Has Fire Emblem ascended to...Godhood?

[Pervio]

And?

Its Fire Emblem. I wasnt expecting A Song of Ice and Fire style character study.

And...?

I'm sorry, but what more do you want? It's a valid criticism, but you seem to be under the impression one is "hate on a perfectly great game" just because they're stating a criticism, which is not the same as hating.

Also considering it's an RPG, characters and story are something that should be looked into.

[sumerian99]

This is literally the worst paragraph I have ever read. I have read Nazi propaganda less offensive to my soul than what you have just vomited onto the page.

Look, I'll preface this by saying I've not played FE13; in all likelihood, I never will, as I have no interest in buying a console with the main gimmick of 'triggers epilepsy'. But I don't like the gimmicky, skill-focused turn it seems to be taking. I mean, the entire point of FE is that it's simple and intuitive; you don't have to balance numbers, and can focus on strategy. But my concern is that that's been abandoned in favour of a very optimisation-focused engine.

BrightBow, get over yourself, I agree with your sentiment but pegasus knights have worn shit clothing since forever.

No offense man, but before judging if FE has become a trigger epilepsy focused on numbers and not strategy I'd suggest you to play Lunatic (or Lunatic +) Classic. You WILL need strategy and you CANNOT overpower the game that easily with so called ''optimized support teams''. Sure, creating strong teams is a great, necessary asset, but was it not the case in the past games? Supports were quite important for combat! They always were for people who sought to do playthroughs in specific ways.

I admit a greater emphasis has been put on support on this game. Complaining about it is your right, but saying it downright kills the strategy aspect without even having played the game? Common man...

As for skills, well, dont tell me triggers didnt influence the game or didnt feel satisfying in PoR or RD...

[Loki Laufeyson]

Since when has Fire Emblem been about super in-depth characters? Aside from a handful of characters from each game (namely the main characters), everyone else is pretty much down to an archetype. Which is why im not understanding why people are going on about it with this game. In every Fire Emblem game theres always the following:

Meek girl.

Tomboy.

Ladies Man.

Tough Cookie.

Super Serious Faced Myrmidon.

Wallflower Dude.

Cranky Mage.

Girl Next Door.

Gladiator/Lives for Fighting Guy.

Klutzy Chick.

Loud Mouth Princess.

etc and so forth.

So why bring it up now? If you dont like the archetypal character traits found in this game, you arent gonna find yourself enjoying the other characters from the other games too much.

[Strunk]

The fact that there might be good things about this game is what I'm worried about since I would say that the art goes indeed a long way to discredit a lot of the things that the game has to offer in regards to story and characterization.

Stories and settings need believability, which is unnecessary strained by having people go into combat using a wardrobe that can impossibly allow movement or armor that can impossibly protect.

Especially in a series like Fire Emblem, where death tends to be more then a minor inconvenience and happens outside of the script.

Also, there should be no place in the mainstream for sexualized little girls.

Okay, you think the artstyle discredits the good things about this game. I don't. I personally like the artstyle, and I think it makes the game better. We'll have to disagree on that part.

As for the believability. There's a thing called the "willing suspension of disbelief". Every single person that has ever lived has one. You use it to ignore the things in stories that don't make sense. I've read a ton of stories that have elements that don't make sense, and have still been extremely good. Such as every single Fire Emblem game. My point is, if you take every single story that has elements that don't make sense, and forgo reading\playing\watching those stories, you'll never experience anything, ever.

As for the way some characters dress... is that really so important to you? I mean, obviously it is, or else you wouldn't bring it up. But, it's not just past Fire Emblem games that have stuff like that. Games made in every country have that kind of fanservice. In fact, most television shows, books, movies, and games have that type of thing. I can't help that this game also has it, all I can say is, don't let it get to you. Ignore it. If you don't, you won't be able to enjoy any story, ever, because they all have that type of thing.

As for Nowi... there are far worse ways they could have made a character like her. She's not actually that bad, in my opinion, although we'll probably have to disagree on this, as well. Also, everybody says she's sexualized, but honestly, there's not really anything about her that's sexy. She's just not wearing enough clothes. In my opinion, that's not a turn on, no matter what age you are.

[BrightBow]

Erm, apart from Tharja, Cherche and Nowi, I dont see what you're talking about.

As for being worse then everything else, I was particularly referring to the fact that the last time I had seen a girl like Nowi, it was in No more Heroes with the Bizarre Jelly Girls anime girls (By the same artist. He seems to have recycled these designs for Nowi). They were an exaggerated parody of the Otaku culture's tendency to sexualize cute little girls.

But thanks to Fire Emblem, this parody is now kinda outdated. Thanks to Fire Emblem, little girls as sex objects is now perfectly mainstream.

Yes, I think that's worse then the whole competition.

Edited February 6, 2013 by BrightBow

[Pervio]

Since when has Fire Emblem been about super in-depth characters? Aside from a handful of characters from each game (namely the main characters), everyone else is pretty much down to an archetype. Which is why im not understanding why people are going on about it with this game. In every Fire Emblem game theres always the following:

Meek girl.

Tomboy.

Ladies Man.

Tough Cookie.

Super Serious Faced Myrmidon.

Wallflower Dude.

Cranky Mage.

Girl Next Door.

Gladiator/Lives for Fighting Guy.

Klutzy Chick.

Loud Mouth Princess.

etc and so forth.

So why bring it up now? If you dont like the archetypal character traits found in this game, you arent gonna find yourself enjoying the other characters from the other games too much.

No one ever said it has. It has always been a problem and bringing up now is better than never. I actually, have been finding this a problem since I first started the series. A problem is something there to be improved, so saying nothing is silly. Fire Emblem characters in any of the games can be improved. Though with the cast as big as the Tellius series, that does seem difficult to do, which is why I applaud Awakening limiting the cast of characters.

[Strunk]

No one ever said it has. It has always been a problem and bringing up now is better than never. I actually, have been finding this a problem since I first started the series. A problem is something there to be improved, so saying nothing is silly. Fire Emblem characters in any of the games can be improved. Though with the cast as big as the Tellius series, that does seem difficult to do, which is why I applaud Awakening limiting the cast of characters.

Honestly, most characters are archetypes and stereotypes. As I stated above, it's not just games, either. Pretty much every single character in any work of fiction is a stereotype. It's just that different works of fiction use these stereotypes in different ways, which make for different kinds of characters. Some people will end up liking these characters, and some people will end up hating them. In the end, saying the way Fire Emblem characters are handled is bad is just as wrong as saying they're perfect. It's not that they're good or bad characters, it's whether they appeal to you, personally.

[sumerian99]

As for being worse then everything else, I was particularly referring to the fact that the last time I had seen a girl like Nowi, it was in No more Heroes with the Bizarre Jelly Girls anime girls (By the same artist. He seems to have recycled these designs for Nowi). They were an exaggerated parody of the Otaku culture's tendency to sexualize cute little girls.

But thanks to Fire Emblem, this parody is now kinda outdated. Thanks to Fire Emblem, little girls as sex objects is now perfectly mainstream.

Yes, I think that's worse then the whole competition.

Would you base your judgement of all the rest of the female cast upon your judgement of Nowi (which is ONE character) alone?

[Loki Laufeyson]

No one ever said it has. It has always been a problem and bringing up now is better than never. I actually, have been finding this a problem since I first started the series. A problem is something there to be improved, so saying nothing is silly. Fire Emblem characters in any of the games can be improved. Though with the cast as big as the Tellius series, that does seem difficult to do, which is why I applaud Awakening limiting the cast of characters.

Well sure. I suppose. But if i get a couple of characters within a cast of dozens, that have pretty great character development, im fine with it. To be fair to the writers, fleshing out dozens and dozens of characters is pretty tough. So they have to give the focus on the main characters such as the lords and their immediate team members. (Ike, Mist, Soren, Titania, and peeps like Elincia for example.)

Edited February 6, 2013 by Virion

[sumerian99]

Well sure. I suppose. But if i get a couple of characters within a cast of dozens, that have pretty great character development, im fine with it. To be fair to the writers, fleshing out dozens and dozens of characters is pretty tough. So they have to give the focus on the main characters such as the lords and their immediate team members. (Ike, Mist, Soren, Titania, and peeps like Elincia for example.)

I agree. Developping a cast of 35+ something characters over the course of one single game is a pretty though challenge. We'd need entire brick books if we truly wanted to develop each single character to epic proportions, each with their own storyline further exploring their personality, adventures and changes over the course of years.

Wouldnt that be asking for a bit much from videogame developers?

Anyhow, going to bed. See ya tomorrow people! : D

Edited February 6, 2013 by sumerian99

[BrightBow]

As for the believability. There's a thing called the "willing suspension of disbelief". Every single person that has ever lived has one. You use it to ignore the things in stories that don't make sense. I've read a ton of stories that have elements that don't make sense, and have still been extremely good. Such as every single Fire Emblem game. My point is, if you take every single story that has elements that don't make sense, and forgo reading\playing\watching those stories, you'll never experience anything, ever.

Suspension of disbelief is great to allow fantastic worlds to exist that contain unreal things like dragons and magic.

I think that it is a waste to use it to imagine that somebody can move in high heels or by accepting that a male warrior needs full plate armor while a female warrior somehow does just as well by covering only little parts of her body.

As for the way some characters dress... is that really so important to you? I mean, obviously it is, or else you wouldn't bring it up. But, it's not just past Fire Emblem games that have stuff like that. Games made in every country have that kind of fanservice. In fact, most television shows, books, movies, and games have that type of thing. I can't help that this game also has it, all I can say is, don't let it get to you. Ignore it. If you don't, you won't be able to enjoy any story, ever, because they all have that type of thing.

Personally I decided not to tolerate this stuff anymore. I mean, left ignored this stuff just keeps getting worse. For example it's absurd that characters like Ivy and Talim from Soul Calibur kept getting more and more sexualized with each installment, even though they were wearing so little to begin with.

People seem to take it for granted that this stuff exist and that "sex sells", yet nobody seems to actually want it.

And I don't see why. They can't really show anything anyway, even when aiming for an M rating. And actual porn is widely available for free, which probably includes drawings of every female Fire Emblem character.

In other words: This fanservice serves no purpose besides making the characters in question less convincing. Stories end up worse for no actually benefit.

Edited February 6, 2013 by BrightBow

[Pervio]

Honestly, most characters are archetypes and stereotypes. As I stated above, it's not just games, either. Pretty much every single character in any work of fiction is a stereotype. It's just that different works of fiction use these stereotypes in different ways, which make for different kinds of characters. Some people will end up liking these characters, and some people will end up hating them. In the end, saying the way Fire Emblem characters are handled is bad is just as wrong as saying they're perfect. It's not that they're good or bad characters, it's whether they appeal to you, personally.

I did mention that man, haha. Fire Emblem, especially with a cast of such a large number is riddled with archetypes and stereotypes, just like a lot of series, but that is even more reason to voice complaints, in my opinion. Severa's entire personality just looks like it was made to fit the common ground of what people consider tsunderes, however unlike ones such as Asuna Kagurazaka or Misaka Mikoto, they have development which makes them define characters not clinging to an archetype as their character. Also, I never said they were handled bad, although I do think clinging to an archetype is a poor choice to do.

Well sure. I suppose. But if i get a couple of characters within a cast of dozens, that have pretty great character development, im fine with it. To be fair to the writers, fleshing out dozens and dozens of characters is pretty tough. So they have to give the focus on the main characters such as the lords and their immediate team members. (Ike, Mist, Soren, Titania, and peeps like Elincia for example.)

I agree. Developping a cast of 35+ something characters over the course of one single game is a pretty though challenge. We'd need entire brick books if we truly wanted to develop each single character to epic proportions, each with their own storyline further exploring their personality, adventures and changes over the course of years.

You two are completely right! It is hard to do and what people consider good characters are always subjective. I personally find Kirito from Sword Art Online a terrible character riddled with the idea of creating a "badass" as his only appeal and lack of development, which I guess, a lot of main characters fall under. However they're actually very popular characters, regardless of development!

As you all said, it's hard, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted. Leaving a characters personality at a single trait or stereotype/archetype is a common thing, but really, there are a lot of stories that have casts of characters towering over Fire Emblem Awakening and generally give pretty great development. Although to be fair, they are different mediums, so comparing a long running manga vs a video game is unfair.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Pervio

[Strunk]

Suspension of disbelief is great to allow fantastic worlds to exist that contain unreal things like dragons and magic.

I think that it is a waste to use it to imagine that somebody can move in high heels or by accepting that a male warrior needs full plate armor while a female warrior somehow does just as well by covering only little parts of her body.

Personally I decided not to tolerate this stuff anymore.

People seem to take it for granted that this stuff exist and that "sex sells", yet nobody seems to actually want it.

And I don't see why. They can't really show anything anyway, even when aiming for an M rating. And actual porn is widely available for free these days, which probably includes drawings of every female Fire Emblem character.

In other words: This fanservice serves no purpose besides making the characters in question less convincing. Stories end up worse for no actually benefit.

Yes, but singling out just Fire Emblem Awakening, and disliking it because of a universal annoyance, doesn't seem fair to me. It's everywhere, and it's probably going to continue being everywhere from this point on. You really won't have any fun with anything if you can't accept it. Also, saying a story is worse because of how the characters dress is completely subjective. For a lot of people, it wouldn't affect the story in any way, and it definitely wouldn't make it worse for them.

And, to be fair, none of the characters that actually use their own, human body to fight, dress like you say, except Vaike, who happens to be male. Panna and Nowi both transform, meaning their clothing no longer factor into their defenses, Cherche rides a dragon, meaning a good deal of her defense comes from that instead of her clothing, which actually happens to cover her front pretty well, if not her back. Tharja uses magic, which magically heals her (or at least, some of her available magic does), while also, unless I'm mistaken here, not actually having great deal of defense. Definitely not as much as an armored unit, and even if she did, you could simply say it's because of magic, if you were so inclined.

Plus, isn't it equally strange that, if you grind characters enough, someone wearing a robe can have better defenses than someone wearing full plate armor It's the same basic principal, but nobody complains about it.

I have nothing to say about the high-heel part, because I honestly haven't spent much time looking at the characters' feet, have no idea which characters wear them, and have utterly no idea why anybody anywhere would ever wear them.

[Parrhesia]

No offense man, but before judging if FE has become a trigger epilepsy focused on numbers and not strategy I'd suggest you to play Lunatic (or Lunatic +) Classic. You WILL need strategy and you CANNOT overpower the game that easily with so called ''optimized support teams''. Sure, creating strong teams is a great, necessary asset, but was it not the case in the past games? Supports were quite important for combat! They always were for people who sought to do playthroughs in specific ways.

I admit a greater emphasis has been put on support on this game. Complaining about it is your right, but saying it downright kills the strategy aspect without even having played the game? Common man...

As for skills, well, dont tell me triggers didnt influence the game or didnt feel satisfying in PoR or RD...

I said the console's main gimmick isn't something I want to tempt fate with. As a result, I will likely never play 13. I'll grant you Lunatic will require strategy, but that isn't what I'm talking about; I mean that there's too much in the way of gimmicky skills and optimisation and that sort of thing, and that just isn't why you pick up a game like FE; where the entire pull is that it's very streamlined.

Creating strong teams in the previous games was a matter of 'get together a bunch of strong lads, and a couple healers. Pick your favourites'. I'm concerned strong teams in this one involves 'everyone is a sorceror from levels eight through fifteen, then reclass five times until you unlock every skill.'

I'd appreciate if you didn't lie about what I did and did not say. I said I was concerned the strategy element was outweighed by the numerical element. I never claimed full knowledge, nor did I ever claim strategy was thrown out the window entirely.

Skills are a relatively small influence in FE4/5/9/10. In 13, it seems to me a rather large part involves juggling them.

[Strunk]

I said the console's main gimmick isn't something I want to tempt fate with. As a result, I will likely never play 13. I'll grant you Lunatic will require strategy, but that isn't what I'm talking about; I mean that there's too much in the way of gimmicky skills and optimisation and that sort of thing, and that just isn't why you pick up a game like FE; where the entire pull is that it's very streamlined.

Creating strong teams in the previous games was a matter of 'get together a bunch of strong lads, and a couple healers. Pick your favourites'. I'm concerned strong teams in this one involves 'everyone is a sorceror from levels eight through fifteen, then reclass five times until you unlock every skill.'

I'd appreciate if you didn't lie about what I did and did not say. I said I was concerned the strategy element was outweighed by the numerical element. I never claimed full knowledge, nor did I ever claim strategy was thrown out the window entirely.

Skills are a relatively small influence in FE4/5/9/10. In 13, it seems to me a rather large part involves juggling them.

The skills in Awakening actually aren't really important. Some people place exceptionally high importance on them, but even then, they're mostly talking about post-game content. During the course of the main game, you really aren't going to be reclassing enough to get even half of the skills on any given character, and if you do choose to grind that much, there's pretty much nothing that's going to challenge you regardless.

During the actual game, you'll be lucky to get a character to more than three classes, counting promoted classes, meaning you'll get six skills, you can equip five of them at a time, and you'll easily know which of them you don't care for. It takes about a minute of your time, at the very most, and then you can move on.

Even with all of the skills in the game, if you don't plan ahead, if you don't actually manage items and weapons, and if you don't use the features to their fullest, you will probably die, just like in every Fire Emblem game. To reiterate, skills are not the end-all means to doing anything in Awakening.

[IkeandMia]

So with all the well developed and non-sexualized females this game has, because Nowi doesn't have enough clofhes on suddenly the game gets single handed credit for making loli "mainstream"? What...?

[General Horace]

I said the console's main gimmick isn't something I want to tempt fate with. As a result, I will likely never play 13. I'll grant you Lunatic will require strategy, but that isn't what I'm talking about; I mean that there's too much in the way of gimmicky skills and optimisation and that sort of thing, and that just isn't why you pick up a game like FE; where the entire pull is that it's very streamlined.

Creating strong teams in the previous games was a matter of 'get together a bunch of strong lads, and a couple healers. Pick your favourites'. I'm concerned strong teams in this one involves 'everyone is a sorceror from levels eight through fifteen, then reclass five times until you unlock every skill.'

I'd appreciate if you didn't lie about what I did and did not say. I said I was concerned the strategy element was outweighed by the numerical element. I never claimed full knowledge, nor did I ever claim strategy was thrown out the window entirely.

Skills are a relatively small influence in FE4/5/9/10. In 13, it seems to me a rather large part involves juggling them.

Honestly I had the same mindset as you before playing the game, and while the pair up mechanic is pretty huge, skills aren't as influential as I thought they'd be. You definately don't need dark magic or sorcerors to make a strong team either.

[Gone2Ground]

We all know that FE is much more than a god.

...

It is a pantheon of GREAT OLD ONES. Worship it lest Anna screws your RNGs.

ai ai Anna ftaghan

[BlueLeafeon]

It's still disheartening for me to see that my former favorite series turned into such an otaku mud-pool.

If this is what it takes to be popular in the world these days, then I'm seriously disappointed.

Welcome to 2013, where women have to be overly sexualized in some way or another just for appeal.

I'm not fond of all the skimpy female outfits either. In fact I actually detest them. Olivia, Nowi and Panne need to put real clothes on. Say'ri needs pants if she's going to be backflipping around on the battlefield. Cherche's outfit makes absolutely no sense at all. But you know what? The rest of the game makes me willing to overlook these things. Afterall, it's not like I have to actually use these women in battle--I can choose not to. Nintendo has tried really hard to get the series more attention and I respect that. Granted, I hope they choose a more modest cast next time around, but it's not like Fire Emblem has avoided scanty women altogether for its lifetime. :/

[Gone2Ground]

Welcome to 2013, where women have to be overly sexualized in some way or another just for appeal.

I'm not fond of all the skimpy female outfits either. In fact I actually detest them. Olivia, Nowi and Panne need to put real clothes on. Say'ri needs pants if she's going to be backflipping around on the battlefield. Cherche's outfit makes absolutely no sense at all. But you know what? The rest of the game makes me willing to overlook these things. Afterall, it's not like I have to actually use these women in battle--I can choose not to. Nintendo has tried really hard to get the series more attention and I respect that. Granted, I hope they choose a more modest cast next time around, but it's not like Fire Emblem has avoided scanty women altogether for its lifetime. :/

In Panne's defense, I'd imagine you'd not want clothes getting in the way when you turn into a giant friggin rabbit, and Dancers in general wear very little clothing IRL in a similar time period (Although Olivia takes it a bit too far, I'll admit)

[Twiilere]

Ick. While the scantily clad anime ladies aren't really my cup of tea, it doesn't bother me much. I'm a little disappointed that some of the other map types didn't make it in. The defend the throne fog of war and for so many chapters type maps really wreck my junk and I absolutely love them. I also thought that stealth map in FE9 was brilliant.

[BlueLeafeon]

In Panne's defense, I'd imagine you'd not want clothes getting in the way when you turn into a giant friggin rabbit, and Dancers in general wear very little clothing IRL in a similar time period (Although Olivia takes it a bit too far, I'll admit)

I've thought about that for both Nowi and Panne actually. Though clothes have never stopped the dragonkin before.

. I also thought that stealth map in FE9 was brilliant.

I have never been able to clear that map without being noticed. <<; Seems to happen no matter what I do.

[Raijinken]

Honestly, I kinda wish they hadn't marketed the heck out of this so the'd have had fewer supply issues...

Still waiting on that shipment confirmation for my bundle...

[Jyosua]

It it's particularly painful to me that Fire Emblem avoided this for two decades just to suddenly be worse about it then the whole competition.

The whole competition? Man, Fire Emblem can't compete with Compile Heart games. Go play Agarest War 2 and then tell that to me.

[Lord Raven]

I said the console's main gimmick isn't something I want to tempt fate with. As a result, I will likely never play 13. I'll grant you Lunatic will require strategy, but that isn't what I'm talking about; I mean that there's too much in the way of gimmicky skills and optimisation and that sort of thing, and that just isn't why you pick up a game like FE; where the entire pull is that it's very streamlined.

Creating strong teams in the previous games was a matter of 'get together a bunch of strong lads, and a couple healers. Pick your favourites'. I'm concerned strong teams in this one involves 'everyone is a sorceror from levels eight through fifteen, then reclass five times until you unlock every skill.'

I'd appreciate if you didn't lie about what I did and did not say. I said I was concerned the strategy element was outweighed by the numerical element. I never claimed full knowledge, nor did I ever claim strategy was thrown out the window entirely.

Skills are a relatively small influence in FE4/5/9/10. In 13, it seems to me a rather large part involves juggling them.

I wouldn't say something as heavy as this about a game you've never played. Creating strong teams is the same as previous games, you only grind for skills when you're grinding in general. In the absence of DLC and spotpass grinding is a pain in the ass outside of easy mode for so many different reasons, too. Skills are a factor but for the most part, you aren't going to be getting more than 6-7 skills per character (if that) before you finish the game.