Shining Force 2 Mafia: Game Over

[MancerNecro]

I'm not relying on roles to scum hunt. I think that if a person has really claimed fully without lying about anything or trying to hide anything, they wouldn't be afraid to whip out their role PM to back their claims. The few players who are overly sensitive and hesitant towards showing their role PMs would really reveal that they really are hiding something from town because of guilty consciences.

[Paulina]

Due to the fact that a reaction test is pointless when your target won't even post and that the amount of people using the guilty as an excuse to not read other players it's probably worth noting that I'm not actually a Jack of All Trades and haven't even targeted Lucina.

I thought Prims' initial claim and his subsequent posts sounded 100% legit.

Ladies and gentlemen. With the Grammys approaching, I would now like to accept my Greatest Hits: Best Derp of 2013 Award.

In all seriousness, I'm *really* glad I reread the thread now. ^^" It's taken several hours to catch up and consolidate all of my thoughts concisely. I've made several reads that I'd like to put on the record; most of them are scumreads, but there's a few townies too. I'm sorry in advance for how long this post is -- I didn't mean to wall you guys. I hope the influx of pages won't be quite as crazy after D1.

Like I said, I have several scumreads (about seven), so I'm going to label them by name. If you made my scumlist, please respond and give some reasoning/clarification behind the content I questioned.

Eclipse: This was probably my biggest surprise, as I haven't seen anyone put her name out there beside BBM. As I was rereading the thread tonight, I have found almost all of Eclipse's content really, really suspect. Please pull up her ISO. To combat any vagueness (and to make it easier for her to reply), I'm going to break down this read post by post.

Her initial post that concerned me was her vote on Levity. You can find it here. All of her given reasoning amounted to "I don't like how she reacted to the vanillizer." I'm not sure if this was meant as an RVS vote, but she sounded sincere. This threw me off, since Levity has been one of my most consistent townreads (more on that later). Due to her lack of elaboration, it felt opportunistic, like she was trying to cast doubt on a random townie.

When BBM raised doubts about the vote on Levity, this was her response. She didn't answer his question regarding Lev, and simply stated that she "didn't give a shit" about the potential vanillizer. Her only rationale was "I don't think it's as important." (She also expressed chagrin at BBM misrepping her. This part was confusing, as I'm not sure what IIRC means. Think it's "in IRC.") She went on to suggest that BBM's questioning of her was vote-worthy, which is ridiculous. Questions need to be raised by everyone for the town to get anywhere. Eclipse, I would appreciate some clarification here. This felt so anti-town to me.

This next post is the one that bothered me the most. For some reason the link was being temperamental; it's here, at the bottom of the page. Eclipse completely pulled an OMGUS by voting BBM. Please read that, and what BBM had said earlier. That's an OMGUS, right? And again, she refused to elaborate on any of his questions, at all. Her biggest attempt at clarification was, again, "I don't think it's as important," which she cut from the above post and bolded. It was so pointedly uncooperative. She then nearly threatened him ("You're coming on way too strong -- back off"), which felt overtly aggressive and personally offended me. Last was the OMGUS vote. Eclipse, please explain your rationale here, especially in regards to this vote. I would really like to know your train of thought behind BBM's questions and why he was scummy to you.

Again, here, she completely skirted BBM's questioning. "I don't think Marth's important because I don't think he's important." She was completely unwilling to engage with him.

Last but not least, this made me scratch my head. I'm including it at the end, because it isn't enough to cast a vote, but it made me ???.

TLDR: In general, Eclipse has been curt and uncooperative. She hasn't been willing to elaborate on almost any of her stances/opinions, beyond "I feel this way – if you don't, tough." I was kind of surprised by this, because she's been very sweet in my other interactions with her (she's always welcoming newbies on the Introduction board, which she doesn't have to do). I'm not sure if this unhelpful, obstinate attitude is typical of her play style, but it resonated with me as profoundly anti-town. I'm not ready to put a vote out just yet. As a new player, I'm not very confident, and I'd like to hear what everyone has to say regarding this read first. It doesn't seem like she's raised anyone else's eyebrows, which is perplexing.

I'm going to spoiler the rest, since my read on Eclipse was pretty drawn-out. I don't like stupid-long posts, so I'm feeling a little hypocritical.

Proto: In general, I've felt your content has been vague, and almost entirely comprised of role/flavorspec. Here and here are good examples, but there's been a few. They were *so* speculative for awhile, with no scumreads or direct questioning. Your last post was a little better (you posted some reads), but they were still vague/phoned-in to me. I also agree with the point Prims raised here. You were noticeably defensive, and that weirded me out.

Snike: You've engaged in a bunch of rolespec. I can find specific posts, but I was a little tired by the time I got here (I don't always write content in order). Taking a look over your ISO, I can't find any hardline questions or scumreads; just a lot of gibberish about a discrepancy in timestamps. Please, hunt more.

Rocker: Everyone's said pretty much everything there is to be said here. My thoughts were the same as something SB said earlier, spoilered here:

My primary scumread right here is Rocker. His content is pretty thin on the ground at the moment (yes I'm a hypocrite, deal with it) and with it consisting of posts like this:

"oh no we lost a cop

no why you vote me

lets continue to do nothing"

And then he posts a "oh I just missed a ton of shit" post and leaves unannounced, as soon as Bizz asked for his reads.

BBM: I'm not sure why you're being wagonned right now, but you skeezed me out when you brought up cultspec in this post. You later denied this was legitimate spec, but at the time you treated it as a genuine point of concern ("You might have been culted for all we know.") I believe Elie has confirmed that there is no cult in the game. I talked with him about this informally before N0 began, so I'm not sure if it's on the books or not. Either way, it felt like you were trying to use a scare tactic, and I didn't like that.

That being said, beside this particular post, I'm not sure why BBM is so unpopular right now. It seems like a lot of people consider him thoroughly scummy. Can someone give me a refresher? Sorry if something obvious slipped through my reread.

Mancer: I didn't like it when you were asking people to post counterclaims to Lucina. Lucina's role is completely provable – we'll see soon enough if someone was vigged. One thing that's really bothered me through the thread has been everyone's eagerness to post their role PMs, so it set off a red light when you solicited people to keep doing it.

Helios: Dude, you have been sounding sooo apathetic. It reminds me of your play in Void. You were trying to lay low and keep the suspicion off of you, and we all know how that turned out (well...with a win, but you were scum ). Please get in here, ask more questions, make more reads.

Rein: Please, post. (If he doesn't, sub him out.)

I realize those are a lot of scumreads. ^^" I'm sure some of them are wrong, but hopefully, I touched on something that piqued another person's scumdar. I don't usually like walls, but I had a long night of reading, so I wanted to put everything out there. I prefer to be more conversational, so this will hopefully be my last wall. I think the lightning-fast page count will die down in a bit (I think people are pretty excited for D1).

My biggest townreads have been Manix, Levity, and Prims. I've felt Manix has been clear with his reasoning and willing to contribute throughout the thread. Levity has had similar clarity, and was consistently willing to work through her logic. Neither of them seemed uptight or resistant to questioning. Prims has been one of the most active scumhunters in-thread so far. His fakeclaim made me "???" at first, but after seeing everyone's reactions, I guess it's par for the course around here. I realize these are a little vague, but I'm pretty tired. I can try to find specific examples of pro-town behavior if anyone wants more clarification on these reads.

Sigh. Alright, I'm going to bed. Hopefully there's not another ten pages of thread when I wake up. ._. Before I bid you adieu, I'd like to say one more thing.

Stop posting your role PMs.

Stop posting your role PMs.

Stop posting your role PMs.

[Bluedoom]

Paulina why aren't you voting eclipse, who's apparently your strongest scumread?

[Paulina]

Paulina why aren't you voting eclipse, who's apparently your strongest scumread?

As I mentioned Marth, I'm a little confused why she hasn't been reading scummy to other players. I'd like a little feedback on my read first. If no one else has much to say about Eclipse and I don't like her answers, I'll put a vote down on her.

[BBM]

If I'm hiding something from my role PM, it's because there's no reason to out it at the moment. You say that me hiding a part of my role PM makes me scum, and then you say you're NOT asking for claims from people who haven't claimed fully? If I did in fact post a part of my role PM that I might be hiding, that would be me claiming something I haven't claimed yet, which you've said you don't want people to do. You're contradicting yourself heavily here. And how am I generally being unhelpful? Say what you want about my play, but I've contributed a lot more than most of the players.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Mancer

Whatever he says, he's rolefishing a lot, and he hasn't done anything of note other than asking people for role PMs and then picking at those. Sounds like pseudo-contribution to me. His initial vote against me was because I votehopped, even though I'd votehopped less than other people, and then he called me out for trying to prove my Announcer role, which makes no sense at all. His reads against Xinny and Manix are weak, and just rehashing what others have said anyways. He also asked a Vig to CC in open even though he's played enough games at this point to know that Vigs shouldn't do that. I still find Eclipse scummy but this is ridiculous.

Paulina, vote for whom you want. You can unvote later if you don't want to vote her after seeing her response.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Fuck this game.

Rereading day 1 is pain in the ass

Scum reads on eclipse and BBM based on fishy convos.

NekoRexNekow/e your reasons for wanting a lynch on me are awful

[Shinori]

Last night was a pain in the ass and I ended up not sleeping at all. Skimming over the thread I think my vote can be placed here:

##Unvote:

##Vote: Mancer

I am really hating how Mancer keeps bugging people to post their role pms. It seems scummy like all hell to me. His cases don't seem all that strong either. It seems like he's grasping for reasons to vote players. They seem forced.

#Fos: Eclipse

More in detail about all this stuff when I wake up this evening and post a content post. However eclipse seems really off to me and unmemorable.

Speaking of Eclipse; Paulina made that big post stating lots of suspicions against eclipse yet didn't vote her. Why? Do you feel that your vote is better placed on someone else Paulina?

[Helios]

Ahhhh I'm having trouble focusing right now due to lightheadedness. It's been going on since yesterday (part of the reason why I didn't post much, other reasons are typing a speech up and fe13) and if it continues on for a couple more days I might have to sub out.

##Unvote (scorri)

##Vote SB

Wasting a vote on an inactive is pretty pointless now. I'm not liking SB for his reaction to Prims's fake cop report (kinda what Manix said). His hesitancy to vote originally looked like a little panic, and afterwards when he did jump (and didn't really reason his sudden change in opinion) it looked really opportunistic.

I don't like Proto's flavorspec/rolespec when there were other things to talk about. He says he likes to work with solid evidence, yet most of his posts/theories were regards to flimsy things like that. Looks like pseudocontribution to make it seems like he's active when in reality he doesn't have much to say. Give some better reads man.

Xinn's looking a little scummy right now as well. A lot of wishy-washiness in his posts, I made a note about his earlier posts before, and I don't like how he went about the Lucina vote as well (the whole "yeah I thought she was town I just voted her cuz Prims" thing).

I don't like Eclipse's overall attitude either. I know she's doing things her way, but could you explain your thought process a little better for the rest of us to follow? How are you going to convince people to see what you're seeing if you don't help them out a little? I'm not a fan of her interactions with Bizz earlier either. Her contribution otherwise is okay though, so the scumread isn't very strong here.

On a side note wrt to people not liking my apathetic tone: Sorry I forgot mafia is srs bsns I'll speak more professionally and eloquently from now on and cut the chuckles.

That's all the time I have right now and I'll try to go more in depth later and be more of a presence.

[Percivalé]

Hi I just woke up and I need to read the last few pages I missed but first I have a term paper that I have to finish by evening so please bear with me

[scorri]

Hi guys, massive dump of thoughts since I was gone all yesterday building a booth and then having girl time/drinking wine with people. So! Thoughts!

BBM: I see what you did there with your announcement.

Ok, moving on to serious thoughts

Sho loses his role, odd, but I believe that he did, no reason to mention it otherwise, too much attention drawn by it otherwise.

Snike's response was reasonable and well thought out, getting information to the town is important.

BBM's reactions strike me as odd for some reason, but I'm not sure why. Going to try and ISO him later to get a solid read on him.

Rocker comes in, posts spam, disappears without reasoning

Helios drops a vote on me for "active lurking" when I'd mentioned I wouldn't be around, and then proceeds to comment on Sho stuff, but not actually give any reads. Hypocritical much? That's the definition of active lurking. Giving a post that seems like you're contributing without actually saying anything useful.

He then posts twice more and the only read he gives is a town read on Marth bases soley on meta. Yeeeeah...

Shinori outing numbers, good job Shinori. Like I said before, getting info to the town is important

Prims claims having a cop shot, calls Lucina scum, people jump on that, has a point about SB's reaction being odd

I really like eclipse's reaction to Prims calling Lucina scum. Acknowledged, but continued to scum hunt in other ways.

Proto appears, does some role spec about a PGO that steals roles instead or something? I dunno about that role spec, but I actually agree that there's no reason for him to not out his target. I'm curious more because I want to know Sho's reasoning for targeting that person than anything.

Lucina claims, sure, fine, whatever.

Blaaaaaaaah, so many pages.

Mancer collecting claims and asking for role pms seems odd. My first thought is he's the role deleter/thief/whatever looking for confirmation of roles to steal, but that's pure role spec so...

Current scum reads:

Helios for calling me out for active lurking and then proceeding to do what he accused me of besides, i wasn't active lurking, i was just plain lurking

SB for his reaction to Prims claim of a guilty

##Vote:Helios

[charlie_]

jesus so many claims

lol my hesitance at first was due to just rereading fayz where prims did the exact same thing along with the fuck up with the fake I wasn't sure whether or not to believe it at first.

Back to this I guess.

##Unvote

##Vote: BBM

note this post is literally 5 hours old and I'm going to go reread for stuff.

[Percivalé]

I feel like this BBM lynch is going to be a mislynch

[Snike]

I feel like this BBM lynch is going to be a mislynch

I don't but I think Mancer's a better call

still compiling a catch-up/point form thoughts post

[Snike]

C:\Users\Snike> java AbnormalSnikePost

Already lost a post, and am not going to bother to retype it all out sooo relatively point-form time. And I skipped ahead in NNR's section, but it's basically all in chronological order.

-Sho please contribute something other than roleclaiming and telling us that Prims is scum. Prims is not on the block today, and we all know he's town miller strongman janitor vigilante. So any other observations would be immensely helpful.

-NNR I'd like to know how my role conflicts with claimed roles/I conflict with claimed roles. That second post confused me because of that, but I'll try to keep the rolespec down.

-GG BBM for either ignoring or choosing not to respond to this post, and instead launching a case on eclipse. The writing feels overblown, especially the post 4/5 section where you say that eclipse dismissed everything you said with "It's not as important. Would still lynch.

-I am not sure how BBM VS Eclipse took precedence over glorious wars such as Prims VS Sho, but uh this first Paulina post strikes me as newbtown because she doesn't seem to recognize that there does need to be competing wagons in a healthy D1, not to mention the fact that she doesn't appear to have seen a Prims fakeclaim before.

-eclipse stop reading my nonpresent mind

-The SK angle could be possible but I'm going to avoid it out of fear of furious cat kings. The BBM case makes sense, but I feel like you omitted the part where BBM overreacted to 2 people who were suspicious of him. It shows an extraordinary sense of self-preservation for a claimed announcer.

-I think Helios/scorri scumbuddies/ opposite alignment is a bit hasty to theorize right now given that helios has 3 D1 posts to scorri's 1 (0 content B|). Helios does warrant another look, given that post #299, while making a point about scorri not saying anything in her inactivity post, also took a passive-aggressive shot at Xinnidy which I just realized after rereading. He needs to talk moar in general, though. Both of them do. The rest of the post is alright Bizz, but I feel like you omitted BBM from the analysis aside from the vote on eclipse part.

-BBM Misreading prims' post and eclipse's post ftl. Not to mention your second case you didn't even acknowledge you left that train of thought.

-I don't see how my miller claim and sho's loss of his AC are related, Marth. I also feel like you're latching on to Prims's argument a bit, but this is better than ED1. Just don't be me.

-I feel like Xinnidy's post was padded up with meta about Void, which was an OC mafia. I don't think OC applies to NOC as much given that NOC allows for more thought into posts in general. I dunno the post could be interpreted as newbtown, but it strikes me as filler.

-IT BEGINS (Enter Mancer, carrying a list) I'll address the claiming part at the end. But in general this is silly bc of massclaim on d1.

-Do not want. Reading Sho as null/neutral just because he has a role PM. How about just prodding him to be productive? While I agree with BBM being scum, I really can't see that particular case. The announcement was slightly annoying, because it held a HG reference, but in no way is that scum trying hard to appear town. Then there's the asking vig to cc part which is at the very least incredibly foolish, and, well this post is just bad.

-I can't really take much issue with BBM's 1:19 post other than to reiterate that he left the argument and cut it out with the cult nonsense, but ok. Your later post bugs me mainly because of me using meta (which I'm disregarding), but the vig thing wasn't brought up in the original post so I guess that was a reread remark?

-Mancer stahp it. The scum have probably been given safeclaims and besides, mods are humans. They can and will make typos. I would say more but Manix more or less nailed my issues on the head.

-Mancer pointing that error out was a nice catch because it means that BBM Might've edited the flavor, but I don't put too much stock into his role. BBM getting touchy over that was an interesting reaction though, so thanks for pointing that out anyways.

-Xinnidy's post reads like a trainwreck. I can't really say much else about it.

-Marth shit posting B| I am going to pull a Bizzu and suggest you cite your sources wrt that.

-BBM is going on about how Marth is rolespeccing while dropping the c-word much too often. Stop that.

-Eclipse is in prime form today, I disagreed with the vote at this point in time, but then...

-mancer (scumteam accusation of eclipse & BBM)

mancer what are you doing(ignoring the possibility of host errors)

mancer no (forcing out full claims on suspicion of a secondary role and not because the role is gone)

mancer stahp(rolespec + scumteamspec + ignoring own attempts to proc a vig cc)

Yeah this was overall trash.

-I am OK with a Rocker lynch should it materialize, though BBM or Mancer are better options IMO.

-BBM Right cross to mancer. This is a solid post, though anything is solid compared to previous Mancer content.

-NNR sucker punch to Mancer. I'd like to see a vote soon, but nice content so far.

(disclaimer: bear with the liberal use of question marks)

-So wait, BBM is scum because he omitted part of his role pm? Like Manix and Prims (who may well have faked that whole role pm)? And he's unhelpful like Sho and Rocker? Look, he's scummy because of the over-the-top overreactions and misrepresentation of my words and those of Eclipse, but what you're claiming, while denying the fact that you're trying to force out his role (which is role fishing in this circumstance) is rubbish.

-Paulina post 2: I'm just going to point out two things that bugged me.

1)It appears you completely ignored my case on marth, as well as my argument with BBM. Don't do that, then turn around and tell me I haven't been scumhunting. I am aware a good bulk of my posts have been role spec but seriously, this feels like a misrepresentation. On another note, I don't do the question thingy unless it's absolutely necessary IMO. Just a personal preference for pressing people over asking a copious amount of questions.

2)Don't list a person who hasn't even posted d1 and who was prodded as a scumread. That sort of suggests that inactivity implies being scum, and that's not true in most cases, so it's a bad habit to get into.

-BBM changes votes with some of the aforementioned reasoning, but focusing on Mancer's pseudo-contributions. I feel like his argument would be stronger if he emphasized the rolefishing moar, but I suppose we all can't be Delinquent Snike.

-Sho, dear, cite these convos. TY for beginning to contribute, but cite these convos.

-Shinori's Mancer reasoning is a bit shaky, so I'd like him to elaborate a bit more once he wakes up.

-I don't see the case on SB to be as strong as it is on people like BBM or Mancer or Rocker, so this vote by Helios strikes me as a bit lazy. His tone is better though, so there's that.

-Scorri voting Helios might be distancing but I get it's more of she didn't read helios's more recent post/ she hasn't read the thread thoroughly enough, so null on that theory. Overall slightly scum-sided because fucking SB response multiple people seem to be latching on to.

-SB Y U POST A VOTE CHANGE BEFORE READING THAT'S NOT HOW ONE PLAYS MAFIA. Yeah that post makes me angry because it's lazy, and it makes me feel like I definitely spend too much time on my posts.

I'm not inclined to post my role PM at this point in time, as I fail to see the use of doing so and I may or may not have an ability. Instead, I am going to

##Unvote

##Vote:Mancer

because he tried to ask for a vig cc and he tried to force people to out their full role PMs/ vote BBM because he may or may not be hiding an extra ability. Sure, public knowledge is nice at times, but we really don't need to share with the mafia who has which power role.

In conclusion, Prims is a prophet.

C:\Users\Snike>

[Percivalé]

I tend to not really pay mind to people that I think are getting a little too much attention/will be mislynches, wrt BBM and Marth, although Marth hasn't really been doing a lot recently to redeem himself so I dunno. His last post I remember reading didn't strike me as ~scum~ but it could have used more actual analysis

[Snike]

jegus christ that post was long.

Again, I don't see BBM as a mislynch because of the argument yesterday and how he basically blew up when I stated I had mixed feelings about him. I'm aware I might be suffering from a case of tunnel vision, so I'm backing off and going towards the person who I think is more obviously scum, but I still stand by my statement that he was misrepresenting my reads in that dispute.

As for marth I am still not impressed by his contributions as I mention in-post, but I feel like Mancer is the better lynch at this point in time.

[Prims]

holy shit walls

Paulina and NNR why aren't you voting. Like BBM said you can just move your vote later if you change your mind.

[BBM]

Snike: holy flipping Bear Knight. Anyways, yeah, I forgot to respond to that post. There's really nothing to say to your defence there because it'd become a "Yes you did" argument against your "No I didn't" defence. And I didn't make up the point on the stop, I just didn't say it clearly the first time because to me, the reason scum are waffly and sit on the fence in arguments is so that they can engineer mislynches and then back off later. So I didn't see the reason to mention the latter because I thought it was a direct consequence of the former.

Anyways, I admit that I've over-reacted a bit in certain places, but I felt frustrated at people either misunderstanding or misrepresenting me, and then accusing me of doing the same to them, and then later I was grouchy from studying for so long.

[Snike]

Snike: holy flipping Bear Knight. Anyways, yeah, I forgot to respond to that post. There's really nothing to say to your defence there because it'd become a "Yes you did" argument against your "No I didn't" defence. And I didn't make up the point on the stop, I just didn't say it clearly the first time because to me, the reason scum are waffly and sit on the fence in arguments is so that they can engineer mislynches and then back off later. So I didn't see the reason to mention the latter because I thought it was a direct consequence of the former.

Anyways, I admit that I've over-reacted a bit in certain places, but I felt frustrated at people either misunderstanding or misrepresenting me, and then accusing me of doing the same to them, and then later I was grouchy from studying for so long.

Gotcha. I think I did a similar thing wrt the sho scandal for the conclusion part. I guess the issue here is you didn't acknowledge the post which irritated me. To reiterate, though, I still think you're suspicious, but I think Mancer sort of outclassed you in the scumratings.

Side note: BK was me after a shitty backstory event. I hope that one was better-written/more coherent/less emotional than BK walls.

[Prims]

I feel like this BBM lynch is going to be a mislynch

Why?

On the other hand, you eclipse, seem to be hiding something and are echoing BBM a lot. Would it be possible of both of you were scum buddies and you are now trying to help him out through his tight spot?

##Unvote

##Vote: MancerNecro

How much of the thread would you have had to not read to even say that? Also lol baseless jab at somebody just because they attacked you. Scum reaction imo.

I know people are complaining about eclipse a lot but seriously either she completely changed up her scum mindset between games or she's obvious town. Not bending to the town's whims is more pro-town than scummy in these circumstances; it's basically the opposite of appeasement. Plus the N0 softclaim.

@Bluedoom: Your recent posts seem kinda shallow, like you have a lot of comments and questions but not many clear opinions. pls elaborate

@Helios: Why did you ignore BBM and Mancer when they're currently the main focuses of the day?

@scorri: ??? What's with the reportery stuff? I'm pretty sure you're not like, Obviam or anything so it's weird coming from you. I get the impression haven't fully read yet, c/d?

[Prims]

Also, "getting too much attention" is a null tell when BBM was only receiving ~4 votes and there are 15 town in the game as confirmed by Shinori. And a lot of current posters are pretty obvious town.

[Percivalé]

I said some things today that I plan on elaborating on after my final is finished

[Percivalé]

@Prims I meant that bbm fell into the 'probable mislynch' category, not the 'getting too much attention' category

[scorri]

Snike: Yeah, I missed about a page with my post, so I didn't see Helios's response.

Prims: That was a massive dump of my thoughts on everything from start of the day because I was trying to play catch up due to being not around at all yesterday. It's kinda disjointed, but it's what I had. I'm planning on doing ISO's later today (read: after I get some homework done) so that I can get some more solid reads.

[Prims]

why are people comparing snike's post to bear_knight for meta when bear_knight was manix......