FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Florete]

It's pretty implausible to say that all children will be recruited in a single run. There are 11 mothers + Avatar that need to be paired for a minimum of 22 regular units assuming Avatar marries one of the mothers, way too many units to use at once. I'd say 4-6 of them can be reasonably recruited in one run.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Legault!]

Kids are a problem for another day; it would be better to just leave them alone and fork the list if they are that difficult to deal with in terms of interactions with the parents. What would be the purpose of delaying Tiki's recruitment?

Considering children maps have a direct bearing on non-children unit performance, this is bad advice. You would delay Tiki's recruitment to do the children maps earlier, since you have to do Paralogues ASAP according to the parameters of this list.

It's pretty implausible to say that all children will be recruited in a single run. There are 11 mothers + Avatar that need to be paired for a minimum of 22 regular units assuming Avatar marries one of the mothers, way too many units to use at once. I'd say 4-6 of them can be reasonably recruited in one run.

At this point, why even bother? It causes too many problems. If you're going to limit yourself to just a few children, which children you use is going to depend in large part on which children Paralogues can be completed most quickly -- this is still a brisk pace list, after all.

[Florete]

Why even bother with what?

[Legault!]

Why even bother with what?

Getting children period (other than Lucina). Adds turns to your total, makes certain units' quality ambiguous.

[Interceptor]

Considering children maps have a direct bearing on non-children unit performance, this is bad advice. You would delay Tiki's recruitment to do the children maps earlier, since you have to do Paralogues ASAP according to the parameters of this list.

Considering that we're not limited by either keystrokes or imagination around here, there would be no issue with a separate list; the fact that the children aren't on the main parent list to begin with is an admission that this is a sticky problem. There are options, but in the meantime we can still discuss the parents without having to deal with the children, until the details get fleshed out. The point isn't the endgame, it's the discussion.

I am not catching what you are throwing WRT Tiki. The children paras can be delayed due to difficulty reasons, but she is not a child, and there's no gameplay reason to swing back later unless you mean to use it as a training map.

[Florete]

To tier them, I imagine. Gaidens and such in past FE games have always been considered, where reasonable (no FE7 19xx), to be done for the sake of tiers, so it should be the same here. Whichever ones we get access to we do as if they are part of the main game. And if we remove the children for that reason, might as well remove Donnel, Anna, and Tiki as well.

If we determine that we'll only do, let's say 5 children Paralogues per run, it will make it easier to determine how it effects the other units.

[Legault!]

but in the meantime we can still discuss the parents without having to deal with the children

"Considering children maps have a direct bearing on non-children unit performance, this is bad advice." -- Legault, three posts ago

I am not catching what you are throwing WRT Tiki. The children paras can be delayed due to difficulty reasons, but she is not a child, and there's no gameplay reason to swing back later unless you mean to use it as a training map.

Bold is right: children Paralogues affect unit performance because they are training grounds. More maps = more experience = units who are above her (all recruited earlier) are at higher levels with better stats by the time Tiki is recruited, not to mention they've made positive contributions during those Paralogues.

Whichever ones we get access to we do as if they are part of the main game. And if we remove the children for that reason, might as well remove Donnel, Anna, and Tiki as well.

Donnel, Anna, and Tiki are recruited in Paralogues that are not marriage-dependent to open up. I'd say that's a relevant difference. Either way, there needs to be a concrete consensus about how to handle children: either none, or a set number.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Legault!

[Interceptor]

The problem (and there is one, Legault just seems to have trouble articulating it) is that the child paralogues in this game have wide variations in difficulty and impact on a run's efficiency, both for unlocking and completion. If you say that only 4-5 children are recruited, nobody except Inigo's team is going to recruit Inigo. This has an impact on training and turncounts. It's like your 19xx problem, magnified by recruitment.

It's a solvable problem, but not within the constraints of the guidelines as they exist at the moment.

[Shadow Mir]

I wonder when we'll start the Lunatic list.

The OP stated that Lunatic was too constraining for a worthwhile tier list.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Legault!]

The problem (and there is one, Legault just seems to have trouble articulating it)

I'm articulating it just fine; you seem to have a problem understanding it. But I am a very patient man, so allow me to try again.

1. Children Paralogue maps provide training for units, which means that depending on how many are done before Tiki is recruited, her relative worth fluctuates.

2. If we agree on limiting Paralogues to a handful of children, the children with shorter maps will always be recruited over the ones with longer maps. This is roughly an LTC list.

Hopefully there are no more ambiguities.

[Interceptor]

You would delay Tiki's recruitment to do the children maps earlier, since you have to do Paralogues ASAP according to the parameters of this list.

You have no vehicle to delay Tiki's recruitment in this tier list. It's done as soon as her Paralogue is available, after Ch18. Maybe you meant "do the children maps earlier, with no bearing whatsoever on when we recruit Tiki, pinky-promise".

I'm articulating it just fine [...]

There's no need to be self-conscious about it; I don't mind being a bro and helping to put your thoughts in order.

[Legault!]

You have no vehicle to delay Tiki's recruitment in this tier list. It's done as soon as her Paralogue is available, after Ch18. Maybe you meant "do the children maps earlier, with no bearing whatsoever on when we recruit Tiki, pinky-promise".

All children paralogues other than Cynthia's are available after Chapter 16. If we do all of the children maps, that's 12 additional chapters' worth of experience; Tiki will be much worse in comparison. If we do five maps, Tiki will be somewhat worse in comparison. If we do none, Tiki will be better in comparison.

There's no need to be self-conscious about it; I don't mind being a bro and helping to put your thoughts in order.

Articulating something usually means understanding it. But like I said in another topic, your genius transcends the rest of us, so I very much appreciate you helping this plebeian out.

[Interceptor]

All children paralogues other than Cynthia's are available after Chapter 16. If we do all of the children maps, that's 12 additional chapters' worth of experience; Tiki will be much worse in comparison. If we do five maps, Tiki will be somewhat worse in comparison. If we do none, Tiki will be better in comparison.

Obviously. Imagine all the keystrokes we could have saved if you were just clear about what you meant in the first place; there is no "delaying" of Tiki's recruitment, what you meant was that the potential for an arbitrary number of child paralogues prior to Tiki's recruitment makes it impossible to approximate her power level relative to the rest of the team for the purposes of the tier list, due to the vagueness of the OP's guidelines. That's a complex thought, in a single English sentence.

I solve problems.

Articulating something usually means understanding it. But like I said in another topic, your genius transcends the rest of us, so I very much appreciate you helping this plebeian out.

There's no need for false modesty; we all know what the score is, here. Consider the difference in our pedigree: nobody else has Nosferatanked Lunatic in a scant hour's time, this soldier is not even on your level. I'm merely a 16-bit animated GIF in a high-def world. Your assurances that I too, can be a winner, fill me with a warmth not unlike that of a thousand dying suns, or pants-peeing.

[Legault!]

Obviously. Imagine all the keystrokes we could have saved if you were just clear about what you meant in the first place; there is no "delaying" of Tiki's recruitment,

Going to twelve additional maps before Paralogue 17 seems like a delay.

There's no need for false modesty; we all know what the score is, here. Consider the difference in our pedigree: nobody else has Nosferatanked Lunatic in a scant hour's time, this soldier is not even on your level. I'm merely a 16-bit animated GIF in a high-def world. Your assurances that I too, can be a winner, fill me with a warmth not unlike that of a thousand dying suns, or pants-peeing.

I dunno man I feel like I've been extraordinarily clear in this topic. If you want to rephrase all of my posts feel free, but maybe we should focus on the topic.

[MercuryHg34]

As for the magic users thing, I consider Miriel to be extremely overrated atm in this tier list. :/ My personal experience might have to do a lot with that though.

That is DEFINITELY your personal experience, an odd case that isn't the norm. Without reclassing my Miriel is currently a lv 11 Sage with more than double all of those stats.

But then you compare that to my Morgan, who reclassed from mage to tactician and already has better stats than her and you realize Morgan is the best mage ever, lol.

[PKL]

That is DEFINITELY your personal experience, an odd case that isn't the norm. Without reclassing my Miriel is currently a lv 11 Sage with more than double all of those stats.

But then you compare that to my Morgan, who reclassed from mage to tactician and already has better stats than her and you realize Morgan is the best mage ever, lol.

Even if its my personal experience (this is a trend though, she rarely gets def or hp for me), I find it tough to feed her enough kills in LTC(due to her durability) to "completely outclass" Ricken when he joins like someone suggested before. And yeah, Morgan is pretty good.

[Legault!]

Compared to Ricken, Miriel comes earlier, has comparable bases despite being recruited three chapters before Ch.5, has better approximate magic / speed growths, and has access to dark mage. "Completely outclasses" sounds pretty fair.

[PKL]

Compared to Ricken, Miriel comes earlier, has comparable bases despite being recruited three chapters before Ch.5, has better approximate magic / speed growths, and has access to dark mage. "Completely outclasses" sounds pretty fair.

Nope, she cant enough exp in LTC. Granted, this is "brisk" pace so she might win slightly there. But it's not really that onesided as to have Miriel in B tier and Ricken in bottom. And we don't know if those growths are true, for all we know, Ricken might have the better growths.

[Elieson]

Not in Speed, and that base 5 is horribad

[PKL]

Not in Speed, and that base 5 is horribad

Theres enough stuff to fix it and he comes early enough. He's not completely unsalvageable as bottom tier would suggest. In practice, he's comparable to Mriiel. But as people start to play this game more, I suspect they'll realize this and tell me I was right :/

[grandjackal]

Theres enough stuff to fix it and he comes early enough. He's not completely unsalvageable as bottom tier would suggest. In practice, he's comparable to Mriiel. But as people start to play this game more, I suspect they'll realize this and tell me I was right :/

What? No. You are smoking something strong, sir. There is not "enough stuff" to fix 5 base speed at chapter 5. The only character in the entire game slower than him is Kellam, and Kellam actually provides a good reason to be fielded at times due to his support.

I don't even know where you begin to think that Ricken is any good. I think Miriel is bad simply because her start is atrocious and gives a support useful to no one except maybe MU if he hasn't been hugging Lissa, but Ricken being better is an unbelievable stretch.

[Interceptor]

Not that Ricken is comparable with Miriel or anything, but it does seem a little absurd to put him underneath Donnel, of all things. He does have realistic support options for his SPD, starts with D-rank Tomes (two chapters after his join is a smörgåsbord of Elwind-weak targets for him), etc.

[Samias]

In my experience using both characters, I find Miriel a tad overrated and Ricken underrated. While Miriel starts with good bases, in my experience her durability is absolute crap, and unlike Maribelle who we can sort of leave in the backlines to heal, Miriel needs to see combat and yet gets 2HKOed by most enemies in the game. She can't really hold her own on the enemy phase without reclassing to dark mage and grabbing Nosferatu, in which case Tharja still does it better by virtue of actually packing defense growth. The best path for Miriel is Mage -> Sage -> Valkyrie and have Tomefaire-and-horsepowered Rescues, but that is a very time consuming path for someone who really does have a tricky time accumulating a lot of exp. If anything I think most of who is in B-tier is actually worse than a number of units in C-tier but I don't really have time to say anything about it.

Ricken should definitely be above Donnel, since Ricken starts at D-rank tomes, chips hard, and has 1-2 range. Sure, Donnel grows faster, but Donnel also needs 9 levels to get out of hell. His speed base is really bad and he essentially has nothing to reclass into, but by the playstyle this tier list assumes, he doesn't *need* any other class. Personally I would put him just under Virion, because his current placement assumes he's nigh unusable, which is far from the case. I assume my one playthrough where Ricken was significantly better than Miriel was a fluke, but Ricken is pretty consistent in his magic and defense growths, and okay on the speed growths.

Sumia should really be up above Sully and Stahl. She too has the insta-marriage option with Chrom and her speed allows her to be the first to consistently double most of the enemies in the game. Sumia's offense begins to peter out after awhile if her strength growth doesn't keep up but she is seriously an early game behemoth who is at least essential for the entire Plegia arc. She has limited supports but Frederick, Chrom, Avatar, Sully, and Cordelia are all great characters so she's not exactly hurting for a partner. She's also one of the few units who is likely to get Galeforce in this type of playthrough.

[Blademaster!]

For the whole Child paralogue argument, I think it might be best to just do them when enemy levels of the current chapter equal those of the child paralogue chapter. The order of enemy level is something like this IIRC:

Still have unpromoted enemies/easiest to do:

Morgan, Owain, Kjelle, Laurent

Level 3 Promoted:

Cynthia

Level 5 Promoted:

Brady, Yarne?(may actually be lvl 6)

Level 6 Promoted:

Severa

Level 7 Promoted:

Noire

Level 8 Promoted:

Gerome, Inigo, Nah

I feel like I posted this before? Anyway, this seems like the easiest way to decide when to do them if you ask me.

[Dark Sage]

What? No. You are smoking something strong, sir. There is not "enough stuff" to fix 5 base speed at chapter 5. The only character in the entire game slower than him is Kellam, and Kellam actually provides a good reason to be fielded at times due to his support.

Not even Kellam. His base speed is 6, Ricken's is 5. It's pretty sad when you're slower than an armor.

Ricken should get out of bottom and get put into Low or something. He's awful but he's definitely not worse than fucking Donnel.