FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Lord Raven]

basically it's undefined so that SDS and people that SDS agrees with can flipflop on it to support whatever they want to support

As far as I'm aware tier lists have never had rigid definitions and many people have argued, in the past, that

a) rigid definitions are bad for discussion

b) rigid definitions create a tier list that applies to a few set of restrictions as opposed to a broader, all(well, most)-encompassing tier list

Once again, that's what I've gotten from past discussions about tier list theory. There's a difference between what me and grandjackel said and "guess what, we will do whatever is in our power to support what we want to support."

[Seven Deadly Sins]

"brisk pace" is not explicitly defined so that I can say "don't be morons" while not having to explicitly ban things that kill discussion. It will never be rigidly defined because its wording is designed to be vague.

Also I meant it when I said that I want this civil. Cut it out.

[Redwall]

edit: otherwise the tier list would be

Avatar(F)

Sumia

Frederick

Olivia

Rescuebots

everyone else

Would this still be the case with restrictions on Rescue (e.g. no more than one use per turn and/or non-buyable Rescue only)? I've not any experience with the draft scene, but it seems like with such restrictions, there ought to be enough options in HM to make the game interesting and to prevent the tierlist from becoming something stale like what you mention.

[Paperblade]

a) rigid definitions are bad for discussion

Who said that?

Would this still be the case with restrictions on Rescue (e.g. no more than one use per turn and/or non-buyable Rescue only)? I've not any experience with the draft scene, but it seems like with such restrictions, there ought to be enough options in HM to make the game interesting and to prevent the tierlist from becoming something stale like what you mention.

the alternative is to just make a lunatic tier list

Edited March 26, 2013 by Paperblade

[Constable Reggie]

Just went back and compared hard mode stats to lunatic and holy shit Fred seriously needs to go down. In chapter 1, the difference goes from Chrom (paired with avatar) being able to reasonably take on all the units (2hkoes them while 3-5hkoed in return) in hard to being a pathetic loser (2hkoed and 3hkoes in return) in lunatic. Frederick is seriously being overrated (well, to the point where he should probably drop to bottom of S or the like), considering most earlygame units in hard actually have reasonable combat parameters. If anyone can tell me how Fred can manage to get enough exp to stay relevant when he's no longer needed to do 75% of the combat earlygame, I'd love to hear it. Sumia's support can only help him for so long.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[grandjackal]

That's a load of crap. You really think +5 Spd at S support on top of however much she gives from her own Spd (2-3) and, if absolutely needed, a Speed Tonic (this totals +10) is "unfixable?" Sure, they won't start there, but they'll get there, and you're grasping at straws if you try to argue otherwise.

There's still the question of why you're even bothering carrying the luggage. What do these people offer Cordelia other than...Well, Henry offers Def, but again this is what she has Kellam for. But really, what do they offer her that she can make use of? It's a support that doesn't work for either of them. It's cute at best.

In fact, how about some in-game evidence? I have a convenient save at Ch 14, right after Henry is recruited. He has 9 base Spd. Let's assume that among Ch 13 and 1 or 2 kid Paralogues (like Morgan's, of course), Cordelia and Henry reach C and Cordelia has reached at least 20 Spd. Let's also give him a Speed Tonic because lol150 gold. This puts Henry at 9 + 4 + 2 + 2 = 17 Spd assuming he hasn't even gotten anything from levels.

Pegasi are just out of reach, 19-20 Spd.

Knights have 6 Spd.

Mages have 12-13.

Cavaliers have 13.

The Generals have 11.

The Great Knights have 15, as well as the boss.

+1 Spd from a level up and he's doubling over half of the map. He misses the Pegasi, the two Great Knights, and the boss.

So even after 3 chapters, I can't even expect something consistent with tonics included? Come on, the dude can't even double Knights without help, am I supposed to be impressed that with all the help in the world he still struggles to double not even all of the map?

Sumia is not going to have 20 Spd when Cordelia shows. But I don't care about this useless Fred thing. Is Sumia a better partner for him? Sure. But only slightly. It's sure not putting her above Cordelia.

So Cordelia joins later and supports a bunch of people who are just worse than Fred up until like the final stretch of the game, so she's...better? If Sumia gives Fred's performance more magnitude early on, she should get credit for it. As Int said, I don't even have to use her long term to have Fred's earlygame be more substantial because of her. The fact Sumia is also made great because of Fred is a bonus that stretches for a good course of the game, and it's something Cordelia has a hard time copying.

Okay? Cordelia has 13 options to Sumia's 5, and only one of Sumia's isn't in Cordelia's 13. There's going to be a good option for her. She's much more flexible based on whatever circumstances the player has.

If all of these options are inferior to the 1 Sumia cares about, why should I care that Cordelia has more of them? This is a tier list after all. If all you're doing is helping a thousand people suck less, it won't garner as much attention as one character performing like a god.

Everyone may as well be support dependent with how broken the mechanic is, and I'm sure Fred can perform well enough with an S, but the fact of the matter is that his stats just won't hold up. Most of the time you won't really want to field him over others and before long he may just end up a support bot unless he gets over leveled.

If Frederick proves that he's still a good support bot in the lategame, then I see no issue with this. True that his stats will probably not break the 30s, but a good portion still hit the 20s. He an easily go Paladin for Defender if he wishes. If it helps Sumia into the lategame, then what does it matter? It's not like the exp goes completely wasted.

To further my point, point me to when Fred supposedly falls off. Just give me a ballpark estimate, cause right now I'm at chapter 12 and Sumia's giving him a cushy 21 AS while he sits on 20 Str, Def, 11 Res. Because of Sumia, he is technically still the best character on my team.

I would only consider it relevant if we had access to a reasonable amount of Silvers before Cordelia achieves one whole weapon rank. Really now.

What did you do with Frederick's silver lance, smoke it? You're not exactly dying to burn it in every fight, and Avatar has a Bronze Sword which in all likeliness won't bother to ever use cause magic is better.

More grasping at straws.

How is that grasping at straws? I'm just pointing out a thing that is possible.

[eclipse]

Just went back and compared hard mode stats to lunatic and holy shit Fred seriously needs to go down. In chapter 1, the difference goes from Chrom (paired with avatar) being able to reasonably take on all the units (2hkoes them while 3-5hkoed in return) in hard to being a pathetic loser (2hkoed and 3hkoes in return) in lunatic. Frederick is seriously being overrated (well, to the point where he should probably drop to bottom of S or the like), considering most earlygame units in hard actually have reasonable combat parameters. If anyone can tell me how Fred can manage to get enough exp to stay relevant when he's no longer needed to do 75% of the combat earlygame, I'd love to hear it. Sumia's support can only help him for so long.

I shamelessly abuse Freddie, but that's because he amuses me. Ahem. . .his Silver Lance will OHKO things for a bit, and he usually ends up killing the early bosses. After that, I have him tanking things, while everyone else gets leftovers. Any levels he gets in Speed help. I try to play at some semblance of a brisk pace, but there's certain chapters I haven't figured out how to speed through (Chapter 5 is one of them).

[Constable Reggie]

That's fine and dandy but when enemy stats start to ramp up quickly he won't be able to keep up as well as the other S rank characters who will easily be overpassing him what with his awful exp growth. He's still great, but Lucina annihilates him with her infinite options, and Chrom and Sully will match and eventually overtake Fred's combat pretty quickly. Fred can't even reclass until level 10, which won't be a while since he's not getting nearly as much exp as he would in lunatic. Fred's very useful, but not crucial early/midgame contributions can't possibly make up for that.

[Florete]

There's still the question of why you're even bothering carrying the luggage. What do these people offer Cordelia other than...Well, Henry offers Def, but again this is what she has Kellam for. But really, what do they offer her that she can make use of? It's a support that doesn't work for either of them. It's cute at best.

The argument has changed from Cordelia being dependent on her partner to Cordelia getting nothing from her partner.

This whole thing is ridiculous.

So even after 3 chapters, I can't even expect something consistent with tonics included? Come on, the dude can't even double Knights without help, am I supposed to be impressed that with all the help in the world he still struggles to double not even all of the map?

I gave him three chapters and didn't even level him up. He has an estimated 55% Spd growth. Connect the dots.

So Cordelia joins later and supports a bunch of people who are just worse than Fred up until like the final stretch of the game, so she's...better? If Sumia gives Fred's performance more magnitude early on, she should get credit for it. As Int said, I don't even have to use her long term to have Fred's earlygame be more substantial because of her. The fact Sumia is also made great because of Fred is a bonus that stretches for a good course of the game, and it's something Cordelia has a hard time copying.

Except they're not worse than Fred by the time you hit the game's halfway point. You are putting all your eggs in the Fred basket here, but did you know Fred doesn't have to support Sumia? If it's Spd he wants, he can get that in various amounts from Avatar, Chrom, Sully, Panne, and Cordelia. Three of those come before Sumia and all are above her on the list...or will be once Cordelia > Sumia happens.

Your entire Sumia > Cordelia argument relies on Fred, but he will 1) not always be in play, at least for so long, and 2) sometimes just plain be supporting someone else. She's arguably not involved in any of the best pairings for the men (or women, even) available to her and her limited support list makes this a serious problem compared to Cordelia, who can basically just be dropped on any team and likely get a marriage partner, having better stats and giving them the same boosts to boot by the time we fight Gangrel (if her partner is there when she shows up). Sumia's defense lies completely in her availability, but she's mediocre before she gets a running support and Cordelia, despite also having a mediocre start, will catch up and pass her in as much time as it takes Sumia to get anywhere, or less.

You're putting a big restraint on the player for this since if Sumia doesn't have Fred, your whole argument basically implodes. Unless you want to make a case for Sumia x Gaius.

If Frederick proves that he's still a good support bot in the lategame, then I see no issue with this. True that his stats will probably not break the 30s, but a good portion still hit the 20s. He an easily go Paladin for Defender if he wishes. If it helps Sumia into the lategame, then what does it matter? It's not like the exp goes completely wasted.

Two fighting units in a pair is preferable to one. Plus if Fred is relegated to support bot, this really becomes a problem when Sumia's Str isn't enough to kill enemies and Fred's attacks miss or do minimal damage.

To further my point, point me to when Fred supposedly falls off. Just give me a ballpark estimate, cause right now I'm at chapter 12 and Sumia's giving him a cushy 21 AS while he sits on 20 Str, Def, 11 Res. Because of Sumia, he is technically still the best character on my team.

Did you know that this ability is not exclusive to Sumia?

What did you do with Frederick's silver lance, smoke it? You're not exactly dying to burn it in every fight, and Avatar has a Bronze Sword which in all likeliness won't bother to ever use cause magic is better.

One Silver Lance. If it wasn't plainly obvious, I was looking for a bit more than that. How long do you actually think it takes Cordelia to reach B Lances? Drop this line, honestly, it's pointless.

How is that grasping at straws? I'm just pointing out a thing that is possible.

You tried to sweep the obvious advantage under the rug like it doesn't exist while simultaneously trying to turn the exact same concept into an advantage for Sumia that, quite frankly, actually doesn't exist.

[eclipse]

That's fine and dandy but when enemy stats start to ramp up quickly he won't be able to keep up as well as the other S rank characters who will easily be overpassing him what with his awful exp growth. He's still great, but Lucina annihilates him with her infinite options, and Chrom and Sully will match and eventually overtake Fred's combat pretty quickly. Fred can't even reclass until level 10, which won't be a while since he's not getting nearly as much exp as he would in lunatic. Fred's very useful, but not crucial early/midgame contributions can't possibly make up for that.

You asked how I feed him experience. I answered. Why are you still going on?

[grandjackal]

The argument has changed from Cordelia being dependent on her partner to Cordelia getting nothing from her partner.

This whole thing is ridiculous.

You brought up Ricken and Henry like they meant something to her, you can't seriously be thinking they actually make good supports. Ya know, I've been conceding Kellam at every turn, and you just try to bring up supports that blow for some amusing reason. My point merely is that her supposed long list of suitors doesn't mean jack if they aren't effective, and a good majority of the time that is the case. Why would I want to use supports that hardly give either her or her partner something substantial? It's why I keep bringing up Kellam, he gives her things she actually wants

It's like I'm trying to be the super nice guy and you go and try to find any garbage dump punk you can find cause they're loud assholes. I don't care about Ricken's garage band, and Henry is about two steps away from stabbing you in a back alley with a rusty pice of broken pipework while being high on coke. What is wrong with Kellam? He's nice, he cares about the well being of others. FFS RFoF, the dude can make jewelry.

I gave him three chapters and didn't even level him up. He has an estimated 55% Spd growth. Connect the dots.

Meanwhile, Cordelia has been doing what exactly? Being his first turn taxi? Enjoying the inability to ORKO?

Seriously, RFoF. Jewelry. Cordelia could order pizza for the rest of her life.

Except they're not worse than Fred by the time you hit the game's halfway point. You are putting all your eggs in the Fred basket here, but did you know Fred doesn't have to support Sumia? If it's Spd he wants, he can get that in various amounts from Avatar, Chrom, Sully, Panne, and Cordelia. Three of those come before Sumia and all are above her on the list...or will be once Cordelia > Sumia happens.

Last I checked, none of these people gave Fred wings, and you know well enough that a tier position can be argued. As for all my eggs in one basket, I haven't really noticed him being "an exp hog", which I thought we killed that argument years ago. The people who should be promoted are promoted, the people who want to class change are class changed....I fail to see your problem, other than you haven't really tried this yourself.

Your entire Sumia > Cordelia argument relies on Fred, but he will 1) not always be in play, at least for so long, and 2) sometimes just plain be supporting someone else. She's arguably not involved in any of the best pairings for the men (or women, even) available to her and her limited support list makes this a serious problem compared to Cordelia, who can basically just be dropped on any team and likely get a marriage partner, having better stats and giving them the same boosts to boot by the time we fight Gangrel (if her partner is there when she shows up). Sumia's defense lies completely in her availability, but she's mediocre before she gets a running support and Cordelia, despite also having a mediocre start, will catch up and pass her in as much time as it takes Sumia to get anywhere, or less.

Name me one character aside from Chrom, Fred and Avatar that isn't mediocre on arrival. A good portion of them have a shitty 6 speed base, Miriel doesn't know what damage is, Kellam is 100% support dependent, and Sully is generally below average until she gets a support that lets her double (something that requires like a C form Chrom who has 10 speed, and then she has a speed level on top of it). Sumia of all the starting characters is lucky she has someone that can just flat out fix the problems she starts with, while simultaniously being perfect for him as well.

You're putting a big restraint on the player for this since if Sumia doesn't have Fred, your whole argument basically implodes. Unless you want to make a case for Sumia x Gaius.

Give me one good reason Fred doesn't want Sumia McActualSpeedwings 100% of the time. Besides, I could make a case for Chrom as well if we really hate Frederick for no reason, namely flying Falchion is great for at least 3 chapters I can think of (Ricken's, Cordelia's, and Chapter 9), having a dual attack+ Rapier and Falchion basically gives Sumia free cheap Slayer effect on her attacks...Only thing it doesn't really give her is defense, which sucks. It does give Chrom wings though, since for the most part, Chrom doesn't really suffer in any stat save Res (Sumia boosts it, but it doesn't really matter since Chrom can't counter magic at range anyways)

Two fighting units in a pair is preferable to one. Plus if Fred is relegated to support bot, this really becomes a problem when Sumia's Str isn't enough to kill enemies and Fred's attacks miss or do minimal damage.

You do realize that Fred givs her 8 move and allows her to ORKO enemies on arrival, right? I will concede that one cannot exist without the other, but you cannot argue that it is in the player's best interest to connect them together. With eachother, neither is going to reduce the other to a support bot. Try it yourself, I think you'll be surprised. Chapter 13 with Fred at 10 and Sumia at 20/1, I could have 1 turned it with her if I wanted. Even if I wanted to go "brisk", I could just fly Fred over to the left side and Hand Axe everything in a single turn (aside from the sniper, which can be taken care of the following player phase). Left it nearly level 12. I could probably have Dual Guard+ by the time I'm done recruiting the kids. Then from there I could probably turn him into a Paladin or a Gryphon Rider if I'm that strapped for speed, or I could go more supportive with giving Sumia more Atk and Def with something like Wyvern Lord.

As for the issue of missing, Fred doing minimal damage is never going to happen considering Strength is one of his stronger suits, and neither will missing as he is probably the only character in the game that can get away with all A ranks (again, speaking of damage, he's always going t be packing Silver in all weapons).

Did you know that this ability is not exclusive to Sumia?

Oh sure, lemme just check his support list. Let's see, the others that can give him this kind of speed are Chrom who's got chicks to bang, and Cordelia who doesn't exist, and by the time she does gives inferior bonuses until like 8 chapters later.

So actually in a way, it is.

One Silver Lance. If it wasn't plainly obvious, I was looking for a bit more than that. How long do you actually think it takes Cordelia to reach B Lances? Drop this line, honestly, it's pointless.

I dunno, but during those chapters, Sumia could easily be using it.

You tried to sweep the obvious advantage under the rug like it doesn't exist while simultaneously trying to turn the exact same concept into an advantage for Sumia that, quite frankly, actually doesn't exist.

The obvious advantage of having classes shittier than Great Knight and not having to throw weapon ranks away? Seriously, you said it yourself. Neither wanna reclass till 20/10, explain to me again how losing 2 moves, flight, and my weapon ranks is better than having a slight flaw that can be easily fixed the same way it's been fixed the entire game?

+1 GK move support with Deliverer, by the way

Edited March 26, 2013 by grandjackal

[Blademaster!]

So since Inui won't actually post any turncount numbers using Donnel, I decided to try and see how useful Donnel actually is, along with an attempt at looking at Tharja and Nowi, since the former has been brought up a lot and I honestly think Nowi might be able to go in A tier, but that remains to be seen. I will also mention some of my impressions on Fred, since he has also just been brought up and he's played an extremely useful roll in my run. I'm sorry that I don't have any stats atm to see if anyone has been blessed or screwed by the RNG. Then again, we aren't even sure about the growth rates on the website anyway so...

Turn count for Prologue through chapter 3:

Pro: 3

1: 3

2: 4

3: 5

From what I've seen in draft runs, these are either the same or one turn above what most people get for these chapters, so I assume this should hopefully still be in the range of brisk. For the most part, I've pretty much only been using Fred up to this point and he's been his typical awesome self.

Now we get to Donnel's paralogue. Before starting, I got a maxed attack Bronze Lance for Donnel since I wanted to try and get maximum use out of him and level him up ASAP. As far as doing his paralogue went, I had Sumia chip the archer near the starting point and Donnel+Fred finished him off. IIRC, a +3 Bronze Lance would have killed him as well. Doing this gave Donnel 40 exp. On the enemy phase, the Thief decided to attack Sumia (he couldn't kill donnel anyway) and then the following player phase, Donnel killed the Thief allowing him to level up. I tried to get some more kills in for Donnel after that, but ultimately it proved a bit detrimental to do so, and I ended up completing the Paralogue in 9 turns with Donnel at Level 2.

From here until Nowi showed up, my turn counts were as follows:

4: 4 (Didn't bring Donnel)

5: 6 (Brought Donnel, managed to get him to level 4)

p2: 8 (Brought Donnel, but couldn't get him any kills)

6: 6 (Brought Donnel, Managed to get him to level 5)

Decided to pair him up with Panne. Donnel has crap durability regardless, so pair up with Panne or Kellam are his best options. Panne lets him marry, so...

7: 3 (Brought Donnel, Managed to get him to level 6)

P3: 7 (Brought Donnel, Managed to get him to level 7)

All in all, Donnel was nothing but a pain to bring to all these chapters. There are much better units than him I could've brought, and he could pretty much never stand on the front lines. Fred was still awesome of course thanks to Sumia.

Now we reach chapter 8, where Nowi and Tharja join, so the following turn counts are from here to the end of early game (aka Chapter 11)

8: 6 (Brought Donnel, got him to level 8. Got Nowi to level 5. Donnel reached D lances here.)

9: 5 (Brought Donnel and Nowi. Could've finished in 4 if I decided to kill Tharja or gave Libra rescue, but I'm trying to ignore rescue for the moment. Donnel Stayed at level 8. Nowi got to level 6. Should note I gave both of them a speed, def and str tonic).

p4: 6 (Brought Donnel and Nowi. Didn't bring Tharja. Donnel got to level 9, Nowi got to level 10. Boosted them both again, as before.)

10: 4 (Brought Donnel, Nowi, and Tharja. By this point, Nowi's dragon stone uses reached 21, so I tried to focus on training Gregor more. Donnel reached level 10 and I second sealed him to Mercenary. Nowi stayed at level 10. Tharja reached level 11. Only boosted Donnel and Gregor).

11: 5 (Brought Donnel, Nowi, and Tharja. Donnel reached lvl 2, Nowi reached Level 15, and Tharja reached level 12).

Nowi is no where near as difficult to use as Donnel, and can actually one round (with dual attack) and take hits on her starting chapter. In Chapter 8, Nowi should focus on the enemies by the master seal village. She has a 20% chance of killing the dark mage closest to her thanks to Gregor, and if she fails she kills him next turn. She can survive about 3 attacks from mages and the cavalier closest to her, so with proper strategy, she can easily gain 2 levels. I will say that it is possibly somewhat crucial she either gets +1 def or +1 res from her first level up, and that you can very likely save a turn not getting her to level 5. What's most important to note about Nowi is that she gains 47 exp per kill at level 3 and pretty much has a guaranteed C support with Gregor. On chapter 9, I just did my best to feed both of them kills while Fred, Sumia, Cordelia, and Chrom killed everything else. Paralogue 4 is what really allows Nowi to get going as a unit and deal some damage. She can essentially handle the right side of the map herself. With a speed tonic, it is possible that she can already double some enemy mages, and has a decent chance of OHKOing them with Gregor. She can also get in range of Archers from the other side of the wall, and has fairly decent durability, even without the Seraph robe. She should reach B support with Gregor at the end of this chapter. Since she was still gaining 40+ exp per kill, I managed to get her to level 10 by the end very easily. For chapter 10, I couldn't do much with her since her Dragon stone was running low, but on Chapter 11, she once again proved extremely useful. By using ward on the first turn and dancing her down far enough, she can solo the mage side of the map effortlessly while taking 0~2 damage from them depending on whether they have Mag+2 or not. She also deals about 20 damage to Gangrel, and it's highly recommended she either gets the kill or can get the dragon stone traded to her when he dies since she has a chance of running out of dragon stone uses.

As far as Tharja goes, at base I was able to have her, when paired with Kellam, get some kills on chapter 10. I didn't try using her the same way I did Nowi, but the main concern I have about her is whether she can get started as fast as Nowi with the same effort. Main thing I see between them right now is that Tharja will ultimately be more costly (100 uses of Nosferatu > 100 uses of dragon stone), having less set in stone requirements (Nowi needs Gregor to be good), and may not be able to kill mages as well at the beginning in exchange for possibly being easier to train. I'll have to try again giving Tharja the same benefits I did Nowi and see how that turns out.

Donnel ultimately could only do what Inui has suggested so far: Poke things and hope for kills. He provides absolutely no positive use to being brought, and is a negative for being used at all. Also, promoting him to Mercenary is definitely a mistake. Dropping an arms scroll and having access to hand axes and hammers is much more useful than armsthrift and and being stuck with E rank swords.

Fred, needless to say, is amazing the whole way through.

As far as early game goes, I would say Nowi >= Tharja >>>>>> Donnel. Tharja may definitely be better than Nowi, but I'd have to try again and see.

As far as mid game goes (AKA the Valm arc, chapters 12-20, Morgan, Owain, Kjelle, Laurent, Cynthia, Brady, Severa, Tiki, and Yarne's paralogue's I'd imagine) I've only done chapters 12-15 and paralogue 8 (aka Kjelle's chapter) so far, so I will note my opinions on how far I've gotten.

Turn counts and levels:

12: 4 (Brought Donnel, Nowi, and Tharja. Donnel reached Level 3, Nowi reached level 20, Tharja reached level 13. Only gave Nowi speed, str, and def tonic).

13: 2 (Donnel reached level 4, Nowi stayed at level 20, Tharja stayed at level 13. No tonics.)

14: 1 (All stayed the same level. No tonics.)

15: 5 (Donnel stayed at level 4, Nowi reached level 26, Tharja reached Level 15 and I promoted her to Sorcerer. Str tonic for Nowi.).

p8(Kjelle): 7 (Donnel reached Level 5, Nowi reached level 28, Tharja reached lvl 4 sorcerer).

Nowi is a tank for chapters 12, 15, and p8. At 12, she should have reached A support with Gregor right now, doubles everything that isn't promoted, takes barely any damage at all (only the silver weapon paladins deal over 5 damage to her) and doesn't have to worry about any kind of weapon weakness either. The only enemies she has some trouble dealing with are promoted units (since she can't ORKO them without a crit) and armors which she needs Gregor to help her kill. However, she'll gain levels so fast that she'll quickly overcome that weakness, and may even be able to double the enemy paladins and boss with a speed tonic. Chapter 13 involved no rescue, so I had Nowi and Fred rush the boss on turn 2. Nowi could double the boss without a tonic. She married Gregor at the end of chapter 13. None of them helped on chapter 14 at all since that's just fliers going to kill the boss. I could've had Nowi tank the left ship giving her more levels (along with everyone else) and finish in 2 turns, but I just decided to end it on turn 1. Chapter 15 had Nowi essentially solo (Fred took care of some left over armors) the upper deck of the map, and the main thing that hurt my turn count here was not being able to handle the beach enemies very well as a result of Donnel's crap move, lock to E rank swords, and no 2 range. Kjelle's paralogue is a mess. You get a lot of enemy reinforcements from turn 2-5, and on turn 5 you get a ton of generals and sorcerers with 2 range weapons thrown at you. It's kind of difficult to take care of all that and still reach the boss without letting Kjelle die if she isn't strong enough.

From these chapters here, Nowi was like a second Fred (only slower and with 1 less move) Tharja was still usable and provided some very helpful backup in Paralogue 8 (even without Nostanking thanks to her high def and Kellam support), and Donnel still proved to be nothing but a negative with less durability than both of them, especially in terms of his res. From here, Nowi > Tharja >>>>>>> Donnel still, but I'm maybe halfway through the game right now, so I'll just have to wait and see what turns out. At this point in time, Fred is still useful as well and has continued to be nothing but a huge boon thanks to Sumia, though he may start to slow down soon. I'll probably promote her to dark flier and let her use tomes since enemies don't seem to have good res in this game.

[Florete]

God damn it why am I still doing this.

You brought up Ricken and Henry like they meant something to her, you can't seriously be thinking they actually make good supports. Ya know, I've been conceding Kellam at every turn, and you just try to bring up supports that blow for some amusing reason. My point merely is that her supposed long list of suitors doesn't mean jack if they aren't effective, and a good majority of the time that is the case. Why would I want to use supports that hardly give either her or her partner something substantial? It's why I keep bringing up Kellam, he gives her things she actually wants

I mentioned them on the side as a potential reason for her to go Dark Flier. I didn't say "Cordelia's supports are awesome because look what she can do with Henry and Ricken."

Then you tried to make a point that they never double and I completely shot that down. Really, it's your fault we're on this line and yet you still can't keep it up.

Kellam is cool.

Meanwhile, Cordelia has been doing what exactly? Being his first turn taxi? Enjoying the inability to ORKO?

Clearly you did not connect the dots.

Last I checked, none of these people gave Fred wings, and you know well enough that a tier position can be argued. As for all my eggs in one basket, I haven't really noticed him being "an exp hog", which I thought we killed that argument years ago. The people who should be promoted are promoted, the people who want to class change are class changed....I fail to see your problem, other than you haven't really tried this yourself.

Giving Fred (or anyone) wings is actually not that special due to how Pair Up works. It's useful on a few maps, like the desert (which holy hell Cordelia is around for), but there aren't too many instances where one really craves it and it can cause more problems than it's worth at times. It's mostly good for the first turn to get the pair somewhere on relevant maps, but Cordelia can do the same thing.

Exp hog? When did I mention anything akin to that?

Name me one character aside from Chrom, Fred and Avatar that isn't mediocre on arrival. A good portion of them have a shitty 6 speed base, Miriel doesn't know what damage is, Kellam is 100% support dependent, and Sully is generally below average until she gets a support that lets her double (something that requires like a C form Chrom who has 10 speed, and then she has a speed level on top of it).

What is the point of this?

Give me one good reason Fred doesn't want Sumia McActualSpeedwings 100% of the time. Besides, I could make a case for Chrom as well if we really hate Frederick for no reason, namely flying Falchion is great for at least 3 chapters I can think of (Ricken's, Cordelia's, and Chapter 9), having a dual attack+ Rapier and Falchion basically gives Sumia free cheap Slayer effect on her attacks...Only thing it doesn't really give her is defense, which sucks. It does give Chrom wings though, since for the most part, Chrom doesn't really suffer in any stat save Res (Sumia boosts it, but it doesn't really matter since Chrom can't counter magic at range anyways)

Flying is only good for Cordelia's if the one doing the actual flying is fighting since you can't switch in the sky with a foot unit. Since that's not happening with Sumia, you're better off just luring them in.

Why does Fred want Sumia so badly? Flight is not that special in this game and he can get similar stat boosts from multiple other partners.

What if Fred isn't being used past the game's halfway point?

Are you really not seeing how your entire argument is completely reliant on Fred? And how that's a bad thing?

but you cannot argue that it is in the player's best interest to connect them together.

Oh, I didn't realize you had already given up.

As for the issue of missing, Fred doing minimal damage is never going to happen considering Strength is one of his stronger suits, and neither will missing as he is probably the only character in the game that can get away with all A ranks (again, speaking of damage, he's always going t be packing Silver in all weapons).

If he becomes relegated to support bot, this will happen when his level falls behind enough.

Oh sure, lemme just check his support list. Let's see, the others that can give him this kind of speed are Chrom

And Cordelia. And while they give him a point or two less, Avatar and Sully and Panne. Like I mentioned before.

The obvious advantage of having classes shittier than Great Knight and not having to throw weapon ranks away? Seriously, you said it yourself. Neither wanna reclass till 20/10, explain to me again how losing 2 moves, flight, and my weapon ranks is better than having a slight flaw that can be easily fixed the same way it's been fixed the entire game?

...

This is getting tiresome. Please, someone else pitch in on this matter. I can't handle it anymore.

[Interceptor]

So since **** won't actually post any turncount numbers using Donnel, I decided to try and see how useful Donnel actually is, along with an attempt at looking at Tharja and Nowi, since the former has been brought up a lot and I honestly think Nowi might be able to go in A tier, but that remains to be seen. I will also mention some of my impressions on Fred, since he has also just been brought up and he's played an extremely useful roll in my run. I'm sorry that I don't have any stats atm to see if anyone has been blessed or screwed by the RNG. Then again, we aren't even sure about the growth rates on the website anyway so...

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Blademaster; this kind of data is hugely useful for the tiering process. I was going to do something similar for Nowi in HM, but I think it's superfluous now, so I may do a Hard run with another set of units.

Nowi does seem like a lock for A tier ultimately; she is already basically Nosferatanking without actually using Nosferatu, and with a better hard target (Generals rather than high-RES mages and clerics). Her final tier position seems like it will be related to Gregor's spot. Nowi effectively removes him from the army as a potential combatant, since he is far and away her best Pair Up partner, so that may be a negative if he happens to be a strong unit in his own right that's difficult to replace.

What did you do with your Second Seals? I notice that Nowi is almost level-capped as a Manakete.

God damn it why am I still doing this. [...] This is getting tiresome. Please, someone else pitch in on this matter. I can't handle it anymore.

You're a clever fox, RFoF, but fell for one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia", but only slightly less known is "never engage Grandjackal in a point-by-point rebuttal". He will never tire, no detail is too small to hype, and he has an endless supply of tangential arguments. Quote blocks will blacken out the sun before you even realize what is going on.

The case for Cordelia > Sumia is very straightforward:

1. Cordelia is a better long-term combatant, due to superior stats. This is not really arguable.
   
2. Sumia has inferior support options, since Cordelia trades Chrom for literally nine alternatives. Since SumiaxChrom gives us a weaker Lucina than Avatar's, and is no better than Sully's, having Chrom is not really an advantage. Some of Cordelia's options are pretty strong, and most importantly they are FLEXIBLE.
   
3. Cordy's army get 70-80% of Sumia's early game in the Ch3+ game by simply using Sumia as a Pair Up and ferry bot, to be retired once Cordy gets going. This is the double-edged sword of Sumia being so useful as a Support unit: it allows us to not have to train her, and instead give the EXP to a better long-term unit, which is something that Cordelia actually benefits from.
   
4. Sumia's reclass options are strictly inferior, for whatever this is worth (not much, but it is worth mentioning for tiebreakers).
   
5. Cordy starts with C Lances, which is instant Killer access. She'll have Silver in a mere 25 combats. Considering her base STR, support options, forges, and tonics, this will not inhibit her offensive prowess. Never mind that base Sumia is 45 combats from B Lances, which involves taking a lot of combat from other people in order to reach prior to Cordelia (and Sumia needs it more).
   

Fin. We don't need to get into Henry shenanigans, here. It's possible to concede that Sumia has the better earlygame than Cordelia (existing, giving higher Pair Up bonuses while supports build) without that meaning that Sumia is a better overall unit.

[Legault!]

I know you have this unavoidable urge to say dumb things in this thread because you have a boner for hot mage girls with a ~grimdark~ streak, but can it wait for the actually constructive debate about pegasus placement to conclude?

This is very mature.

Do we really need to call users out by name? Is it necessary to insult Inui? grandjackal? Both seem like reasonable posters with their own posting styles, and even with strong disagreement, the sheer amount of ivory tower pretention pervading this topic makes me gag.

Back on-topic, I'm curious about this "Nowi is cheaper than Tharja" point. I believe dragonstones (even basic ones) are expensive and can be sold for cash, which needs to be considered.

[grandjackal]

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Blademaster; this kind of data is hugely useful for the tiering process. I was going to do something similar for Nowi in HM, but I think it's superfluous now, so I may do a Hard run with another set of units.

Nowi does seem like a lock for A tier ultimately; she is already basically Nosferatanking without actually using Nosferatu, and with a better hard target (Generals rather than high-RES mages and clerics). Her final tier position seems like it will be related to Gregor's spot. Nowi effectively removes him from the army as a potential combatant, since he is far and away her best Pair Up partner, so that may be a negative if he happens to be a strong unit in his own right that's difficult to replace.

In fairness, being seems to be Gregor's strong suit even though he's a capable combat unit. I've paired the dude up with Tharja and was happy with the results, even though they technically do very little for one another. I'd imagine he's a support that could work for just about anyone. Was also fun having a Noire with Lifetaker and Sol. The sustain is too stronk

The case for Cordelia > Sumia is very straightforward:

1. Cordelia is a better long-term combatant, due to superior stats. This is not really arguable.
   
2. Sumia has inferior support options, since Cordelia trades Chrom for literally nine alternatives. Since SumiaxChrom gives us a weaker Lucina than Avatar's, and is no better than Sully's, having Chrom is not really an advantage. Some of Cordelia's options are pretty strong, and most importantly they are FLEXIBLE.
   
3. Cordy's army get 70-80% of Sumia's early game in the Ch3+ game by simply using Sumia as a Pair Up and ferry bot, to be retired once Cordy gets going. This is the double-edged sword of Sumia being so useful as a Support unit: it allows us to not have to train her, and instead give the EXP to a better long-term unit, which is something that Cordelia actually benefits from.
   
4. Sumia's reclass options are strictly inferior, for whatever this is worth (not much, but it is worth mentioning for tiebreakers).
   
5. Cordy starts with C Lances, which is instant Killer access. She'll have Silver in a mere 25 combats. Considering her base STR, support options, forges, and tonics, this will not inhibit her offensive prowess. Never mind that base Sumia is 45 combats from B Lances, which involves taking a lot of combat from other people in order to reach prior to Cordelia (and Sumia needs it more).
   

Fin. We don't need to get into Henry shenanigans, here. It's possible to concede that Sumia has the better earlygame than Cordelia (existing, giving higher Pair Up bonuses while supports build) without that meaning that Sumia is a better overall unit.

The reason this works for me (though I still feel Sumia is better if only due to what I just personally believe to be a ridiculously strong support while Cordelia can still have a strong one in Kellam, so Sumia is just the same for longer but Cord gets her edges later) is cause there is no room or me to get sidetracked, something admittedly that happens easy to me. Was wondering why Henry and Ricken were even brought up in the first place, but I figured since it was part of the argument that it was an arguing point.

So yeah, sorry if I set your head on fire, Red. I still disagree with you, but sorry.

EDIT: Legault, consider that Dragonstones are a 50 use weapon as opposed to a Nosferatu's 20. 2300 vs 980 as a price, but per use, Nosferatu pound for pound is actually more expensive (exact pricing: 2470 for 50 uses).

Edited March 26, 2013 by grandjackal

[OrangeCrush980]

We can talk about Tharja later. Because she's the hero this tier list deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So, we'll postpone discussion about her, because she can take it. Because she's not our hero. She's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight.

[PKL]

Cordelia being unable to ORKO...I wonder if grandjackal has even tried pairing her with Frederick? Considering she actually does ORKO a lot of enemies with a fred pair up from the get-go, plus theres tonics and stuff. I would know, considering I use her all my playthroughs and Ive never had this issue of not ORKO'ing. Oh and there's a paralogue right after she joins where shes very useful at base. Being able to ORKO the archer on the left side with a fred pair up in the first turn and the barb with steel lance + countering the pegs. She's certainly not going to have issues getting exp there before the desert.

[Legault!]

EDIT: Legault, consider that Dragonstones are a 50 use weapon as opposed to a Nosferatu's 20. 2300 vs 980 as a price, but per use, Nosferatu pound for pound is actually more expensive (exact pricing: 2470 for 50 uses).

Thanks, I don't have the game on me so I couldn't verify.

[grandjackal]

Cordelia being unable to ORKO...I wonder if grandjackal has even tried pairing her with Frederick? Considering she actually does ORKO a lot of enemies with a fred pair up from the get-go, plus theres tonics and stuff. I would know, considering I use her all my playthroughs and Ive never had this issue of not ORKO'ing. Oh and there's a paralogue right after she joins where shes very useful at base. Being able to ORKO the archer on the left side with a fred pair up in the first turn and the barb with steel lance + countering the pegs. She's certainly not going to have issues getting exp there before the desert.

I eventually conceded Kellam, who gets the job done well enough, but it doesn't change my thoughts on finding Sumia's earlygame holding more magnitude. Others are free to disagree on that though.

...Seriously though, do you just read like one post then throw your thoughts? Cause we've already finished and fleshed out the points, and you bring up Fred with Cord again like I hadn't heard it before from several others. This isn't the first time you've done it, it's like you're suffering reality lag. I know I'm being a little rude, but it's just been bugging me.

[PKL]

I eventually conceded Kellam, who gets the job done well enough, but it doesn't change my thoughts on finding Sumia's earlygame holding more magnitude. Others are free to disagree on that though.

...Seriously though, do you just read like one post then throw your thoughts? Cause we've already finished and fleshed out the points, and you bring up Fred with Cord again like I hadn't heard it before from several others. This isn't the first time you've done it, it's like you're suffering reality lag. I know I'm being a little rude, but it's just been bugging me.

I didn't read all of the posts. So yes, I only read one post and then threw my thoughts.

Too lazy, wouldnt read everything ever.

Edited March 26, 2013 by CordeliaxFrederick

[Legault!]

...You really should read all of the posts before commenting. I know there's a lot of bullshit to wade through, but still.

[Inui]

...much more useful than armsthrift...

lol, no

this is just

i can't

lmao

[Blademaster!]

What did you do with your Second Seals? I notice that Nowi is almost level-capped as a Manakete.

I used one on Donnel, and then another on Fred to make him a Griffon Rider. I don't think I've used any other ones yet, but I plan on making Nowi a Wyvern rider for the extra leveling speed and Tanvity, Chrom to become a Cavalier (he's been majorly RNG screwed this run), and maybe have Sumia become a Knight. I'm able to complete chapter 16, so I'll be able to buy second seals soon. IIRC you can get four before chapter 16: One from Renown awards, one from a village in chapter 8, 1 from a Bow Knight in chapter 12, and the last from a village in chapter 15.

lol, no

this is just

i can't

lmao

Maybe if you were good at the game you'd realize how bad Mercenary is for Donnel in no grind

[Legault!]

Maybe if you were good at the game you'd realize how bad Mercenary is for Donnel in no grind

Armsthrift is really poor, but Sol is amazing and Donnel's Mercenary growths are superb. This is a bad post.