be giving them a field day, which is why this sort of reaction to a D1 wagon is so unnecessary.

If you keep this outlook about getting lynched then you're basically refusing to learn from your mistakes (although this lynch was more due to Mancer's play than yours).

Edited December 24, 2012 by cyborg sammy davis jr.

[Paperblade]

SB lynch was awful.

Not pretty bad.

AWFUL.

The SB lynch was amazing

Entire mafia piles up on someone, townies are like "well for the sake of the lynch..."

edit: Also, don't get mad, get even.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Paperblade

[Helios]

Helios: rolespec based on what has been placed on the table by players who have flipped town is different (compared to like, earlygame rolespec). like, for example, it was apparent that there was a redirector here, and we knew who it couldn't be based on the tracker reports. PoE there is what got you, and it's perfectly logical to proceed through that.

see: townies shouldn't lie theory

The problem with this is that you believed everything everyone said (hence "naivety"). If one person that you believed ended up being scum lying off their asses (like me!) then this whole thing would have flopped against you. I also proved how easy it was to fake a tracker report, and it helped beforehand that I thought about fakeclaiming tracker since I was a redirector and scum so I knew where people would target. It worked this time, and it's not like I can be mad or anything, but this seriously isn't good play because of how inaccurate it is (and that's saying something because scumhunting isn't an accurate art either). What I'm trying to say is this: there's too many possibilities to get too confident over something that doesn't have proof behind it, because if you were just a little wrong everything would have flopped on you and scum would easily take advantage of it.

The SB lynch was amazing

Entire mafia piles up on someone, townies are like "well for the sake of the lynch..."

edit: Also, don't get mad, get even.

B)

[charlie_]

The SB lynch was amazing

Entire mafia piles up on someone, townies are like "well for the sake of the lynch..."

^this

sleeping sucks

oh well, good job town.

[eclipse]

D1 mislynches happen all the time, and they're just as much the target's fault as the town's, unless it's bullshit like the Blitz lynch from Draft. Sometimes they're not for the best reasons, but that's okay, because town isn't perfect and D1 sucks for everyone anyway. The amount of bitterness over this is silly.

"Solid evidence" is a cop or tracker result. I lynch people I think are scum, and I can be wrong, especially on Day 1 (For the record, my reasons for finding Mancer scummy aside from the early claim are here). Claiming in response to the fake guilty was legit a terrible move, and if you think people are obligated to switch off you because you defended yourself then that's really naive; scum can defend themselves too and it's not always going to satisfy people. Generally, the best way to avoid a D1 mislynch is to find somebody scummier and lynch them. If you're town then it at least has some chance of hitting scum, unlike a lynch on you (seriously, self-voting is never okay).

Seriously, none of my town play this game was any worse than self-voting and threatening to self-modkill. My rhetoric was pretty overzealous but IMO it doesn't justify you and Mancer flipping out. If you're in this situation again, then like I said, the best you can do is do all you can in the last minute to push the lynch onto a person you thought were scum. That's gonna make people not want to lynch you a lot more than causing a shitstorm will.

The most ridiculous part is that you had no way of knowing how many of us on your wagon were scum. Like, what if a bunch of mafs were doing their job and wagonned you for shitty reasons and you did this in response? You'd basically be giving them a field day, which is why this sort of reaction to a D1 wagon is so unnecessary.

If you keep this outlook about getting lynched then you're basically refusing to learn from your mistakes (although this lynch was more due to Mancer's play than yours).

Helios: rolespec based on what has been placed on the table by players who have flipped town is different (compared to like, earlygame rolespec). like, for example, it was apparent that there was a redirector here, and we knew who it couldn't be based on the tracker reports. PoE there is what got you, and it's perfectly logical to proceed through that.

see: townies shouldn't lie theory

[Paperblade]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3645522&postcount=7

[Prims]

D1 mislynches happen all the time, and they're just as much the target's fault as the town's, unless it's bullshit like the Blitz lynch from Draft. Sometimes they're not for the best reasons, but that's okay, because town isn't perfect and D1 sucks for everyone anyway. The amount of bitterness over this is silly.

"Solid evidence" is a cop or tracker result. I lynch people I think are scum, and I can be wrong, especially on Day 1 (For the record, my reasons for finding Mancer scummy aside from the early claim are here). Claiming in response to the fake guilty was legit a terrible move, and if you think people are obligated to switch off you because you defended yourself then that's really naive; scum can defend themselves too and it's not always going to satisfy people. Generally, the best way to avoid a D1 mislynch is to find somebody scummier and lynch them. If you're town then it at least has some chance of hitting scum, unlike a lynch on you (seriously, self-voting is never okay).

Seriously, none of my town play this game was any worse than self-voting and threatening to self-modkill. My rhetoric was pretty overzealous but IMO it doesn't justify you and Mancer flipping out. If you're in this situation again, then like I said, the best you can do is do all you can in the last minute to push the lynch onto a person you thought were scum. That's gonna make people not want to lynch you a lot more than causing a shitstorm will.

The most ridiculous part is that you had no way of knowing how many of us on your wagon were scum. Like, what if a bunch of mafs were doing their job and wagonned you for shitty reasons and you did this in response? You'd basically be giving them a field day, which is why this sort of reaction to a D1 wagon is so unnecessary.

If you keep this outlook about getting lynched then you're basically refusing to learn from your mistakes (although this lynch was more due to Mancer's play than yours).

Helios: rolespec based on what has been placed on the table by players who have flipped town is different (compared to like, earlygame rolespec). like, for example, it was apparent that there was a redirector here, and we knew who it couldn't be based on the tracker reports. PoE there is what got you, and it's perfectly logical to proceed through that.

see: townies shouldn't lie theory

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3645522&postcount=7

im gay

Also, even ignoring the fact that I 100% agree with "lying about your role is okay if you can get away with it" and will do so whenever possible to keep scum in the dark barring a rolecop result, the daycop claim wasn't even intended as a lie and it was pretty obviously a joke. If you think I shouldn't joke around in mafia games then I'm going to have to respectfully disagree (seeing as I have never fucked over my alignment by doing so) and also argue that ur dum. Elie fullcopping me as retroactive justification for not making facetious fakeclaims is actually terrible because cults rarely happen and from my PoV at the time a scan would've just made me pseudo-confirmed town. Being confirmed town owns.

[Grace]

well more to the point, townies shouldn't lie about what their actual role is if they are about to flip or something

Helios: Kaoz had flipped, so I used his tracker reports to clear Bal and Kay. Shinori had flipped town, and was a town sided redirect, which was aimed at Elie (through redirect), which logically (and for simplicity) means that Elie wasn't it either (trusting Shinori after his flip). I wasn't it because I was a passive role (and Elie would have been able to back me up too). Rocker couldn't have been it because lolorc

basically everything was there (and using occam's razor too), which meant only you or scorri could be lying about being a redirector

[BBM]

Also, my plan was to start breadcrumbing that I was a non-consecutive night Omniguard if I hadn't died N2, since it was the only way I'd get myself killed with all the claimed power roles.

By the way, the reason the mafia didn't kill Rocker N3 was because they thought he would get modkilled. I'm not entirely sure why they chose not to kill him N4, but I think it was because Helios had claimed Bodyguard and it would look bad if Rocker died after that. That's just a guess, but it's why I think mafia fakeclaiming protective roles is bad. Other than that Bodyguard is a really common scum fakeclaim, you block yourself off from being able to kill power roles.

[Baldrick]

gg town.

I hope to put what I learnt to use in future games.

[Grace]

Other than that Bodyguard is a really common scum fakeclaim, you block yourself off from being able to kill power roles.

But yet we don't see BG fakeclaims often here (I mentioned this during the game too)

it's still a scumclaim though (protip: claim mafia roleblocker on you or something, works a treat)

[BBM]

Hmm? I've seen BG fakeclaims several times. I'm pretty sure it's the second most often fakeclaim I've seen, after Backup.

[Prims]

yeah, sf scum love fakeclaiming The Three Bs (backup, bodyguard, bulletproof). i seriously can't remember any memorable scum fakeclaims offhand that weren't one of those

[BBM]

But what about lynchproof???

[Helios]

well more to the point, townies shouldn't lie about what their actual role is if they are about to flip or something

Helios: Kaoz had flipped, so I used his tracker reports to clear Bal and Kay. Shinori had flipped town, and was a town sided redirect, which was aimed at Elie (through redirect), which logically (and for simplicity) means that Elie wasn't it either (trusting Shinori after his flip). I wasn't it because I was a passive role (and Elie would have been able to back me up too). Rocker couldn't have been it because lolorc

basically everything was there (and using occam's razor too), which meant only you or scorri could be lying about being a redirector

No no I was talking about before all that. After Kaoz's flip things obviously started to make sense, but I'm talking about D2/D3 when nothing was proven yet everyone seemed to believe everything. People were playing extremely scummy, but once they claimed something everyone just completely forgot about it and just labeled them as whatever role they claimed. Again though, the real reason why it got on my nerves is just because of what scum did in PoT and how town let Paper and Prims get away pretty easily and lynched me instead ;/.

[BBM]

Actually, now that I think about it, Helios in particular has fakeclaimed BG at least 3 times- CPM, Nostalgia, and here. In fact, I'm pretty sure Helios should be policy lynched whenever he claims it.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Thomas Raith

[Sunwoo]

1. For the record, I wasn't mad about being lynched. I was mad at people like Elie and SB, who were opportunistically jumping onto an easy wagon (AND WERE TOWN) who were lynching us solely on our role claim despite not having had any suspicions on us before.

2. Five posts. Per fucking phase. By the time attention really came on us, I had already used up 4 of my allotted post. I am not so great of a player that I can get the lynch off me and onto someone else with only one post. Also, by the time I'd realized that I could get Mancer to copy-paste my thoughts from the role PM directly we were too far gone. ALSO, no one really asked for my opinion either!

3. I'm not refusing to learn from my mistakes. I've apologized about my behavior for exploding in-thread and I know not to get so frustrated over a game and what to do if I am. I know how to play better. However, I've yet to see anyone else apologize for the provocations and it's hard to apologize and continue to be sorry when no one else is admitting that they were wrong too.

4. The self-modkill was anti-town. The self-vote was not, due to the context. What were we depriving you of? Your discussion time? Oh wait, phase won't end early. A secondary lynch target? WHAT SECONDARY LYNCH TARGET.

tl;dr

I acknowledge that this wasn't my best game and that I made mistakes and that I can do better because I am better. However, my exploding on D1 was not unprovoked and I wish you guys would at least acknowledge that.

[Helios]

Actually, now that I think about it, Helios in particular has fakeclaimed BG at least 3 times- CPM, Nostalgia, and here. In fact, I'm pretty sure Helios should be policy lynched whenever he claims it.

Shhhh people weren't supposed to realize that yet lol

[Shinori]

Self voting is just anti town in general boron.

"You aren't playing to your win-con."

[Sunwoo]

And no one else who is town has ever self-voted ever, right Shinori? (sarcasm)

Look, if the circumstances were different I would have told Mancer to not self-hammer. But because D1 was not going to end early, there was no counterwagon, and we were going to be dead at the end of phase anyway, WHAT PRAY TELL ME IS THE DIFFERENCE?!?!?! I was so pissed off at that time I was considering quitting SF mafia forever.

I've already admitted I was wrong enough already. If you guys aren't going to acknowledge that you guys had some part in driving Mancer and me to that point, I really have nothing more to say.

[Shinori]

And no one else who is town has ever self-voted ever, right Shinori? (sarcasm)

Look, if the circumstances were different I would have told Mancer to not self-hammer. But because D1 was not going to end early, there was no counterwagon, and we were going to be dead at the end of phase anyway, WHAT PRAY TELL ME IS THE DIFFERENCE?!?!?! I was so pissed off at that time I was considering quitting SF mafia forever.

I've already admitted I was wrong enough already. If you guys aren't going to acknowledge that you guys had some part in driving Mancer and me to that point, I really have nothing more to say.

And every self voter get's policy votes on them. People did it to me when I did it. Weapons basically policy voted me and refused to move it for an entire day phase.

[BBM]

It was a bad lynch, but like I've told you several times Boron, people have been lynched for far worse reasons before. I won't say that your anger was unprovoked but it was also an overreaction to an internet game. Mistakes happen, and yeah, Elie and SB jumping on that wagon as town was bad, but what Prims said wasn't wrong. D1 is when most mislynches happen, and unless no lynching is going to get you something better, which is pretty rare, pulling your punches as town, ESPECIALLY on D1, is pretty useless and worse than a mislynch.

And Boron, what everyone is saying here is that pretty much every other person who self-voted as town was also wrong to do so, so your defence that people have done it in the past isn't a good one. As for the fact that you were going to get lynched anyways, that's not the point. Why are you against getting mislynched in the first place? Because it results in a lower chance of your team winning. And that's what happens when you self-vote.

[Prims]

If you guys aren't going to acknowledge that you guys had some part in driving Mancer and me to that point, I really have nothing more to say.

The thing about town driving you to the point of self-voting is that while we may have played poorly, you and Mancer were the ones who chose to react like that. Nobody was actually trying to provoke you, we were just lynching the player we thought was scum. Even if we went overboard at some points, your slot was ultimately the one responsible for the outburst.

Fair enough about the post limit, I didn't consider that when responding.

BBM is correct wrt self-voting as town. I would've modkilled you for not playing to win if you got lynched over it had I been the mod. eclipse didn't include a play2win rule, though.

[eclipse]

The thing about town driving you to the point of self-voting is that while we may have played poorly, you and Mancer were the ones who chose to react like that. Nobody was actually trying to provoke you, we were just lynching the player we thought was scum. Even if we went overboard at some points, your slot was ultimately the one responsible for the outburst.

Fair enough about the post limit, I didn't consider that when responding.

BBM is correct wrt self-voting as town. I would've modkilled you for not playing to win if you got lynched over it had I been the mod. eclipse didn't include a play2win rule, though.

If people are getting upset to the point where they are considering quitting the game, that is a sign that you're doing something wrong as a player. I see a distinct lack of apologies from one side of the argument.