The Lunatic Club

[Legault!]

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Then that's the player's fault, not the game.

I don't know what this means. Player's fault for what?

[Redwall]

Lategame maps (and even certain midgame maps: Ch.12, 16, 19, 20) are ferociously difficult. I can't see them being beatable without some type of exploit (Veteran!MU, Sorcerer, maybe a high-leveled Aether!Chrom).

I'm trying a run in which Veteran, Sol, -buyable- Nosferatu, Rally Spectrum, and other comparably OP things are banned. I'm on Ch 17 right now; I feel as long as you're giving EXP in the earlygame to anyone not named Frederick, the game can be very doable. I didn't find 12 or 16 very difficult on this challenge run, probably because I didn't ban Panne (oops). Although even if I did ban Panne, it seems from Interceptor's post earlier in the thread that the game can still be broken using Nowi.

[Mondoflow]

I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is that separates this game from...say...Blazing Sword, in terms of team composition. What features would you guys say causes Awakening to lean more towards an invincible single unit rather than the balanced teams of old?

My personal guess is just map design. I noticed it back when Path of Radiance first came out. It just became too difficult to keep your units safe at any point. In that game I thought it was a mobility problem, since everyone had one more movement than usual, but the movement in this game has been scaled down. I'd say the ambush spawns were the problem, but they had that in Sword of Seals, too. (All you had to do was lose the first time you ran into an ambush spawn and then restart to plan for it next time.) Instead, I think it's a vast array of flying units as well as some very open maps that don't actually allow for a lot of strategies whereby you can protect a single unit. I'm playing around with Blazing Sword again a bit to see how it does thing, and even the outside maps are usually filled with bridges and mountain passes that serve as choke points. There are maybe a couple maps I remember as being more open, but not the majority, and I'm on chapter 15 now and haven't seen an enemy flying unit yet, whereas they show up in 5 at the latest in Awakening.

Another problem is just an issue of power creep. In the GBA games, the caps for your stats were 30 for your best stats and lower for others. In Awakening, caps are up to as much as 50 or more and the enemies are sometimes scaled to fit them. In Blazing Sword, even your weak units were able to take a hit most of the time, with exceptions only for extreme cases. And then you have various skills on top of that, making both your characters and the enemy characters exponentially more powerful, and in Awakening you also have the pair-up feature, giving you the potential of doubling your damage with extra attacks, completely blocking enemy attacks despite their accuracy, and giving you even more statistical boosts to work with.

So those are my theories, but I'm not hardcore enough to really know what's up here. I want to hear from the rest of you.

[Interceptor]

I apologize for sharing some of my thoughts on Lunatic in a topic dedicated to Lunatic. If you're willing to put away that snarling elitism for a rainy day, we might even be able to have a civil conversation. I was just about to explain to you, for instance, how Lunatic with "less-efficient" strategies isn't even feasible. But I'd like to get your permission first.

Riiiight... this soldier is the elitist. You can tell, because I rolled into a month-old thread, patted myself on the back for comedic genius, and declared irrelevant all discussion except that of my chosen style.

there are also probably faster iterations to an avatar solo (in terms of turncount) that haven't been explored yet.

If they exist, I'm sure you'll find them, Pope dondon. When are you planning on busting the game wide open?

[dondon151]

I don't know what this means. Player's fault for what?

he just means that if you can't imagine something being possible, you should try it out first anyway, because it's probably possible

If they exist, I'm sure you'll find them, Pope dondon. When are you planning on busting the game wide open?

didn't you hear? they picked an argentinian as pope.

at any rate, y'all are too good at this game now and i can't afford the monetary or time commitment of a 3DS. it will be a long while before i lay a finger on this game.

Edited March 19, 2013 by dondon151

[Legault!]

he just means that if you can't imagine something being possible, you should try it out first anyway, because it's probably possible

I've tried a no-exploit run before (no Veteran, Sol, grinding, SpotPass, DLC, Nosferatu) and trained up 6 non-Freddy units evenly. Mode was impossible and I'm not half bad at Fire Emblem. If others can succeed where I failed, I'll be glad to change my mind. Chapters 17 and beyond are nightmares.

[dondon151]

I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is that separates this game from...say...Blazing Sword, in terms of team composition. What features would you guys say causes Awakening to lean more towards an invincible single unit rather than the balanced teams of old?

i've already tried to answer this question somewhere earlier in the thread. i can't say for sure, because i only have hearsay to go off of.

the best comparison is against FE12 lunatic. in that game, completing maps was a team effort. the focus on seize objectives in FE12 as opposed to rout map or kill boss objectives in FE13 emphasizes the importance of player phase relative to enemy phase. there were fewer mechanics to abuse in previous games - pair up is probably one of the least balanced mechanics in the series in terms of the advantage that it confers to player units. the disparity between good and bad units in terms of combat strength is also a notable factor in promoting the invincible juggernaut paradigm: bad units are actively worse than no unit at all.

the stat inflation also has a lot to do with it, it seems. stats scale linearly in this game (e.g. a unit doubles with +5 AS over the opponent regardless if his AS is 10 or 30). it also means that units can fall behind very quickly.

I've tried a no-exploit run before (no Veteran, Sol, grinding, SpotPass, DLC, Nosferatu) and trained up 6 non-Freddy units evenly. Mode was impossible and I'm not half bad at Fire Emblem. If others can succeed where I failed, I'll be glad to change my mind. Chapters 17 and beyond are nightmares.

oh, i don't think elieson was implying that you shouldn't use exploits, although it does seem like it. but that's just because he quoted your entire statement.

Edited March 19, 2013 by dondon151

[shadykid]

he just means that if you can't imagine something being possible, you should try it out first anyway, because it's probably possible

didn't you hear? they picked an argentinian as pope.

at any rate, y'all are too good at this game now and i can't afford the monetary or time commitment of a 3DS. it will be a long while before i lay a finger on this game.

pfft, what is this, you know you can do better

[dondon151]

yeah, who am i kidding, i'm still way better at this game than y'all plebians

[Interceptor]

I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is that separates this game from...say...Blazing Sword, in terms of team composition. What features would you guys say causes Awakening to lean more towards an invincible single unit rather than the balanced teams of old? [...] So those are my theories, but I'm not hardcore enough to really know what's up here. I want to hear from the rest of you.

Fire Emblem has generally been better with low-man teams than full deployment, at least as far as the ones that I've played.

Blazing Sword had hordes of trash enemies, stat growths mattered (you couldn't just infinitely reclass until you got what you wanted). Awakening has the hordes, but the enemies are serious business. It's a little like FE7 married FE11, imo. The stat caps have a lot to do with it as well, as you mentioned, plus Pair Up giving you some limit-breaker ability and plenty of concentrated offense.

[Legault!]

"Low man deployment" translates to 2 or 3 in restricted Lunatic versus 7-8 in other games.

[Constable Reggie]

So, any real advice for 16 that isn't generic info applicable to every chapter? Also, I don't have access to nosferatu.

[Mondoflow]

Fire Emblem has generally been better with low-man teams than full deployment, at least as far as the ones that I've played.

I've never really ran a full team of people, but I usually have 6-8 at least, perhaps with a dancer or healer as extra support. In Awakening, not only can you run with basically a single unit, but it's actually more effective to have single invincible tank units with no outside support because the support is too fragile to survive anything anyway. Perhaps it wasn't the most effective strategy available, but it definitely got me through the hardest difficulties in 6-8. It wasn't until 9 that I had to start abandoning support units and switched to using...I think three total units in that one (Ike, Nephenee, and maybe Jill). I don't remember my team in 11 all that well. I remember that I cleared the last few maps by using a teleport staff to send Marth to the boss and instantly win, though, so maybe it lends itself to the lone unit strategy.

I can't say for sure which type of game I enjoy more. Even in the GBA games I really liked having heavy armor units that could wade into the middle of all the enemy units and take them out. It just seems so common now, perhaps even expected, that doing that has sort of lost its flair.

So, any real advice for 16 that isn't generic info applicable to every chapter? Also, I don't have access to nosferatu.

Is chapter 16 the one on the tree? Nothing specific comes to mind for that chapter. My units were mostly invincible by that time. The reinforcements that came in from the bottom proved to be too much to handle for my weaker members anyway, though, so I made sure to leave my avatar behind to deal with them.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Mondoflow

[Paperblade]

I always field a full team unless I'm doing a lolavatarsolo, there's no reason not to field people to give +Magic to healers or +move to Olivia or whatever

[Othin]

I always field a full team unless I'm doing a lolavatarsolo, there's no reason not to field people to give +Magic to healers or +move to Olivia or whatever

Depending on the situations, extra characters can just be dead weight who'll get themselves killed. That's how I've noticed it, anyway.

For the prevalence of single units, I'd say it's more of a matter of how powerful a single unit can get. Pair Up, unlimited leveling, high stat caps, certain skills, etc. all allow you to disproportionally dump your power into a small number of units, where it would be a waste in games where the most you could get is whatever you'd get out of being 20/20.

Regardless, Legault isn't nearly as good at this game as he thinks he is and needs to stop parading himself around as some defining standard.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Othin

[Mondoflow]

I always field a full team unless I'm doing a lolavatarsolo, there's no reason not to field people to give +Magic to healers or +move to Olivia or whatever

I didn't even field a full team on my initial run through the game on hard. It's too easy to get people killed. Or even in earlier games, like I said. There are always people that I look at and say, "I don't want you liabilities cluttering up my field."

[Quick]

I didn't even field a full team on my initial run through the game on hard. It's too easy to get people killed. Or even in earlier games, like I said. There are always people that I look at and say, "I don't want you liabilities cluttering up my field."

The only untrained unit I ever used was Maribelle in chapter 13, since I needed 2 Rescue stave users and a healer to have MU and Lon'qu just sit in that little corner and kill everything. (Maribelle was the healer) Afterwards since I got Anna she would be basically a better Maribelle.

[Interceptor]

Keeping Olivia (and similar units) alive in a game with act-immediately Enemy Phase reinforcements is just maddening. I'm just not going to do it unless required, until fireemblemwod publishes the data or I manage to memorize everything.

[Legault!]

Regardless, Legault isn't nearly as good at this game as he thinks he is and needs to stop parading himself around as some defining standard.

lol. I see what you mean, Paperblade. Thanks for the advice.

[Interceptor]

^ There's a private message feature on this forum, you know. It's pretty good, all things considered.

In other news, Number One Walking Idol hit maxed stats in everything other than MAG, doesn't know how to die, and still doubles with a little assistance. Walhart tinks her, and enjoys doing 0 damage Sols, for the lulz. I attempted to make Tiki a usable unit: she's actually not that bad in Lunatic if you give her Anna and stuff a bunch of tonics down her throat, though seems to be no time to make her a legit good unit, even though I picked her up as soon as the Paralogue was available.

Not a single Nosferatu yet, I wonder when I'm going to fail horribly. Running out of game.

[Legault!]

^ There's a private message feature on this forum, you know. It's pretty good, all things considered.

Great point. Maybe Othin should consider using that if he wants to fling hilarious insults around in the future.

And yes, Tiki is pretty usable in Lunatic (biggest challenge is recruiting her in a timely manner) and Nosferatu is in no way necessary to complete the game.

[Interceptor]

And here I just thought it was an astute observation; this thread has been pretty educational.

I assumed that Nost-hijinks were required, since someone mentioned that "evenly raised teams get creamed on later maps, so the only options are a) grinding, or b) dishing all experience to 3-4 units". It shames me to admit that not only have I failed to grind so much as a single skirmish, but also that I have fed six units that could reasonably be described as primary combatants, and a couple more that are "good enough for government work".

Figured I was doomed, really.

[Legault!]

I like the part where I didn't say Nosferatu was required to beat Lunatic.

(And I was obviously excepting you from those comments, Interceptor. Your genius transcends the rest of us.)

[shadowofchaos]

Behold, I am the scrubbiest of the scrubs in this club.

For I am going to grind and celebrate in a pub.

After which I will wash away all my tears of the pain in a washtub.

I'm not going to beat Lunatic+ legit, and I'm not ashamed... just like a common shrub.

[Mondoflow]

And here I just thought it was an astute observation; this thread has been pretty educational.

I assumed that Nost-hijinks were required, since someone mentioned that "evenly raised teams get creamed on later maps, so the only options are a) grinding, or b) dishing all experience to 3-4 units". It shames me to admit that not only have I failed to grind so much as a single skirmish, but also that I have fed six units that could reasonably be described as primary combatants, and a couple more that are "good enough for government work".

Figured I was doomed, really.

Which units are you using? What are their levels and stats? What general strategies are you employing? I'm curious if you're doing something really impressive or if the rest of us are just looking at things the wrong way and exaggerating problems.