Tales of Symphonia Mafia Ver. 1.0

[Prims]

I'm less bugged by CR sheeping (didn't find it scummy) and more bugged by how she switched immediately once somebody said she was sheeping.

[Shin]

Woo, only two pages overnight.

##Unvote

@CR and kinda BBM: SK vibes? I offered opinions because I was asked. Admittedly, I was clutching at straws, but your entire case against me seems to be these "vibes" and my one meaningful post. When you were questioned about your voting, most of your response is all about me. Quite a few of your posts are "I have a bad feeling about Shin". You were also quick to unvote BBM, and then funnily enough he joins you in making a case against me. Funny, no? Plus, he's happy to dismiss cases against you in favour of chasing me!

@Helios: My reply to the Eli thing is more my incompetence than anything else :P. SB hasn't responded yet, so I'll see how that goes. It's not a strong case, but the "Marth, how do you see me?" question still bugs me. This is kinda addressed to Prims too.

##Vote: BBM

Kinda addressed above, but in #149, he's very happy to label CR as newbie town and myself as newbie scum. All he's done is say that CR is new, not that she's particularly suspicious.

[Jaybee]

I do believe I DID state that I had problems with BBM and SB right before my recent post? Honestly, I swear, sometimes I feel people don't read and just want to accuse me.

Uh ok, I'm gonna have 6 players vote for you with same reasons. Two reasons in fact. 'You suck you aren't contributing' based off of the few posts you have, or 'your contributions suck.' Educate me on how you're going to get reads on all them players that just SAY that and do nothing else. Like, I have a life too, just because my no. of posts are lesser than yours or Prims' or BBM's doesn't mean I'm not trying hard.

so much emotion

There's more than enough to get reads on people who all say the same thing. It's easy enough to conclude that some people are sheeping and some people are actually thinking properly, so I don't see what the problem is here.

In what I've seen in mafia, newb!scum tend to be highly paranoid, and tend to waffle big time. Look at me in GSM, or Scorri(her second game) and Timp in Schoolteacher, or Subieko in CPM. They also kinda give excuses for not contributing or something, I dunno, I've generally been accurate in guessing newb!scum and newb!town.

Newb!Town are apathetic and they don't really have an idea of what to do. Like Aere, Mancer(I read him right until he did something very unexpected) and Lucina(who I lynched for info lol). CR fits into this category, IMO.

too much meta is unhealthy for everyone

1. While I don't solely rely on gut or meta, meta subconsciously influences everyone's reads. If I had to look at the current situation in a truly objective fashion I would declare almost the whole wagon on me as scum simply for stacking votes which reasoning I don't like(and you didn't like either.) Meta gives me the idea of the players' thinking.

2. It is perfectly normal to have similar thoughts to the opinions of others, especially when one's timezone is like, 12 hours ahead of the rest of the players. YOU of all people should know that. Fun Fact: I haven't seen you poke at JB even though his reasoning for voting me is very similar to yours and scorri's. Or for that matter, the fact that his only contribution has been voting me. Any thought about JB?

1. there's like 6 scum members? ok. This first part feels very... off to me, not sure how to word it.

2. this is actually a pretty good reason why you have so many votes on you

[charlie_]

I asked the question just because I wanted Marth to justify his vote. Nothing more.

Going to reread.

[charlie_]

also Marth, defending yourself by attacking other players really isn't doing you any favours.

[Ciarre]

@CR and kinda BBM: SK vibes? I offered opinions because I was asked. Admittedly, I was clutching at straws, but your entire case against me seems to be these "vibes" and my one meaningful post. When you were questioned about your voting, most of your response is all about me. Quite a few of your posts are "I have a bad feeling about Shin".

I didn't want to say this because it's somewhat rulebending, but I think it's okay since it wasn't directly towards the content of the mafia. In Skype you said that you "have a plan" and you "played to win" irt this game, and that's what gave me weird vibes.

If I was voting you and I was questioned about you, of course I'd respond about mostly you.

You were also quick to unvote BBM, and then funnily enough he joins you in making a case against me. Funny, no? Plus, he's happy to dismiss cases against you in favour of chasing me!

what

My first vote against BBM wasn't serious.

[Ciarre]

also no I didn't exactly mean SK, meant more of a killing role in general, since it's easier to "have a plan" that way

[j00]

This is so messy

Shinori ISO's in OP please

Marth had some more reads but keeps saying "I need more posts" on some people. It'd be nice if you just commented on what you've got currently. Also spending a lot more effort on defensive posts and a lot of emotion and ranting, none which are helping his case. I don't read off emotion alone, but it means a big part of his posts is unnecessary fluff. Scumhunt more plz

I'd like longer posts from SB, who've pretty much been tunneling Marth.

Obviam's not here

Not finding Shin and CR scummy at the moment, more n00bs than anything else. Jumping around with votes and not addressing all of discussion, but at this point they've been mostly been reduced to defending their actions. I'd like to have longer posts with reads and reasoning, since I admit they haven't exactly indepth so far.

[Aleph]

Haven't reread the thread yet (just woke up whee) but here's some things

- newbs are pretty transparent and their slips are more prevalent, so if you're suspicious of one you're probably right. YMMV ofc

- There is no such thing as too much meta.

- As a corollary, JB is a short little shrimpy dork who is always wrong always. ALWAYS

- Bizz is scum. (omg bizz u suck)

That said CR seems intelligent and probably wouldn't make the same mistakes most new players would so whatever.

wtf is tunneling, is that what you nerds call it when someone rides your ass about unimportant shit to make you say stupid stuff? Wouldn't it make more sense to aggro someone who's more susceptible (like bizzu)

Is there anyone that hasn't voted? I noticed the votals stopped including non voters but I wasn't sure if it was because those people finally voted.

[Percivalé]

Obviam are you lyncher? Lol

Also uh something came up and I'm going to be gone for another few hours before I can answer some mote questions, sorry about that.

[BBM]

Tunneling is just hounding one person and ignoring what everybody else in the game is doing or saying. Also what does YMMV mean?

@Shin- I think what both of you are doing is suspicious, but what CR is doing is more likely to be something that a new player might do regardless of their alignment, and what you're doing is more likely to be something that scum might do instead of town. Also, if I like my case against you more than I like my case against her, why shouldn't I go after you over her?

Obviam still hasn't offered any actual reads at all.

[Aleph]

reread time

Okay so there's some policy votes (a fuckton of them), one of which actually says "policy vote" in the fucking post.

Then bizzu is all shitpost

Thomas is like "wtf lady ##vote:you" for it, understandable

Levity retorts with some nonsense about her PE (which usually MN) and the policy votes continue. notably jb voted for iris because he's gay for her

Marth chimes in with some crappy logic for voting BBM and BBM points out how silly it is to be suspicious of someone without switching your throwaway vote to them. Bizz insists it wasn't a throwaway vote and that her reasons are "in her notes" (what notes, no one's made a meaningful post yet).

There's some back and forth with BBM, Bizz and Prims about how silly bizz is being and she says a lot of things like "prims omguses when he's scum" that are just contrived. Does he do that? No, because Prims is smart and will have stopped doing it by now if he ever did it before. These posts just look like "trying too hard", and not the newb!town kind. She even has to comment about Iris's miller claim like it's a big deal and more important than the only real conversation that had occurred in the thread prior. We see what Iris said you don't have to parrot her

When Helios returns he does what appears to me to be defending bizz shoddily (obv scumbuddies). Not sure why he had to bring attention to Iris again (other scumbuddy). Helios's reasoning for his vote is weak in general, describing typical town behaviour (indecisiveness is p town) as scummy and saying the stronger argument against bizz was weak so he could snipe marth. Not feeling the scorricrap either. Marth gets onto her for it here.

SB accuses Marth of coasting despite that Marth just did some scumhunting, but he makes an interesting point about scum not drawing attention to themselves early. Well that's too bad, drawing bizz's kind of attention to herself is either scummy or causing unnecessary infighting, and both hurt the town. Knock it off or dangle in the gallows. More importantly, the other defenses for it have been weaker than SB's simple note about attention drawing...and none of them came from Bizz.

Now JB points out what I thought was immediately obvious - Helios voted for himself during RVS, so it was probably him just dicking around. I would go so far as to say he really was dicking around, and that's why I'm suspicious of him later claiming he "did it to get a reaction". No you fuckin' didn't. You did it to dick around and then changed your mind about it when convenient.

Marth jumps on SB's shit for being terrible a bit after and I have to agree so far.

Mancer spews some shit against Marth after that which isn't all that different from his weak play in the game we were just in, so I have to chalk it up as BS for now. BS which was on SB's side. That's like a pun or something right? Mancer later accuses marth of "popping in and out" which, given how I've been playing, is just utter crap.

Everyone giving shit on Marth continues for a while and no one really contributes anything that would incriminate him except that he's "overreacting" to what is obviously bullshit to begin with.

Boron and SB have been the first to present votals, a typical "I'm totally town, look how nice I am helping out with votals!" move that, admittedly, is usually sincere (unless I'm the one doing it :D)...but SB's timing is shit.

Regarding Shin's early activity, I'd guess he's new enough to not have a feel for the pace of SF mafia and simply didn't realize how late he was.

Iris says that the "marty wagon votes appear tacked on". When I made my first post this was also how I felt, and actually all the stuff in this post had been spinning in my head at the time though I couldn't remember it clearly enough to write it all down. I'm good at absorbing information and getting reads on people and not so much at showing my work, which was the same problem I always had in math class

Not sure why Iris didn't come back and edit her post to bold her vote. Something important like that probably would have been granted an exception by the host.

When elieson arrives, he makes some conclusions I don't agree with, but does so with stronger evidence and detail than any other post in the game prior. He's clearly playing to win and is going to be a key player for whoever's side he's on. I suggest we let him do his thing for a while and see if it benefits us in case he's a power townie.

BBM rips on CR for agreeing with mancer too easily, which is totally valid because agreeing with mancer is near impossible. He is just not an agreeable dude. In general, I've been getting town vibes from BBM and Marth and scummy feelings from the people targeting them.

To answer Bizz, my 3 people was actually an estimate because I had been skimming. The people playing poorly are you, mancer and SB. CR as well, but yesterday I had actually skipped over CR's posts since they didn't seem very contributory. Seems I was right. Incidentally CR starts floundering a bit later. Oh better not vote for that marth guy I'll look scummy

Having played with j00 finally I know he's a pretty rational dude, so it's not surprising he busted in ranting about how shitty the RVS was.

Nothing really interesting happens until Prims returns. He's playing pretty solid and I'd suggest paying attention to what he says as well, like with Eli. Since, you know, they're actually playing.

A bit later BBM puts a solid vote on Shin. All I want to say about this is that if we decide on likely scum to vote for, we can't have our vote divided. I don't think Shin is near scummy enough to warrant being voted for yet. I'd recommend voting for someone more flagrant. If you want to propose someone that isn't someone I would agree with then you'll need to explain why they're so much worse, because at the moment I see plenty of candidates scummier than Shin (granted, he's not doing so well for himself).

Some people have noticed that CR mentioned getting SK vibes. That does seem a bit ridiculous, like she might know something she shouldn't. Unlike trying to distract people with a miller claim by Iris, pointing out that CR mentioned an SK is actually worth paying attention to. Given that she's supposedly new I can't imagine why she'd say something like that unless she's either in cahoots or is completely fumbling around. Actually, I might have to retract my comment about her seeming smart, because she might be in general, but apparently not when it comes to mafia.

Marth catches bizz for being hypocritical about taking things seriously. One of many things she's done that indicate she's dripping with scum. He also points out that he has been giving opinions and people are simply ignoring them for the sake of giving him shit. HMMM why was I one of the few people to even notice that? All the straw grasping was pretty obvious come on people

Helios raises an interesting point about the Shin vote by BBM; I was saying that it was a shitty vote because it would likely divide the town, but if that was his intention then we have a real scumtell. no this does not mean I'll start being gay for helios, I still think he's full of shit

OC in a NOC game. Disappointing. ANY discussion about the game can give reads. ANY OC, even if it's just saying "I'm playing to win", can affect the game, and you just admitted that it did. Host should punish this. I'm sick of host interference, and letting something like this slip isn't all that different from leading the players with weird questions and comments like Life did in OC basics. Yes, he basically told me Shinori and SB were the other scum team and I refused to act on it. But yeah Shinori you should do something about the OC.

Anyway, fuck you BBM. Here are my reads I have LOADS of them and did I not tell you to be patient? get at me

[Add Reply]

[Percivalé]

I really don't appreciate how much you're trying to get under my skin. Also making a bigass solid post doesn't make up for the zero shit you've done until this point in the game

[Aleph]

I'm really not, but I'm enjoying that it happened anyway. We're in a mafurs game, shit happens. Go read what I said to Boron in OC basics. This is a forum game; I do things differently here.

[Percivalé]

You're not actually bothering me that much. I think you're scum because you've been pulling a lot of the classic moves and I can kindly show you once I'm not on my phone, but you've been playing a lot weaker than you give yourself credit for. Plus we're not lynching me today, so your vote is useless right now actually. It's a nice cover but it's not going to work.

Anyway, I have some BBM content to reread too but I do think he's still scum, and I saw him pull something else that just convinces me more

[BBM]

I didn't like that large post by Obviam at all, because he basically just gave a summary of the thread's activity to this point and then whether or not he agreed with what the other person said. In fact, the only original thing I got from that entire thing was that he thinks that me and Marth are town and the people targeting us are suspicious. And then despite saying that he finds me town, he says that Helios's point is interesting and if true could make me scum, so it feels to me like an attempt to push the mislynch on me while still being on my side after I flip town. The entire post is just piggybacking off other people's reads.

[Percivalé]

Plus the only actual scumread I see listed in that post is me so lol

[Percivalé]

His only original scumread*

I don't think he's really trying tbh

[Helios]

Why do you think I'm trying too hard with my cases and not being legit, Helios? I can understand why you think that the case against Shin might be taking advantage of the fact that he's a new player, but I'm not going to give him or CR a pass for behaviour I think is scummy.

You mentioned that he did stuff, which is true, but you were still pretty vague about it. You described his vote on SB but that's about the farthest you went with your vote. It looked good at first glance, but looking at the vote itself, the situation of the game, etc, it gives me a weird vibe. Your reaction makes it more interesting as well.

1. While I don't solely rely on gut or meta, meta subconsciously influences everyone's reads. If I had to look at the current situation in a truly objective fashion I would declare almost the whole wagon on me as scum simply for stacking votes which reasoning I don't like(and you didn't like either.) Meta gives me the idea of the players' thinking.

2. It is perfectly normal to have similar thoughts to the opinions of others, especially when one's timezone is like, 12 hours ahead of the rest of the players. YOU of all people should know that. Fun Fact: I haven't seen you poke at JB even though his reasoning for voting me is very similar to yours and scorri's. Or for that matter, the fact that his only contribution has been voting me. Any thought about JB?

Speaking of which, which notion do you feel stronger about? Your earlier notion that one of BBM and I is scum, or that we're scumbuddies? And depending on that notion, do your reads change? Would like a link(reads shall we say) between this post of yours and your earlier content post.

1. That's fine, but half your reads are solely based on player meta or other meta (pretty much everyone but SB and BBM). So some of your cases aren't really solid. Most of the time you're attacking people on your wagon as well rather than scumhunting in other directions. In fact, you have a high defense:scumhunting ratio which isn't helping your case.

2. I'm well aware of that, and it's not a huge deal that you have similar opinions with other people who get to see some of the content first. However, you have barely any original content to begin with, which is weird since you should be able to provide some with your POV. Attacking JB because I didn't touch on him doesn't help your case either, and is actually another scummy thing from you so far. What does my thoughts on JB have anything to do with this?

You're trying to divert from the question even more now rather than answer it directly now, but I'll bite. Originally I thought only one of you was scum because I didn't think that scum would bring that much attention to themselves and to each other. It also seems like BBM lately has been distancing himself from you lately rather than attacking you. So at the moment I think you're buddies since you've both been pretty scummy so far, and I think that with all this pressure on you right now Marth you're going to try and bus your buddy to gain some towncred, while BBM is going to try and avoid direct confrontation from you so that there's a higher possibility of a mislynch (like the easy case on Shin).

@Helios: My reply to the Eli thing is more my incompetence than anything else :P. SB hasn't responded yet, so I'll see how that goes. It's not a strong case, but the "Marth, how do you see me?" question still bugs me. This is kinda addressed to Prims too.

By now you could have a much stronger case on people then that though. You could add in a lot more input than you have been so far. For example, what are your thoughts on some of the bigger wagons that are going on right now?

When Helios returns he does what appears to me to be defending bizz shoddily (obv scumbuddies). Not sure why he had to bring attention to Iris again (other scumbuddy). Helios's reasoning for his vote is weak in general, describing typical town behaviour (indecisiveness is p town) as scummy and saying the stronger argument against bizz was weak so he could snipe marth. Not feeling the scorricrap either. Marth gets onto her for it here.

Now JB points out what I thought was immediately obvious - Helios voted for himself during RVS, so it was probably him just dicking around. I would go so far as to say he really was dicking around, and that's why I'm suspicious of him later claiming he "did it to get a reaction". No you fuckin' didn't. You did it to dick around and then changed your mind about it when convenient.

Boron and SB have been the first to present votals, a typical "I'm totally town, look how nice I am helping out with votals!" move that, admittedly, is usually sincere (unless I'm the one doing it :D)...but SB's timing is shit.

BBM rips on CR for agreeing with mancer too easily, which is totally valid because agreeing with mancer is near impossible. He is just not an agreeable dude. In general, I've been getting town vibes from BBM and Marth and scummy feelings from the people targeting them.

Nothing really interesting happens until Prims returns. He's playing pretty solid and I'd suggest paying attention to what he says as well, like with Eli. Since, you know, they're actually playing.

Helios raises an interesting point about the Shin vote by BBM; I was saying that it was a shitty vote because it would likely divide the town, but if that was his intention then we have a real scumtell. no this does not mean I'll start being gay for helios, I still think he's full of shit

Wait so since your post is all kinda your thoughts from reading the beginning of the game to this point now, what are your current reads on me and BBM (because you start off saying you think I'm scummy for "defending" Bizz but later admit that I made a good point against BBM, whereas you say you feel town!BBM but later think he may have given a scumtell if you and I right about BBM's vote on Shin). Would like some clarification pls since everything is kinda all over the place but somewhat organized in your reads post.

I wasn't intending to defend Bizz, it's just what my read on her was. As the game goes on I feel even more confident in that read and know that it'll be practically 100% when I see her reactions when people decide to pressure her for not doing much since the beginning of the game.

This is #SFMafia son the players are here are hall of fame caliber. Nah but really it was a reaction test because I don't think people vote themselves in RVS very often so I wanted to see what people would think of that, and I figured it'd help us get out of RVS faster which is always good.

So wait is SB posting votals scummy to you or giving sincere town vibes? Confused since you switched things up midway.

Do you feel like everyone on the Marth and BBM wagon is scummy then, and that none of them make good points against them?

You're gay for Prims and Elie right now aren't you.

You're totally being tsundere right now and I find it kinda cute.

Also overall I'm getting a slight scum vibe on you but it's not that strong. Tbh most of it really just has to do with the fact that you keep trying to piss off Bizz, which is a scum move simply because town doesn't really have a need to anger someone in order to get reactions out of them. Scum do it much more often in order to get good townie players to slip up, which they then jump on and push an easy mislynch, and when the person flips town they'll just say "well you shouldn't have reacted that way!" and laugh internally.

[Sunwoo]

Boron and SB have been the first to present votals, a typical "I'm totally town, look how nice I am helping out with votals!" move that, admittedly, is usually sincere

... You do realize that I'm an IO and not playing, right?

I can stop doing votals if you guys like.

IN OTHER WORDS NOT PLAYING.

[Percivalé]

I think Obviam is scummy for more than trying to piss me off lol

Sorry for not doing much atm I got a little tied up in personal stuff

[Elieson]

I was working on a detailed post and my phone rebooted the page after I got a phone call. I've been dealing with a surprise passing of a close family friend's parent since 4 am and have been doing my best to just focus on that for today...so I do apologize for being even more minimal in activity that I had anticipated.

If Shinori wants to sub me out he can but I won't drop out completely so I'll leave that to his discretion. I wouldn't overly complain though, but I won't leave you all high and dry without a say.

---

I actually have some things to discuss though.

One is BBM and his vote hop to the easy Shin. He calls him out as scummy for having no content, then subtly defends CR as being less scummy for simply sheeping. Isn't what CR is doing considered just one step further down the scum trail compared to Shin? Shin may be doing jack squat, but CR is voting for players using borrowed reasoning, further implying that she hasn't got a clue nor real reads to back we vote up.

That being said, Shin is playing like Shin: scummy, mildly active here while active elsewhere (from what I've gathered anyway), and full of irrelevant contribution. With as late as he is with his posts, he could have SOMETHING to offer, but no, just Shin style pokes that don't really lead forward in any way.

I also can't say much about Obviam, because his massive posts really don't shed much light as to actual reads, but he is pointing fingers at a few players indirectly (Those voting Marth/BBM), Bizz (I'm guessing Meta, since I've yet to play with him and bizz together) and CR (her SK callout).

Though there is an interesting point about CR. she does seem to want to keep low on the spotlight now, ever since her ball drop on SK!Shin. I didn't really pay much attention to it earlier, but now I'm wondering if she knows something regarding SK (because there's no way she knows how an SK would act after a game or two). She isn't doing much overall, but is the only player to even bring up third parties. But it's not that she mentioned third party, it's that she mentioned SK specifically. I'm really unsure how to interpret it, but I think my primary read on her being validated as threatening can really only be confirmed by multiple kills coming into d2.

I'm bouncing back and forth on a vote towards Shin and a vote towards BBM, but I'm very dissatisfied with his specific case on Shin primarily due to his soft defense of CR.

[BBM]

Voting for people using borrowed reasoning isn't inherently scummy.

[BBM]

Also, my stance on CR is just my reasoning for voting Shin over her. My stance on CR has nothing whatsoever to do with why I find Shin scummy.

[Elieson]

Why do you think I'm trying too hard with my cases and not being legit, Helios? I can understand why you think that the case against Shin might be taking advantage of the fact that he's a new player, but I'm not going to give him or CR a pass for behaviour I think is scummy.

I think Shin is more likely to be scum than CR right now, because I think Shin ignoring 90% of the thread's activity and choosing to nitpick at little things is worse than CR sheeping. Sheeping is something a lot of newbs do, whether they're town or scum, because they're not really sure what to say or do or how to scumhunt. But the nitpicking at little things is something scum do a lot more often than town because they don't want to associate themselves much with the big wagons or actually contribute.

Tunneling is just hounding one person and ignoring what everybody else in the game is doing or saying. Also what does YMMV mean?

@Shin- I think what both of you are doing is suspicious, but what CR is doing is more likely to be something that a new player might do regardless of their alignment, and what you're doing is more likely to be something that scum might do instead of town. Also, if I like my case against you more than I like my case against her, why shouldn't I go after you over her?

Obviam still hasn't offered any actual reads at all.

Well which is it? Is she scummy for doing scummy things, but not that scummy? Or is she noob!EitherSide and you have no read on CR at all?

You've covered different sides of CR within like 5 posts and they all imply varying degrees of scumminess. If you could put something definitive together instead of bouncing from newbcard!CR to scummy but not that scummy!CR to not using newbcard!Shin/CR?