FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Interceptor]

Do we really need to call users out by name? Is it necessary to insult ****? grandjackal? Both seem like reasonable posters with their own posting styles, and even with strong disagreement, the sheer amount of ivory tower pretention pervading this topic makes me gag.

Grandjackal is a bro, I am not insulting him. He gets a little passionate and sometimes chases the rabbit down the hole a little bit too far, but he makes good points when he stays on the train tracks, and sometimes when he doesn't.

Back on-topic, I'm curious about this "Nowi is cheaper than Tharja" point. I believe dragonstones (even basic ones) are expensive and can be sold for cash, which needs to be considered.

As pointed out, I think that the Stones are no worse than Nosferatu (and possibly better per kill in the case of Nowi, who has a lot of OHKO Adepts), but money is a factor, so ultimately this may be a drag on her placement much like Gregor.

In fairness, being seems to be Gregor's strong suit even though he's a capable combat unit. I've paired the dude up with Tharja and was happy with the results, even though they technically do very little for one another. I'd imagine he's a support that could work for just about anyone. Was also fun having a Noire with Lifetaker and Sol. The sustain is too stronk

I'd agree that Gregor is a good father to anyone who wants Sol, and this could also include Nah, but children is getting pretty far afield.

I used one on Donnel, and then another on Fred to make him a Griffon Rider. I don't think I've used any other ones yet, but I plan on making Nowi a Wyvern rider for the extra leveling speed and Tanvity, Chrom to become a Cavalier (he's been majorly RNG screwed this run), and maybe have Sumia become a Knight. I'm able to complete chapter 16, so I'll be able to buy second seals soon. IIRC you can get four before chapter 16: One from Renown awards, one from a village in chapter 8, 1 from a Bow Knight in chapter 12, and the last from a village in chapter 15.

Does Nowi really want Wyvern Rider? Her Manakete caps are good enough for Endgame, so you'd get the same leveling speed by just re-classing and giving up on Tantivity. I just wonder if it's worth putting up with E Axes for extra Avoid on someone who is a DEF/RES tank to begin with.

Maybe if you were good at the game you'd realize how bad Mercenary is for Donnel in no grind

Seems like you really put this argument to bed for now, pending someone proving otherwise with their own run.

[Constable Reggie]

You asked how I feed him experience. I answered. Why are you still going on?

Wow, I didn't think you were thinking so simple mindedly

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Does Nowi really want Wyvern Rider? Her Manakete caps are good enough for Endgame, so you'd get the same leveling speed by just re-classing and giving up on Tantivity. I just wonder if it's worth putting up with E Axes for extra Avoid on someone who is a DEF/RES tank to begin with.

The thing is that since Manakete is a class that doesn't actually have weapon ranks, you can go Wyvern early for their ridiculously good skills, and then later in the game once you have Quick Burn or Deliverer (the later is really nice since Manakete is 6 movement), you've gotten some levels under your belt, and then can go back to Manakete once you've got those awesome skills.

By the time you want to return to Manakete, Second Seals are going to be buyable. Additionally, Manakete is an "unpromoted" class, so you don't have to wait for xx/10 to reclass to it.

[Interceptor]

My issue with that is that you are giving up right-now usefulness for skills that Nowi may not even want in the first place. As soon as she becomes a Rider, she gains bow/wind weakness, loses her 1-2 range, and gives up a big pile of DEF/RES from losing her stone and only using Rider bases.

Is that bad performance worth putting up with for skills? In terms of Tantivity and Quick Burn I would say no. She is a DEF/RES tank, not an avoid tank, and she doesn't have any HIT issues either. In terms of Deliverer or STR +2, maybe, but she actually has to get there in a reasonable amount of time first.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Interceptor

[Inui]

Maybe if you were good at the game you'd realize how bad Mercenary is for Donnel in no grind

Oh please, this game, especially on "hard" mode (which is more like normal mode of FE6 or something) is super easy and we can all rape it brutally while blindfolded using a random assortment of units pulled from a hat. Debating this game is just horrible because of how subjective it is, no rankings, DLC/map/etc. forcing us to make up "rules" and tons of other BS... It's worse than having to make rules for Melee and Brawl. I started a ranked FE7 run yesterday and a low-turn run of FE9 a few days ago because this game is just awful besides supporting cool characters and reading stuff between them. The standards in this thread for the tier list are inconsistent and subjective.

Back to FE's 4/5/6/7 for debate and playing I go~

Edit: Maybe debating Lunatic wouldn't be horrible, but it seems like people here consider that difficulty setting too "hard" even though you have cheat codes named Frederick and Avatar.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Inui

[Lord Raven]

I think going Manakete -> Promoted Class would be a better idea than Manakete -> Wyvern Rider. Now the question is, what's better for the short term? Slow Burn, Quick Burn, and Magic Cry?

[Shadow Mir]

I think going Manakete -> Promoted Class would be a better idea than Manakete -> Wyvern Rider. Now the question is, what's better for the short term? Slow Burn, Quick Burn, and Magic Cry?

I dunno too much about Nowi, but would it really be worth reclassing her?

Edited March 26, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Elieson]

For the short term? quick Burn. Most chapters end in less than 5 turns on Hard mode anyway.

[Inui]

I'm sure Nowi likes +2 Str from base Wyvern more than avoid boosting skills (who cares about avoid on her, could be 0 and it wouldn't matter in hard mode).

[Seven Deadly Sins]

We get it, you don't like talking about this game. In that case, do us all a favor and stop. Otherwise, contribute without being a snippy jerk.

e: So that I'm contributing...

It's a -4 def and -1 Str difference between Manakete and Wyvern (as well as -4 damage on the weapon), but +2 Speed, more movement, and flight. I think the main reason to reclass is the +2 Move from Deliverer, since 6 move is still just 6 move. You refer to reclassing into a promoted class, but is it possible to do so from a non-promoting class? Does it work at level 20 or something? I will agree that reclassing Nowi is a significant performance hit in the short term, but it pays off with Deliverer when you get that far, and flight, while iffy in this game, is still useful.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Redwall]

You refer to reclassing into a promoted class, but is it possible to do so from a non-promoting class? Does it work at level 20 or something?

For special classes like Manakete and Dancer, you can Second Seal directly into a promoted class at Level 30.

[Interceptor]

Maybe debating Lunatic wouldn't be horrible [...]

My fear about Lunatic is that it would just be a subset of the Hard mode list, since borderline units here become garbage units there (like Donnel). At least in Hard mode, everyone can be a contributor.

If you don't like discussing the game, or reading/following guidelines... then don't participate. There's no need to urinate in everyone else's Cheerios.

I dunno too much about Nowi, but would it really be worth reclassing her?

That is basically my point. Manakete is her best class, period. Why would you reclass in the first place? There's no denying that giving her a standard class for skill acquisition will result in a drop in immediate effectiveness, because everything is inferior to her base. So the only argument that would fly, is if the positive of picking up those skills outweighs the negatives of the training time, for either her situation personally or the army's in general.

[Blademaster!]

Armsthrift is really poor, but Sol is amazing and Donnel's Mercenary growths are superb. This is a bad post.

These are Donnel's stats on Average:

Lvl 10 Villager

~25.45 Hp

~10.75 str

~8.75 skl

~9.30 spd

20 lck

~8.85 def

~3.60 res

Lvl 1 Merc

~27.45 Hp

~14.75 str

~15.75 skl

~15.30 spd

20 lck

~12.85 def

~3.60 res

Lvl 1 Fighter

~34.45 Hp

~17.75 str

~12.75 skl

~13.30 spd

20 lck

~11.85 def

~3.60 res

13 base speed with a good pair up and a speed tonic is enough for Donnel to still double most enemies for awhile, and he is stronger and more durable as a fighter thanks to Hp+5. As far as growths go, he trades +5% str for -5% skl and spd, and all of them are still over 80% regardless. Additionally, we can give Donnel an Arms scroll giving him access to D rank axes, letting him use hand axes and hammers. As a Mercenary, dumping an arms scroll on Donnel isn't as useful. The only D rank swords we are likely to get are the Wyrmslayer and Iron Sword. Since Donnel does have Armsthrift, the Wyrmslayer makes for a nice subpar steel sword, but as far as the midgame chapters I've done go, there aren't many wyverns (Morgan and Owain's(can't do it since I didn't pair Lissa...) have some, but Kjelle, Laurent(can't do it since I didn't pair Miriel...), chp 12-16 I'm pretty sure don't. Don't recall the others) so the effective bonus isn't super great. Conversely, the hand axe gives 1-2 range and the hammer is arguably one of the best and most useful weapons in the game. Also, class changing to Fighter doesn't mean he can't get Sol since Fighters can also promote to Hero.

To be perfectly honest, although I am mostly talking about how bad Donnel's early game and early mid game is (as a Merc, which I argue is his worse class option) his late midgame and late game are still yet to be seen, and by then he is definitely going to be a beast. Most other units can't really compare with his stats there, and if I had made him a fighter and gave him an arms scroll, he'd be on his way to being a better version of Vaike by now. The most important thing to remember though is that, although difficult, Donnel certainly isn't impossible to train, and his good remaining portion of the game may still outclass other units in some ways that they can't compare with him. Regardless, Donnel should only reach the very bottom of B tier in a best case scenario.

As for making Nowi a wyvern rider, it is all experimental, so I will see how it goes. The main idea behind making her a wyvern rider is because Chapter 16 and up enters the "Kill the boss ASAP" phase of the game, so the extra move and flying utility may prove more useful since there is less of a focus on tanking tons of enemies at once. From my lunatic run, this was a bad idea, but in hard mode, maybe not so much. Griffon Rider->Wyvern Rider->Wyvern Lord->Manakete may be a better idea though. Also, Nowi's avoid is actually pretty decent as a Manakete thanks to her high luck and decent speed.

[Florete]

You're a clever fox, RFoF, but fell for one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia", but only slightly less known is "never engage Grandjackal in a point-by-point rebuttal". He will never tire, no detail is too small to hype, and he has an endless supply of tangential arguments. Quote blocks will blacken out the sun before you even realize what is going on.

I knew of this possibility going in, but I still fell in the hole. Shame on me, and thank you, Interceptor.

Henry x Cordelia foreva!

lol, no

this is just

i can't

lmao

Try to make sure your posts are at least more constructive than this.

[Legault!]

I started a ranked FE7 run yesterday and a low-turn run of FE9 a few days ago because this game is just awful besides supporting cool characters and reading stuff between them. The standards in this thread for the tier list are inconsistent and subjective.

This is very true. Awakening, in addition to being a very bad game, is also a game that is very difficult to argue about (even "subjective") given its wide range of options and lack of any kind of ranking system. I still don't understand why "grey area" is considered acceptable in a list like this. Concrete standards are a must.

Regarding a possible Lunatic list, it would end up making certain characters extremely good and most others extremely bad. Rather boring.

[Elieson]

Why reclass a Manakete? Because last I checked, that Dragonstone was in a limitted supply.

[Shadow Mir]

Why reclass a Manakete? Because last I checked, that Dragonstone was in a limitted supply.

Actually, you get another from chapter 11's boss, and they're buyable after chapter 12.

[Elieson]

Yea, I guess she isn't running out of her 50 by Gangrel on Hard (mindset is Lunatic mode right now)

[MercuryHg34]

I can see a case for either option, but given the rules of this tier list I would say that not reclassing is Nowi's best option. I am currently playing a grinding playthrough so I had plenty of time to max out Manakete before switching class. Once I did her performance dropped significantly, and I find that she really doesn't need the extra movement since I tend to inch across the map and let the enemy come to me. I would imaging that Nowi ultimately ends up better by never reclassing.

Here's my short way of looking at it: Would you rather have a Nowi that is consistently awesome the entire game, or a considerably worse starting Nowi that only ends up slightly better in the long run?

[Interceptor]

This is very true. Awakening, in addition to being a very bad game, is also a game that is very difficult to argue about (even "subjective") given its wide range of options and lack of any kind of ranking system. I still don't understand why "grey area" is considered acceptable in a list like this. Concrete standards are a must.

I just have this mental picture of you standing in the middle of a salmon run, haughtily declaring that it's much too difficult to swim upriver, while fish are streaming right past you. Seems like we're able to get along just fine. Maybe it's you?

FWIW, ranking systems make tier lists awkward and silly, since they tend to value contradictory things when you play to meet all of the requirements (FE7 is a great example).

[Legault!]

I just have this mental picture of you standing in the middle of a salmon run, haughtily declaring that it's much too difficult to swim upriver, while fish are streaming right past you. Seems like we're able to get along just fine. Maybe it's you?

As Paperblade points out, you're "getting by fine" with vague standards because you're interpreting those standards to suit your own views. This is more a case of delusion than successful swimming.

FWIW, ranking systems make tier lists awkward and silly, since they tend to value contradictory things when you play to meet all of the requirements (FE7 is a great example).

Hardly. Competing (not contradictory) requirements make the game genuinely challenging, and various difficulties place clear emphasis on specific requirements (funds in Normal, experience in Hard, with Tactics underlying both). And because there are concrete standards, units that help one rank but hurt another can be adequately analyzed: does a promoted Dart save as many turns as a non-Dart team with an extra 25K in cash to spend?

[Shadow Mir]

Hardly. Competing (not contradictory) requirements make the game genuinely challenging, and various difficulties place clear emphasis on specific requirements (funds in Normal, experience in Hard, with Tactics underlying both). And because there are concrete standards, units that help one rank but hurt another can be adequately analyzed: does a promoted Dart save as many turns as a non-Dart team with an extra 25K in cash to spend?

Experience and Tactics scream contradictory to me - I'm expected to clear maps as quickly as possible whilst constantly rotating units so that I don't risk losing my Experience rank? It's stuff like that that makes me think ranked tier lists would be a load of bullcrap.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Inui]

At least the rankings systems are objective and concrete. This is all made up rules and subjectivity that don't actually apply when you play the game. Barracks, event tiles, and risen challenges don't exist? What if Virion gets a Glass Bow!? Earlygame one-shotting of Wyverns! Yeah boy! When you actually play the game, things are so much different from this tier list and the fictional rules made for it. Rankings can be measured objectively.

What's wrong with units not being able to contribute in Lunatic? That would be like...every other game in the series! Whoa! Half of the units in FE11 and FE12 are ultra bottom tier. So much easier to discuss and debate those games even though they're possibly the two worst in the series.

My "brisk pace" for Chapter X is 6 turns. Yours is 5. Mine lets Donnel become a god. Yours doesn't. Subjective.

Experience and Tactics scream contradictory to me - I'm expected to clear maps as quickly as possible whilst constantly rotating units so that I don't risk losing my Experience rank? It's stuff like that that makes me think ranked tier lists would be a load of bullcrap.

No, that stuff is awesome. Makes you actually think about who you're deploying instead of creating a team of 10 ultra gods that can't die and one-round all enemies.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Inui

[Interceptor]

As Paperblade points out, you're "getting by fine" with vague standards because you're interpreting those standards to suit your own views. This is more a case of delusion than successful swimming.

That's funny, because I see substantive discussions, the first of many test runs using the requirements, movement in the tiers based on arguments, etc. This isn't swimming, this is apparently delusion. Mass delusion, perhaps? What is the difference between mass delusion and mass agreement, in terms of results? You seem irritated that the tier list is accomplishing its goals, in spite of and in clear violation of your world view.

Hardly. Competing (not contradictory) requirements make the game genuinely challenging, and various difficulties place clear emphasis on specific requirements (funds in Normal, experience in Hard, with Tactics underlying both). And because there are concrete standards, units that help one rank but hurt another can be adequately analyzed: does a promoted Dart save as many turns as a non-Dart team with an extra 25K in cash to spend?

Unfortunately when you have requirements that are contradictory, with a hundred places to tweak the results, and no clear way to adjudicate conflicts in style, success generally means denying the underlying problems to begin with. The advantage of a turn-based tier list, is that while people may differ on interpretation, everyone is moving in the same direction.

But this is off topic for this particular list. You should make a thread for it in FE General for me to ignore.

[Florete]

At least the rankings systems are objective and concrete. This is all made up rules and subjectivity that don't actually apply when you play the game. Barracks, event tiles, and risen challenges don't exist? What if Virion gets a Glass Bow!? Earlygame one-shotting of Wyverns! Yeah boy! When you actually play the game, things are so much different from this tier list and the fictional rules made for it. Rankings can be measured objectively.

Barracks and event tiles aren't considered because they're too random. You could get a bunch of useless crap or amazing stuff or just experience and relation boosts. I've seen, like, one Glass Bow in all my time playing this game, and I was more than halfway through the game.

Risen aren't considered because that's just grinding and we don't grind unless you consider Paralogues grinding, which is an admittedly subjective subject to deal with. The Paralogues, I mean, Risen Skirmishes can easily be swept away.

No, that stuff is awesome. Makes you actually think about who you're deploying instead of creating a team of 10 ultra gods that can't die and one-round all enemies.

While I will agree that ranks deserve more credit than some people on SF like to give them, this isn't really the place to talk about them. Awakening simply doesn't have them, so they aren't relevant to the topic at hand.