Shinori Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 GG I guess. Unannounced Alternating team kills was apparently too much for people to grasp Shinori. I actually stated this somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percivalé Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 BUT ANYWAY thanks for the game elie and wow, snike was the one mafia I didn't expect honestly. Although he did do that one thing that strikes me as scum but I'll probably just talk to him about that in private. I need to actually take things in perspective more and be more assertive and pay more attention etc., but man I didn't realize how HARD it would be to play a large game again. Since finals week was happening for me, it was hard to catch up with the game and I got all useless and I'll admit I didn't read some of the larger posts all the way because it was hard to concentrate. I'm so sorry for my play this game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snike Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 BUT ANYWAY thanks for the game elie and wow, snike was the one mafia I didn't expect honestly. Although he did do that one thing that strikes me as scum but I'll probably just talk to him about that in private. This is relevant to my interests. I'd like to know what that thing was for future reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grace Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) okay I am home now, jan rant (plus other stuff) in spoiler Notice: If there is a janitor present in a game and their power has been used to hide a flip, here's a protip: Don't speculate over what that person's role could have been in a closed setup. It's just as bad as trying to determine what a living, unclaimed person's role is. Except you literally gain no good reactions/any reactions at all from speccing over a dead person's role. You might be able to pick some vague ideas out using crumbs but do not take them as irrefutable fact. Take this game, where there was speculation presented about the janned role. Some assumptions were about the janned role being a mafia role. Now, let's put it this way; don't dump your initial reads on a player just to spec about what they might possibly have been. If you thought someone was town, then why would your mind change based on... nothing except spec? /rantover And from this I'm kinda tempted to make a closed no reveal setup with no mortician/coroner/whatever you want to call it. Possibly a filler game, coming soon. - And now for a second thing: Lining Up Lynches. Yeah this was present in here. Basically it's a form of using associative reads without flips, which is flawed in the first place due to a lack of concrete information. It looks scummy as hell too because of that. Why it's annoying? Well combine it with the above regarding janned roles, a bit of PoE, and you get one huge headache which cannot be verified until you have the flips from a fair number of people (depending on severity), and clogs up discussion about things that aren't concrete. Seriously just focus on scumhunting over baseless spec, it makes life a lot easier. (Also related: Slippery Slope argument) my ramblings at 11pm at night last night oops Edited February 26, 2013 by Manix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percivalé Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 This is relevant to my interests. I'd like to know what that thing was for future reference. I'll PM you~! Unless you'd rather talk on IRC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snike Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I'll PM you~! Unless you'd rather talk on IRC Doesn't matter to me. Send it whenever you please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinnidy Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 [25/02/2013 11:48:43] Xenah: Even Creed disliked me [25/02/2013 11:48:44] Xenah: :c [25/02/2013 11:49:01] Xenah: I can't do anything guys I was just born OP naturally :'c [25/02/2013 11:49:02] Eli: Well [25/02/2013 11:49:07] Eli: We always pick Karna [25/02/2013 11:49:12] Eli: Obvious jealousy is obvious [25/02/2013 11:49:32] Eli: (Also, good job figuring it out) [25/02/2013 11:49:38] Xenah: xD [25/02/2013 11:50:09] Xenah: thanks [25/02/2013 11:50:46] Eli: I was this close to making their team the Karna rejects [25/02/2013 11:50:48] Eli: Lol [25/02/2013 11:51:11] Eli: But obvious link would be obvious for anyone familiar with flavor [25/02/2013 11:55:33] Xenah: xD true [25/02/2013 11:56:18] Xenah: Also Sarah got teh Vigor ball :c [25/02/2013 11:56:19] Xenah: lol Elieson based a mafia team around (well, against) my char. <3 Which was one of the most amusing points of the game for me I suppose, for giggles. Also @Helios: assuming that some of the messages in Balc's amazing fake qt weren't forged, then don't worry, I don't hold anything against you, though I do fail pretty hard at scumreading so making a point took me so much work and I was getting frustrated. x.x And also @Kay: whenever I called you 'echoing scum' that one time, I didn't mean that as a personal insult but that I suspected you were, well, an echoing scum-sided player. As in, I felt you were just repeating what people had said about me before and that made me think you were scum. I'm forever sorry if you took that as anything else. :< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percivalé Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 OH YEAH by the way the reason I thought Xin was town was because I got hints about what her role was through the OC convo with Proto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I'll apologize if I came across as too aggressive, BUT I will not apologize for what was said. If I think something fails on the basis of reading comprehension, that is exactly what I think of it, no more, no less. It doesn't mean I hate you or that you're a horrible person, it means that the case itself is really that bad. Reading comprehension (and lack thereof) was a recurring theme here, and that's not a good thing. Read, understand, and FFS don't be afraid to admit that your case fell flat on its face! The last item tells me that you saw the mistakes, and will hopefully not repeat them in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriemhild Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 That Taros art... Is it official? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percivalé Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I'll apologize if I came across as too aggressive, BUT I will not apologize for what was said. If I think something fails on the basis of reading comprehension, that is exactly what I think of it, no more, no less. It doesn't mean I hate you or that you're a horrible person, it means that the case itself is really that bad. Reading comprehension (and lack thereof) was a recurring theme here, and that's not a good thing. Read, understand, and FFS don't be afraid to admit that your case fell flat on its face! The last item tells me that you saw the mistakes, and will hopefully not repeat them in the future. Time to give everyone a lesson in how to tell me when I have done something wrong! Please note that I am not mad or trying to be hostile when I say this, I've just been a lot too afraid to tell people this in general. I have really bad self-confidence. I hate myself a lot I am super self-conscious and self-aware and self-deprecating. This isn't just in mafia, but pretty much any circumstance, whether it is a game or not. Therefore, if I have done something wrong or said something that has its weak points, chances are I already know what I have done wrong, and I'm probably scolding myself for it, a lot. I emotionally harm myself on a daily basis over things I have done or said wrong, and I do try to change them for the future, but sometimes I intentionally play badly in mafia games when I'm in a bad place personally. So! What this means is that if there's something that I have done wrong and you wish to tell me what it is, the best thing to do is first to inform me in private. HOWEVER, since this is NOT an option in NOC mafia games (unless it is a personal issue), the best thing to do is to ask me, calmly, to clarify what it is that you don't understand, or at least state in a rational manner that there is something that I have said that is not logical. Since, you know, I'm probably already inwardly destroying myself over saying a dumb thing or something. If I don't realize I have done something wrong, this is also helpful. What happens if you sound aggressive? Well, I end up spending more time trying to defend myself than actually scumhunt, and I start to get afraid. Why don't I just get over this problem? Well, I'm trying! This is why I tend to play a lot better when I'm calmer, and it wasn't the best idea to join a large game over finals week. This was my mistake. However, if it seems that I am in a scatterbrained state, at least try to be reasonable. I'm sure there are other players here who feel the same way! For more information, I wrote a post. I am also aware that oftentimes I can be a hypocrite. I'm trying to work on this, too, but in the meantime this is where I am. I am happy when I am given feedback on my play (thanks, Prims, I will keep those things in mind for the future, though this wasn't really a good game for me haha). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Time to give everyone a lesson in how to tell me when I have done something wrong! Please note that I am not mad or trying to be hostile when I say this, I've just been a lot too afraid to tell people this in general. I have really bad self-confidence. I hate myself a lot I am super self-conscious and self-aware and self-deprecating. This isn't just in mafia, but pretty much any circumstance, whether it is a game or not. Therefore, if I have done something wrong or said something that has its weak points, chances are I already know what I have done wrong, and I'm probably scolding myself for it, a lot. I emotionally harm myself on a daily basis over things I have done or said wrong, and I do try to change them for the future, but sometimes I intentionally play badly in mafia games when I'm in a bad place personally. So! What this means is that if there's something that I have done wrong and you wish to tell me what it is, the best thing to do is first to inform me in private. HOWEVER, since this is NOT an option in NOC mafia games (unless it is a personal issue), the best thing to do is to ask me, calmly, to clarify what it is that you don't understand, or at least state in a rational manner that there is something that I have said that is not logical. Since, you know, I'm probably already inwardly destroying myself over saying a dumb thing or something. If I don't realize I have done something wrong, this is also helpful. What happens if you sound aggressive? Well, I end up spending more time trying to defend myself than actually scumhunt, and I start to get afraid. Why don't I just get over this problem? Well, I'm trying! This is why I tend to play a lot better when I'm calmer, and it wasn't the best idea to join a large game over finals week. This was my mistake. However, if it seems that I am in a scatterbrained state, at least try to be reasonable. I'm sure there are other players here who feel the same way! For more information, I wrote a post. I am also aware that oftentimes I can be a hypocrite. I'm trying to work on this, too, but in the meantime this is where I am. I am happy when I am given feedback on my play (thanks, Prims, I will keep those things in mind for the future, though this wasn't really a good game for me haha). Bizz, you're one of the majority of people I don't have a problem with, unless you're lying scum trying to get me lynched. Keep the following in mind: 1. Are they getting on your case because of you being you, or something you're currently doing? The latter is what I do, and it means exactly that. You don't have to get it perfect the first time 'round, but as long as you're willing to work towards changing for the better, I'll be more than happy to let you do your thing. Now, if someone's doing the former, they will most likely have little to no game-related content to back it up; feel free to call these people out. Personal insults for the sake of insults are grounds for a lynch (as it has no bearing on what's in your role PM)/postgame host yelling. 2. No matter how hard I get on people's cases, it's ONLY for that game. Mafia is simply one aspect of my life, so while I might not agree with every single thing that happens, it absolutely does NOT mean that I hate you as a person over a game. This extends to everyone. 3. When you feel yourself beating yourself up (if it's what I think it is, there should be some warning thoughts/signs), remind yourself that it's a game with bragging rights on the line. In the grand scheme of things, winning/losing mafia games has far less impact on life than, say, failing a final. If you can see what's wrong, then you can direct that energy towards improving yourself. Once you see that improvement, write it down somewhere. People can change for the better! 4. Pointing out contradictions is part of the game, and even if you do get caught in one, you tend to admit your mistakes, which is something I'm cool with. We players can't get it perfect, and even if you're being voted over it, it's not the end of the world. 5. No matter what, don't stop reading at emotion. Look at the content. Many a misunderstanding can be averted by doing that. Hope this helps explain what's going on in my head~! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percivalé Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) It's not that I think people hate me over a game (keep in mind, please, everyone--it's not that I think anyone hates me, I just hate myself), I just don't like being treated like I absolutely don't know what I'm doing when in reality I'm super hyper aware of myself (most of the time), I just have a super hard time getting it out there because I inwardly think I'm not worth the trouble/I'm stupid. See the self-contradiction there? haha WELL I MEAN as in my brain is weird?? and when people try to help me with something that I already know I'm having problems with, my brain interprets that as a threat or something negative and I get all competitive about it and yeah it's stupid. So that's why it's best not to approach something like that aggressively. I HOPE THAT'S A GOOD EXPLANATION for what I do half of the time and why I have such a hard time explaining myself at times Edited February 26, 2013 by Leder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 It's not that I think people hate me over a game (keep in mind, please, everyone--it's not that I think anyone hates me, I just hate myself), I just don't like being treated like I absolutely don't know what I'm doing when in reality I'm super hyper aware of myself (most of the time), I just have a super hard time getting it out there because I inwardly think I'm not worth the trouble/I'm stupid. See the self-contradiction there? haha WELL I MEAN as in my brain is weird?? and when people try to help me with something that I already know I'm having problems with, my brain interprets that as a threat or something negative and I get all competitive about it and yeah it's stupid. So that's why it's best not to approach something like that aggressively. I HOPE THAT'S A GOOD EXPLANATION for what I do half of the time and why I have such a hard time explaining myself at times That. . .uh, that's something you'll have to handle. Not pointing stuff out would be basically playing counter to what I think should be done in a game (poke holes in logic, prod people, etc.). I don't see you acting counter to how you want people to treat you, so I can TRY to keep that in mind, but no guarantees. (every time I make a contradiction, it's the fault of cabbage) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snike Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 (every time I make a contradiction, it's the fault of cabbage) I am not sure whether to be thrilled or disappointed that my position as scapegoat has been usurped by cabbage. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percivalé Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 That. . .uh, that's something you'll have to handle. Not pointing stuff out would be basically playing counter to what I think should be done in a game (poke holes in logic, prod people, etc.). I don't see you acting counter to how you want people to treat you, so I can TRY to keep that in mind, but no guarantees. (every time I make a contradiction, it's the fault of cabbage) what I meant to say is that as long as it's not in an aggressive manner I can usually get over myself and address what I did wrong. I'm not telling you to not point things out, haha. But yeah, thank you for the advice~! If I ever sound passive-aggressive when I'm trying to explain myself it means my brain is doing that thing. I'm trying to not let things get to me personally and I've been a lot better about it lately, but in case I start getting uppity again this is a just-in-case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) Postgame Pregame Part 1: Shining Force 2 Design Concepts. Psych and I originally started this setup after Shining Force mafia exploded. I wanted to try to make a game like it, but one that people would rage a bit less at. The base balance of the old one was pretty good. Doc, Cop, 2-shot Day Vig, Bomb, all standard stuff. Original design called for full on OC, and I had to modify this game a little bit to the NOC demand. Proto's OC networking was originally an OC blocker. There was also one less town and one additional mafia member. I realized closer to checking time that a 11:4:4:1 was a horrible setup in OC because mafia could find eachother and set up a pretty quick game against town, even with the DayVig existing and shooting blindly. Worst case scenario, town is stuck without a brick of hope by D2. So I modified it; 13:4:3:1. The idea of multiple teams came from a few mafias past that I read (Fire Emblem 10 Mafia springs to mind), where the point was to see who could pull what off, and which faction could really handle it. I will admit that Psych's impact on that was pretty heavy (after Hearts Mafia and all), but it was an idea I liked, and wanted to make it work. But first, a few things stuck out from the original game. Some things about the original; I really liked. The Leader role that Shinori not only had in the first one (which made no sense to me as to why he actually became the leader, but whatever), seemed so antitown in the first place, and then he ultimately blew the game by throwing town at eachother under mafia manipulation. I loved it, but hated seeing it misdirected. I wanted to include that role and have it work in the same way The whole Mawlock role I did enjoy (collecting cards of players), but it seemed too cheesy. "Visit 6 different players and you win the game" seemed far too simple. Bizz handled it like a pro back then, and I was left more confused at the point of it. Just some third party to participate in a side mini game? Then it hit me. Let's modify it to actually take the card, or rather, the ability of another player. Thus, the vanillizer was born. It was expected to be powerful, and one I couldn't throw into any old alliance without making things ridiculously overpowered. It had to be on its own. Then a Deathproof modifier (because I'm Elie and host meta shows that I love the role Deathproof 1x), and a goal to steal roles was made into gold and Lemon was born. So I thought anyway. Then, I realized that town was fucked. Or mafia was fucked. Alternating Night kills between two scum teams (ala .hack) would be awful, if Lemon was stealing roles and fucking things over. There was no saying who she would align with. Town and Mafia alike needed a way to deal with her, so methods were provided, but Lemon could still side with anyone. Free to steal anything, I knew that the potential Doc steal or Cop steal would ruin the game. The only doc role gets stolen N0 or N1, and town is left pretty hurt. Mafia's empowerment is stolen early? That'd suck too. So I built the teams in a way that could work with themselves. Each team specialized in something. The 4 man team needed to focus on nightkilling (Hitman and Janitor) with a sub for protection (Roleblocking), and a way of self preservation (Godfather). I added the Leader to make the Godfather in some way, useful. Now, those funny asterisks I announced? They were Day 3 boosts for the Janitor (Cop-blocking their kill target & acquire dual targetting) and Mass Roleblock (1x). The other team specialized in Day handling (Vote Cancellation and Mayor) with OC Blocker (well, Networker) as a means to handle some other forms of communication that may alter a lynch. The OC Networker earned a Mass OC (one time, didn't get used obviously), and the Mayor unlocked the choice of an Auto-Hammer OR a second extra vote. I contemplated the balance of a 4 man team with these roles, but the idea of a 4 man team with 6 votes by Day 3 was obviously too strong, so I made the slightly weaker team possess more day control. Coincidentially, all those guys died within 4 days of the game starting, which was kind of weak, as it was the main method of Mafia and Other Guys being capable opponents to town after a few back and forth lynches. The Un-announced Alternate Nightkilling? Well, I couldn't think of any other way to keep the idea of Multiball in the shadows. Alerting the teams to it would have destroyed the purpose of the team split, so I went about it by simply not mentioning it, and having kills just fail with a pretty inexplicable reason. With the awareness of people dying that the teams didn't target, I expected everyone to figure it out. The teams got decent fakeclaims too. Mafia got 3, including Miller and Bomb, while Other Guys got 4, including Masons and Informed and CPR-Doctor. The point of this was to throw everyone off. Like I said in the rules, this would be a mind fuck. SF in general takes Miller claims far too lightly, and a unique claim here and there with semi-verifiable evidence seemed like something that would punish town and team alike for thinking otherwise. There was a lot of spec about adding conceptual roles into this game like: Role Backfirer (Causes player to target themself with their action/kill) **We ditched this** Day-acting booster (that boosts players for night use) Role Thief (See above) Alignment Cop and Role Cop that share results anonymously Scummy town role (See Bizz's JoAT) And a few classics from the old one: 2 shot Day Vig Leader Cops and Docs (Duh) The inclusion of a base Doctor seemed too weak. Role Thief steals it? Game Over man. So I buffed it. It recieved an Asterisk that allowed him to choose to gain a BPV or to gain 2x targetting (much like the Astral role), to help counteract the likelyhood of dual Jan kills. Still, if eliminated too soon, I felt a needed backup was necessary. Boom, Backup (Frayja role). But then something else. A reviver, but not a typical reviver (because that'd be too mainstream), but more like a delayed doctor. The Reviver was supposed to allow a dead player to come back the day after. The point of this was to one, throw players off, and two, preserve town in the unfortunate situation of a towering Mafia/Other Guys lead. Tree Stump was honestly thrown in for novelty. I figured a player could make use of it by sticking around to help maintain discussion, but of course, the vote would dissappear, making it just a voice. Then the Lynch Gov and JoAT and Booster came into mind. Booster was a recall back to SSBU, where moderately enjoyable boosts here and there were appreciated, and could ultimately boost either side. JoAT was designed to look scummy without being scum (Hence, to throw the RoleCop off), while Lynch Gov could go either way. The JoAT was Silencer, Persuader, Roleblocker btw. And the coup' de grace. The Combo Tracker Watcher. I knew this was too powerful to split two ways. Then I considered one on each side. Also too mainstream. SF has grown too expectant of this. So combine them into one player. That player dying still means the existance of 2 cops and 3 protective roles. So yes, much of this game was designed to mess with your heads. Town having the only form of investigation roles, powerful fakeclaims, and strange and almost experimental roles, was ultimately put together to make the players communicate and think BEYOND the premise of a player being town/scum because of role. Multiball and confusing roles alike, you were all encouraged to think outside the box with your player guessing. Now bear in mind, this is excluding the fact that I hosted this game entirely from my Phone, and made several mistakes that I simply had no idea that I made due to self-inflicted confusion, a stressful IRL situation, and reverting back to single parenthood/ Edited February 26, 2013 by Elieson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share Posted February 26, 2013 Also all links and shit are here below. RolePMs Source Actions Spreadsheet Mafia Quicktopic Other Guys Quicktopic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I am not sure whether to be thrilled or disappointed that my position as scapegoat has been usurped by cabbage. :/ No, you're the default kill target. Now, Snike dearest, since when did I ever nibble on you, hmmmm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snike Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 No, you're the default kill target. Now, Snike dearest, since when did I ever nibble on you, hmmmm? I dunno I'm chew toy, aren't I? @PG: I feel like one of the major issues with the game was that the anti-town factions weren't given any inspection aside from the other guys' jans. Without the ability to check roles or alliances we were more or less shooting in the dark like any other town member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share Posted February 26, 2013 That Taros art... Is it official? Duh. I only used Official art (well, the Kraken flip I shooped the sign but the base was OA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grace Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) Can I also note that the cops (which I have dubbed tandem cops because why not) once they figured out what was happening were ridiculously strong. Effectively if combined you got a doublefullcop each night (not even considering the role booster) which creates too many clears too quickly. Edited February 26, 2013 by Manix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 oh this ended. No need to play catch up then wheeee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MancerNecro Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I have to say, reading this and staying up to date with this is a pain given the rate at which the game progressed at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedoom Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 YES I FINALLY WON AND SURVIVED TILL THE END AS TOWN. Hasn't happened since SFMM2. And as a rolecop too. :3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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