FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Lord Raven]

It's hardly unreasonable to assume he will search for points using a search function when we tell him the arguments brought up already before he starts saying "lol thief Kellam > panne." It's one thing if its constructive, it's another when you just waltz in and continue to argue when someone's said "we have talked about it so go search for it"

[dondon151]

No sorry but being an asshat and refusing to respond to other people's arguments when they're trying to have a discussion with you isn't defensible, especially when you try to pretend that your side of the argument is self evidently true and correct and right. You can't go "Oh but it's just dondon a good old boy" because that's the same sort of cocksucking that makes him think it's okay to be a jackass to everyone that disagrees with him.

dude, i expected so much better of you

>60% Def growth as a Thief

thief sucks and offensive stats are more useful on easier difficulties

Why does she get the seal? She's better.

Why is she better? She gets the seal.

this circular reasoning is not counterintuitive

you have to view this from a cost vs. benefit standpoint. assume that panne is the best user of the first second seal and that kellam is the second best user (and that we know this fact objectively). using the second seal on kellam has an opportunity cost: the cost of not using the seal on panne. the benefit of using the second seal on kellam outweighs the cost of using the seal on panne, so the net benefit is negative.

there are plenty of other circumstances in the FE universe where this sort of assumed reasoning is true. FE5 has the speed and life rings on leaf. FE6 has the first hero crest on rutger. FE9 has BEXP dump on jill/marcia. FE10 has speedwings on haar and titania. FE11 has the chapter 4 forge on caeda's wing spear. FE12 has a speedwings on palla.

the point is that the net benefit of these decisions is so high that this assumption is justifiable. hence it is not a logical fallacy; it is sound economic decision.

Yeah, she's got nifty growths. Have you seen Lon'qu's growths as a Wyvern Rider? They're not as good (but still amazing), and he only wins in Def, but he comes with Avoid +10 and Vantage while her only skill is poop, and Lon'qu has been around longer and has supports building and all that cool stuff. Why isn't he above her? Lon'qu too OP.

lon'qu's bases are much worse...

Are we ignoring opportunity cost? Just because Panne is the best use of a resource doesn't mean that there isn't a negative associated with giving her that resource. +10 -5 is still only +5, not the full +10 that using the resource without a cost would give.

what do you mean by "ignoring" opportunity cost

the only distinction here is that you're assuming the net benefit to be small whereas we evaluate the net benefit to be large. if the opportunity cost is small, then you can't tell whether we are "ignoring" the opportunity cost.

You'll notice that the net benefit is not +10. But then in comparisons of Panne vs. [other unit], you would be using her full stats to compare to the other unit, which treats the benefit as though it were in fact +10. This is why the representation is flawed.

but you cannot make a functional argument with this consideration. "well, panne's seal had an opportunity cost, so in her comparison with sully, let's subtract an intangible amount of benefit from her value, and then..."

Assuming that the unit who makes best use of a resource gets unrestricted access to that resource and then comparing that unit + that resource to other units is similar to saying that Titania in FE9 never gets any killing blows because other units make better use of those EXP gains. While that's technically true, there's a clear and obvious benefit to using someone like Titania over someone like Soren (who would need that EXP).

what this line of reasoning is totally not true

titania gets killing blows all the time because it cuts turns. if the metric of benefit is the number of saved turns, then giving titania kills is logically consistent with giving panne the change seal if WR panne can cut more turns than thief kellam.

you know, it's not like i just pooped out some insults and dumped holy water on everyone else here because i am ~the pope~. if you're under the impression that i was intentionally being nasty with these folks and dodging the arguments, then you've honed in on the maybe 3 slightly humorous posts that i've made and missed the big picture.

Half the people defending the tier list haven't even made an attempt to argue, they just started flaming because Inui is Inui. When your idea of a discussion is to shout people down and scream "NO YOU'RE WRONG" while concurrently expecting people to read 400 posts of the aforementioned screaming, you don't get to act high and mighty, that's simply not how things work. You people wonder why your tier list has no fucking activity, and the truth is that you're too self absorbed to accept differing viewpoints, so no one bothers to stick around.

when i recommended inui to familiarize himself with current standards, who decided to be snarky and respond with an image macro?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

hey can we all just shut the fuck up because i'm going to start reporting meta-tiering posts in this tread en masse

First off, here's my rundown of things.

1: Inui, I'm not going to take you seriously if you expect you can ignore the fact that all your questions have already been answered.

2: Panne is moving up to Avatar's tier.

3: I could see Nowi to B, but I'm not sure where she should end up. What are we thinking for her?

4: I'll move Ricken up to below Virion, but no higher. He simply doesn't earn it. I also might move Donnel out of his bottom tier, just because he's usable and above all good father material.

5: Not really feeling healers up considering their mediocre stats and the fact that you get two excellent staff users in Anna and Libra remarkably early.

6: I really don't want to get into the can of worms that is kid tiering, simply because there are too many variables involved. I do, however, think that there is some merit in ordering their potential fathers and then giving them a "tier range" depending on the difference between best and worst (with the implication that Avatar tops pretty much any list). Kids would be given these ranges based on effectiveness, time of arrival, reclass options, etc.. Might take some work, but it's better than trying to tier every permutation of kids on the list. I might also make Morgan an exception to this because he is pretty much guaranteed to be great, and is rather in the same boat as Lucina. However, the fact that Lucina autorecruits makes me less apt to take this route.

If there are any other considerations to be made please post and let me know. Keep it civil, guys, and don't shit up the thread with age-old rivalries and debate about debaters rather than about content.

[Shadow Mir]

Okay, so was there any particular reasoning that Kellam was as high as he is? He looks a bit high to me...

[grandjackal]

Okay, so was there any particular reasoning that Kellam was as high as he is? He looks a bit high to me...

I'd venture it's cause giving +5 Def and +3 Str off the bat is a pretty godlike support for guys like Lonqu and Cordelia. Basically if the unit already has speed, Kellam turns them into god machines.

At least, that's my thoughts on him.

[eclipse]

3: I could see Nowi to B, but I'm not sure where she should end up. What are we thinking for her?

I'm not a huge fan of Nowi, but I suppose she could go where Cherche is. . .speaking of Cherche should move down a bit in B. Axes/flying are nice, but not when your claim to fame is doubling armors (and if we're gluing someone fast to Nowi, we'll need someone ELSE that's fast to stick to Cherche, 'cause her Speed's that bad).

6: I really don't want to get into the can of worms that is kid tiering, simply because there are too many variables involved. I do, however, think that there is some merit in ordering their potential fathers and then giving them a "tier range" depending on the difference between best and worst (with the implication that Avatar tops pretty much any list). Kids would be given these ranges based on effectiveness, time of arrival, reclass options, etc.. Might take some work, but it's better than trying to tier every permutation of kids on the list. I might also make Morgan an exception to this because he is pretty much guaranteed to be great, and is rather in the same boat as Lucina. However, the fact that Lucina autorecruits makes me less apt to take this route.

Morgan/Lucina aside, I doubt that any of the kids would outright replace an existing unit in an efficient run. Thus, while you could do something based off of stats/skills/classes, I'd rather get this tier list in order first. I think you can put Morgan in there somewhere, just by virtue of the fact that he'll have one of Ignis/Rally Spectrum to his name, and because it's not that hard to chew through his Paralogue.

(I'm assuming Morgan is male for ease of reference)

[Florete]

2: Panne is moving up to Avatar's tier.

Random change that no one agreed on and was contested by multiple people?

Okay.

No, seriously, this is dumb. This is freaking Avatar. Avatar is breaking the game in half before Panne even exists, and Panne needs to get some levels and eat a Second Seal (she might be the best, but needing it is a negative in comparison) just to compete, and even then she's a few unlucky hits with her three weaknesses away from a reset. While it's been pointed out she's good with Axes, it still must be noted that she has to work her way up from E. And she doesn't even get there until, what, chapter 8 when we get the first Second Seal? How the hell is this on the same level as Avatar?

[Sol Hiryu]

A few things.

@Panne - I personally think she's fine where she is. She's an excellent unit, but despite her incredible offense, she still has to watch for flier weaknesses (she really detests wind magic) and for random Beast Killers. I think that plus the fact she needs to take the Second Seal to get going should really keep her from moving up.

@Nowi - I'd personally put her at the bottom of B and move Tiki down to top of C. Tiki's stats are great, but she comes in so late...especially after such a difficult paralogue. Conversely, Nowi's base stats are horrible but she can quickly get out of her hole with the right tools, not to mention she has far more support options than Tiki.

@Donnel&Ricken - Both of them should probably move above Basilio/Flavia and no higher than that. Personally I don't really care about which one of them is over the other, but I still maintain that neither Basilio or Flavia should be over anyone considering how late and bad they are.

@Healers - Yeah, their stats suck and healing isn't so great in this game, but until you get Anna and Libra, they're literally the only ones keeping everyone healed up. Even after said healers join, Libra is the only one who has instant Physic access, at which point one or both of the starting healers should have C. I would maintain that they're better than Kellam at the very least.

@Olivia - This was brought up by SolidSense earlier, and I had a longer argument articulated (which I thought better of and deleted), but right now I feel that she's fine where she is, although I really think a discussion on who uses the Boots the best would be nice. 7 Move Olivia would eliminate one of her main problems, but there's also the fact that her fragility is really hindering in regards to taking risks with her. I think her usefulness on indoor maps versus her uselessness on open maps cancel each other out.

[Paperblade]

thief sucks and offensive stats are more useful on easier difficulties

A. +1 move is one of the most useful skills to get from an unpromoted class (only Veteran and Armsthrift are better)

B. It's pretty obvious you haven't played the game since you think offensive stats are needed when we have 80% Adept, Pair Up+Forges are WAY better at shoring up offensive issues

anyway bro the community has gotten much better at this game since you've been absent so

good luck arguing anything successfully

needless flamebait

and thief kellam with E swords is so much better right

useless sarcastic comment

this circular reasoning is not counterintuitive

you have to view this from a cost vs. benefit standpoint. assume that panne is the best user of the first second seal and that kellam is the second best user (and that we know this fact objectively). using the second seal on kellam has an opportunity cost: the cost of not using the seal on panne. the benefit of using the second seal on kellam outweighs the cost of using the seal on panne, so the net benefit is negative.

there are plenty of other circumstances in the FE universe where this sort of assumed reasoning is true. FE5 has the speed and life rings on leaf. FE6 has the first hero crest on rutger. FE9 has BEXP dump on jill/marcia. FE10 has speedwings on haar and titania. FE11 has the chapter 4 forge on caeda's wing spear. FE12 has a speedwings on palla.

the point is that the net benefit of these decisions is so high that this assumption is justifiable. hence it is not a logical fallacy; it is sound economic decision.

actual post

lon'qu's bases are much worse...

Another post that makes the fact that you have literally no idea what you are talking about apparent, since Lon'qu has nearly 3 chapters of availability to gain levels before Panne exists (Panne joins on Turn 2 of Ch. 6 but if you're using Pair Up she will be hardpressed to get catch up to get EXP)

this community has moved past using theoryFE to evaluate dancers and prefers to examine practical circumstances instead

keep up with the times, yo

more useless sarcasm, note that you didn't actually explain why Solide's argument was wrong, you just assumed it was self evident because you said it was.

what do you mean by "ignoring" opportunity cost

the only distinction here is that you're assuming the net benefit to be small whereas we evaluate the net benefit to be large. if the opportunity cost is small, then you can't tell whether we are "ignoring" the opportunity cost.

actually useful post

but you cannot make a functional argument with this consideration. "well, panne's seal had an opportunity cost, so in her comparison with sully, let's subtract an intangible amount of benefit from her value, and then..."

Unfortunately your above post is immediately contradicted by this one. Can we measure opportunity cost, or do we just arbitrarily decide between "big" and "small"

what this line of reasoning is totally not true

titania gets killing blows all the time because it cuts turns. if the metric of benefit is the number of saved turns, then giving titania kills is logically consistent with giving panne the change seal if WR panne can cut more turns than thief kellam.

this isn't an LTC list, once again showing that you assume that everyone must think like you do

ahaha okay so inui and CATS or whatever peon solidsense is (honestly it's so hard to tell you guys apart) waltz into a topic and turn up their boomboxes, sportin' their bellbottoms and cordless phones

good shit dudes. good vibrations.

useless flamebait

no. marky mark and the funky bunch.

more useless shit

panne joins a map and a turn later than lon'qu and has 2 higher base level. panne has higher movement as taguel than lon'qu has as myrm. if anything, panne should have the level lead.

More proof that your information is entirely based on what you've read on SF's database and that you've never played the game

so you disagree that jumping into a topic and wielding years-old logic is a waste of our time? i'm not insulted, but i should be!

and the thing is that i actually don't know who you are. i just remember seeing your name on FEplanet a long time ago. so am i wrong in lumping you, inui, and CATS together?

You're asked to stop being a douchebag and decide that today is opposite day

um so is what i said not true

have i not countered the arguments that i am able to counter

Considering that you haven't played the game, the number of things you're able to counter is approximately zero.

So yeah, I guess technically you're right

i don't know if you are trying to be all badass-cool-guy or something but consider reading a bit more closely next time. i don't need to try to counter solid's arguments further because either the examples he brings up are not wholly relevant (master seal on lyn/eliwood is leagues different from change seal on panne) or he's trying to argue against something that i'm not suggesting (which is called strawmanning, except in this case it's not quite as bad because i think he is just misunderstanding instead of copping out).

You don't explain how the comparison is "leagues different." How is promotion different from Second Seal? Both increase the power of the unit, except promotion is frontloaded, whereas Second Sealing increases EXP gain by lowering effective level and giving them more skills (immediately+longterm), and both are heavily contested resources. Again, the fact that you haven't played the game is ever-apparent, since if you had, you would know that unless your class set is truly awful (Ricken, Virion), you always want to Second Seal asap.

lastly, using years-old logic in a tier list really is nothing but a waste of our time.

You know what's a real waste of time? You trying to shoehorn your opinion in here when every time you actually try to talk about FE13 it becomes painfully apparent that you haven't actually played the fucking game. Literally every time you've tried to discuss this game specifically your information has been wrong.

the standards have changed

How?

(for one, we don't treat everything like one of those debates anymore)

Debate tournaments were always separate from tier lists, once again showing that you're just talking shit because your ego has gotten too big for its own good

and it's either up to these guys to spend a little bit of time understanding tiering philosophy

Which is what?

or us wasting our time patronizing them like schoolchildren. frankly, if someone like inui can't be bothered to read "20 pages of posts" to tease out character positions in this tier list, then we shouldn't be bothered to type up 5 pages of posts explaining them to him.

You're wasting everyone's time by sitting here spouting bullshit

so now so it seems that solid's problem is with the tiering philosophy, which is fine. opportunity costs and all that. but the thing is that we, as a community, have been over this already in the FE10 tier list, and i sure as heck don't want to go through it again. additionally, the arguments that he has been presenting have not been sufficient in linking his points with real examples. so am i wrong in mocking them by likening them to 90s enthusiasts?

Tiering philosophy is literally the only thing you've done in this topic that's anything of worth, because everything else is empty provocations or factually wrong

I would say I expected more from you, but I would be lying.

@SDS: Why have a tier list if you're not going to listen to anyone and just make changes at your own whim? You did the same shit to zorbees in #feto when you were setting up the initial list and did it in previous lists you ran too.

edit: missed this

when i recommended inui to familiarize himself with current standards, who decided to be snarky and respond with an image macro?

That post was in response to you literally just telling Solid "No you're wrong we do things differently now" without explaining why, what did you expect? There was nothing to respond to.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Paperblade

[dondon151]

man i am just going to say this

being egotistical and expecting others to make simple conclusions are not equivalent. clearly there is some deeply repressed resentment here that drew out, among other things, a misplaced sense of righteous indignation targeted at a marky mark and the funky bunch reference and numerous misuses of the word "literally."

i don't particularly feel the need to defend myself from your little outburst here but i want to set two things straight:

1. of course i don't own this game. in accordance with that, i haven't made any suggestions for changes to the tier list. i am not that full of myself. FE experience is what it is, though. i am certainly qualified to explain why archers suck, base stats are good, and resources go to certain units.

2. i don't know if it is because you and inui are best buddies or something or if my abrasive posts rub you the wrong way, but you really seemed to miss the point. lord raven understood exactly what i was saying whereas you flipped out as if i cussed out your mother. i don't have it out for inui but the fact that he came in all gung-ho, pretending like he could get away with the bullshit that usually flies in debates, and clearly stating that he didn't put in the effort to read a previous discussion didn't really endear his opinion to me.

Edited March 24, 2013 by dondon151

[Legault!]

Wow, this topic blew up. Couple of things:

First, moving Panne up to Avatar tier is dumb and I'm pro-Panne. Panne is amazing. Veteran!Avatar might be the best unit in Fire Emblem. This isn't up for discussion.

Second, Inui is absolutely right about how silly underrated Sorcerer is on this board for some inexplicable reason. Tharja doesn't have meaningful hit problems -- Hex, Anathema, Pair Up bonuses, skill potions. If we're willing to blow 2.5K as a given for Panne to reclass, I don't know why we cant throw out a buck fifty for Tharja to get a skill potion and become literally invincible. Her being in B-tier is disgraceful. I'd argue her close to Panne if not above her, since this isn't an LTC list and reliable completion of maps at a brisk pace >> slightly faster completion with lower reliability.

Third, why in the hell is everyone an elitist asshole.

Not like having poor magic matters considering they still use Lances, and are more than capable or 2HKOing even as a Dark Flier.

What else would FeMU want to class change to? Dark Flier is amazing for her considering that she basically only uses magic as a Tactician, so the loss of swords is nothing worth sweating over. The only other classes I think you could make a good case for are Valkyrie and Dark Knight.

1. If we're accepting that magic use is irrelevant and DF will stick to lances, then FK is a completely superior class considering better promotion bonuses and staves.

2. Sorcerer.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Legault!

[dondon151]

since this isn't an LTC list and reliable completion of maps at a brisk pace >> slightly faster completion with lower reliability.

well i've already told you

this is an LTC list

it's just that everyone has a slightly different definition or perception of LTC

i point you once more to FE11 wolf/sedgar vs. caeda

[Legault!]

well i've already told you

this is an LTC list

it's just that everyone has a slightly different definition or perception of LTC

i point you once more to FE11 wolf/sedgar vs. caeda

Except that people don't agree this is an absolute LTC list. We're just repeating old arguments at this point: either it's absolute LTC, or else it's semi-LTC in which case "low turn count" needs to be better defined or else tradeoffs between reliability and speed become subjective.

[dondon151]

no one thinks that this an absolute LTC tier list. that's not to say that someone might come along and do otherwise, though. everyone thinks it's some form of what you call "semi-LTC." that's really where the "tharja in B tier is too low" vs. "tharja in B tier is too high / just right" dichotomy comes from.

Edited March 24, 2013 by dondon151

[Legault!]

Then we don't disagree and the next step would be better defining "brisk pace."

[Paperblade]

The only person who thinks this is an LTC list is Dondon

[Interceptor]

Glad that the shitposting has quieted down for now; maybe we can get back to discussing unit differences in a tier settings, instead of the thread becoming some creeper's liveblog/Q&A console, or a place where we re-enact wars from 2009 while wearing our gang colors. Pro-tip: if someone says something dumb, it's not necessary to hit the Reply button and tell them so.

2: Panne is moving up to Avatar's tier.

This is basically ludicrous; you could have at least accompanied this with an actual argument, although I understand why this would be difficult considering that said argument doesn't exist. Panne and Avatar are not even on the same planet. If you want this tier list to have any sort of credibility whatsoever, you need to understand that Panne's performance has costs/weaknesses, and those things actually do matter.

6: I really don't want to get into the can of worms that is kid tiering, simply because there are too many variables involved. I do, however, think that there is some merit in ordering their potential fathers and then giving them a "tier range" depending on the difference between best and worst (with the implication that Avatar tops pretty much any list). Kids would be given these ranges based on effectiveness, time of arrival, reclass options, etc.. Might take some work, but it's better than trying to tier every permutation of kids on the list. I might also make Morgan an exception to this because he is pretty much guaranteed to be great, and is rather in the same boat as Lucina. However, the fact that Lucina autorecruits makes me less apt to take this route.

For now it would be sufficient to come up with some way to deal with the number and frequency of children Paralogues, due to the effect that they have on the tier position of people who want the extra training opportunities. Kid tiering in itself can come later.

Tharja doesn't have meaningful hit problems -- Hex, Anathema, Pair Up bonuses, skill potions. If we're willing to blow 2.5K as a given for Panne to reclass, I don't know why we cant throw out a buck fifty for Tharja to get a skill potion and become literally invincible. Her being in B-tier is disgraceful. I'd argue her close to Panne if not above her, since this isn't an LTC list and reliable completion of maps at a brisk pace >> slightly faster completion with lower reliability.

Invincibility is not everything, even if it's actual invincibility (which hers is not). The hit problems are definitely overblown, but they do exist: Tharja is a unit with flaws. Her LCK is gross, her offense can stall against high RES targets, etc. She is on my short list of units to try in HM at a fast pace; I've used her before to good effect, but I was taking my time.

Third, why in the hell is everyone an elitist asshole.

Think about what we're discussing, here: relative unit rankings in a niche strategy game, taking place on the Internet. Although in defense of the community, not everyone is a snarky degenerate. QE still hangs out with us, after all, and she is 100% rainbows and sunshine.

[Espinosa]

I smell that Panne is going to be the Linde of this tier list.

[Legault!]

@Interceptor: Tharja's luck is indeed hideous, but I wonder if this is really a problem. For hit, see: Anathema / Hex / Pair Up / skill potions. For critical evade, see: lolHard enemies. Tharja's avoid is fine as it is and she doesn't particularly mind less-than-perfect avoid given her Nosferatanking utility.

Tharja certainly has flaws. So does Avatar. What should be asked is whether or not her flaws warrant a B-tier placement. You ought to give her a fair shake next go around.

[Redwall]

I apologize for my part in the shitposting.

But yeah, count me among those puzzled about Panne's promotion. While both Avatar and Panne are the most dangerous offensive threats in the game, Avatar is nigh-invincible; Panne is not.

[Inui]

1: Inui, I'm not going to take you seriously if you expect you can ignore the fact that all your questions have already been answered.

You're bad at this game, which will be proven in the next part.

2: Panne is moving up to Avatar's tier.

omg

my sides

i can't

Avatar can literally solo the game on Lunatic, has Veteran, has access to all classes, all supports, doesn't get one-shot by wind magic and bows like Wyvern Panne, and is available longer, and is in the same tier as this rabbit bitch? I'd gladly do a formal debate of Tharja vs any of you using Panne. I hate tier debates because the elitism here is just too much, sadly.

4: I'll move Ricken up to below Virion, but no higher. He simply doesn't earn it. I also might move Donnel out of his bottom tier, just because he's usable and above all good father material.

Nah. Ricken is solidly the worst unit. Look at his class spread and growths. Nothing can salvage him.

Donnel in "Hard" Mode turns into Jesus Christ after becoming a Mercenary, which is NOT hard at all to get him to in such an easy mode. He's certainly astronomically better than Panne once he reclasses to Mercenary, and then has infinite Armsthrift and Sol eventually, which makes him cruuuuush her in durability and cost effectiveness. If everyone thinks Panne has exclusive rights to a Second Seal, I'd say Donnel has even more of a right considering he turns out substantially better than her after being given one.

@ whoever said Avatar is the best unit ever: Nope, it's Sigurd. Not a bad choice for second place though.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Inui

[Samias]

Tharja gets outright murdered by killer weapons for quite some time, but she doesn't really have hit problems and in my experience her defense growth is very, very good. She might as well be at the top of B tier or bottom of A tier as one of the best mages, completely destroying Miriel in durability while maintaining the same power. But Henry's speed means he's taking a speed support simply not to get doubled and his res growth is surprisingly bad. Henry is definitely worse than Tharja and comes in nearly midway through the game. I can't see him as more than C tier no matter how great dark magic is.

[Blademaster!]

If Nowi is going to be in B-Tier, I can't see Tharja going above her, even with Nostanking. I haven't really ever tried using Tharja, but from my current playthrough, I'm actually curious as to whether she can even get started as fast as Nowi can, and I wouldn't even be able to baby Tharja the same way I could Nowi since Nosferatu only has 20 uses available for 2 1/2 chapters, not to mention it's more expensive than a Dragon Stone when accounting for weapon use in the long run anyway.

Edit: @Inui If you're going to argue for Donnel going up, please give an explanation on how you even plan on getting him started. I'm actually curious to see them.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Blademaster!

[KitheOfEvrark]

Count me in on the "keep Panne down" bandwagon. She's much more comparable to the units in S tier than she is to Avatar.

If we're using a moderately focused team (6-10 active units), Nowi definitely has the opportunity to become a beast. Even without her optimal support partner (Gregor), Tonics and such can still let her get up to par without too much trouble. I'd support her going up to B tier, maybe just below Lucina?

I've seen a whole lot of discussion about Gregor as Nowi's support partner, but not much about him as a unit. I guess his speed is a little low for a mercenary, but he seems like he's easier to use than Vaike. Then again, I haven't seriously used Gregor so take this with a grain of salt.

[Inui]

Since when is raising units with good 2 range attacks difficult? I don't understand this. I thought dondon said everyone got better at the games, not worse. Tharja and Henry don't take counters when they join and pair up exists to get around any stat flaws they might have. Raise 'em up a bit, and then you have invincible units. You can't purchase Nosferatu for a few chapters but you already have stuff like Elfire and Elthunder to get easy kills with them since they do huge damage and have skills to increase their hit chances. Tharja even doubles kinda easily right away. There are still more than 10 chapters and a whole lot of Paralogues after Henry joins. I'd say having invincible god tanks is well worth some babying. I mean, if Panne is entitled to a Second Seal above all other units and has exclusive rights to it and some babying, then why don't units like Donnel, Tharja, and Henry have such rights when they end up better after being given similar treatment? Panne will NEVER boast invincibility because you're all making her a FLIER. Forged Silver Bows, forged Rexcalibur, etc. all become commonplace later on and can kill her in one hit. Meanwhile, Tharja and Henry can't die. Neither can Donnel cuz lol Sol with infinite use X god tier weapon.

Nobody with access to the Sorcerer class can be bad.

Edit: @Inui If you're going to argue for Donnel going up, please give an explanation on how you even plan on getting him started. I'm actually curious to see them.

I hate raising up units. I'm known for loving prepromoted units. But, Donnel is an exception.

A simple pair up lets him get to level 10 and then reclass fairly easily. Someone like Frederick will give him huge Str which means his attacks can do damage. If unit X can get the kill that Donnel can get with lance poke, give it to Donnel. Killing a thief in his joining chapter nets him 90 EXP. I found him astonishingly easy to raise in "Hard" Mode. In Lunatic it's a bit tough, but it's not hard in Lunatic because pair up exists and you can poke things like thieves and archers. It's reasonable for him to be a Mercenary by the time you're in Tharja's joining chapter or something, and he can just stay behind and solo all of those garbage reinforcement Wyvern Riders with his lol Bronze Sword surprisingly easily. Suddenly, he's your best unit because his stats are ridiculous and his weapons have nearly infinite uses and will eventually literally have infinite users. INFINITE USES OF GOD TIER WEAPONS AND SOL. And Donnel can have this for a long time. How the hell does Panne, who can die in one hit, compete with the invincibility of Heroes and Sorcerers and Heroes having INFINITE USES OF WEAPONS?

Edit: I don't see the option to delete my own post LOL please don't ban me for double posting.

MODEDIT: i admit i was a little bit tempted to but then i decided to just merge them instead

Edited March 24, 2013 by Integrity