FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Lord Raven]

The good and balanced thing about Avatar is, judging by most people's experiences, his growths are fairly below-average. He just grows levels fast enough to keep up, and has a good skill and class set.

[Espinosa]

The same sane players that made Seth-less tier lists for FE8 because he broke the game. I don't think that it matters though. He'd probably still be leading his own tier regardless.

A Sethless tier list is essentially a more liberal tier list for drafters. No reason, except arbitrary (I won't use because I say so/it's too easy) or misinformed (Seth hogs exp!), to keep one away from using Seth outside of the context of entering a competition on an internet forum with rather specific rules and a big limitation as to which characters you should use.

Doesn't MU have less movement than, like, Myrmidons or something? It doesn't seem like s/he doesn't have any disadvantages at all.

[Florete]

Avatar has as much as Move as any other unpromoted unit (5). I think the only move difference for classes are Knights with 1 less and Thieves eventually getting +1.

Avatar has pretty average, maybe even below average growths, but can grow so fast with Veteran that it doesn't even matter. I can't think of any significant disadvantages Avatar has, but s/he is not exactly a unit that steamrolls the game from start to finish like Seth. At least, not from my experience.

[Titamon]

Maybe I've just been getting lucky, but I've never gotten the impression that Avatar's growths are somehow worse or below average compared to everyone else.

[grandjackal]

I've started multiple games with multiple Avatars, and ther growths seem to be wildly different at times even though each one is +Mag -Skill. Like for instance around 20/15, I've had one with an absurd amount of magic (high 30s), while havng like 16 sped, while another had high speed and only magic in the mid 20s. General I know, but it seems very wild.

Maybe your build of Avatar also factors growths?

[Bryan]

I've started multiple games with multiple Avatars, and ther growths seem to be wildly different at times even though each one is +Mag -Skill. Like for instance around 20/15, I've had one with an absurd amount of magic (high 30s), while havng like 16 sped, while another had high speed and only magic in the mid 20s. General I know, but it seems very wild.

Maybe your build of Avatar also factors growths?

That's odd, I've done +luck -HP with six MUs and they're all within a couple of points in every stat, since they've all had similar amounts of levels.

[Armond]

I admit that my hard mode playthrough isn't anywhere near as far as I'd like it to be, but I'm wondering why Virion is so low. Getting him to 10 is a huge pain because he starts in one of the worst classes in the game, but when I went with it on my normal mode playthrough, he ended up being one of my best units as a Wyvern Lord. Of course, in trying to duplicate this in hard mode (in the name of SCIENCE), I'm finding that getting him to 10 is already really annoying, and I'm not exactly expecting second seals to rain from the sky (obviously Panne is the highest priority for a second seal, but I'm guessing people will tell me to spend my second one on Fredrick or Kellam, which pushes Virion back quite a ways). Beyond the crappy leveling and base speed, is there more that holds back Virion, or am I underestimating how good some of the other units are? I would at least rate him around the level of Mirabelle, who in both my playthroughs so far has been quite unimpressive - her absolute failure to get levels worth a damn is probably an anomaly, but without healtouch I find her healing to be mediocre at best (though I've not tried her as a dark knight or dark flier - that's on the to do) - compared to Virion's ability to impress with a second seal.

[dondon151]

archer is a bad class and has very little utility

[Jediabiwan]

The thing is every character can get really good as long as you put some work into them. Some just can get better a lot faster and easier. Vision gets stuck in one of the worst class meaning training him takes way to much work for someone who doesn't bring anything special compared to everyone else.

[Emblem Lugh]

archer is a bad class and has very little utility

Not to mention his reclass options are even worse for him. >.>

[Elieson]

Not to mention his reclass options are even worse for him. >.>

Rider isn't a bad option, but dropping back to E lances is.

[Espinosa]

How useful/limiting is a character that attacks just once on player phase and only counters behind the pair-up partner on enemy phase? Talking about just Virion I suppose; nobody cares about Tharja's daughter.

[shadykid]

How useful/limiting is a character that attacks just once on player phase and only counters behind the pair-up partner on enemy phase? Talking about just Virion I suppose; nobody cares about Tharja's daughter.

at least Noire can instant-reclass lol

Virion? enjoy getting to level 10

[Florete]

Rider isn't a bad option, but dropping back to E lances is.

It's Axes, but yeah.

How useful/limiting is a character that attacks just once on player phase and only counters behind the pair-up partner on enemy phase? Talking about just Virion I suppose; nobody cares about Tharja's daughter.

BLOOD AND THUNDER!

Obviously she's in a separate list at the moment, and maybe this is just my anomalous experience, but in my Lunatic run I found Noire to basically be usable immediately. Her biggest flaw is having E in anything not Bows (and only C there). I, uh, don't really know what I'm trying to argue with this. I guess just that Noire might not be as bad as she looks on paper (which is admittedly pretty bad).

I really just wanted to say BLOOD AND THUNDER.

[Shadow Mir]

BLOOD AND THUNDER!

Obviously she's in a separate list at the moment, and maybe this is just my anomalous experience, but in my Lunatic run I found Noire to basically be usable immediately. Her biggest flaw is having E in anything not Bows (and only C there). I, uh, don't really know what I'm trying to argue with this. I guess just that Noire might not be as bad as she looks on paper (which is admittedly pretty bad).

I really just wanted to say BLOOD AND THUNDER.

Yeah. It helps her case that the enemies right outside the room where Noire starts don't take bow attacks well.

[Blademaster!]

So I decided to try and do a "low tier run" to see if any characters in Lower tiers might deserve to go up. At the moment, the only characters I might try and argue up are Ricken and Kellam, but we'll see how that goes. I don't plan on doing rescue skipping, and by moving at a "brisk" pace, I'm not trying to do LTC possible either, but atm I've probably gone a bit more over budget than I should have. Anyway, Starting from Chapter 2 I decided to take notes on enemy stats. They are spoiled for size. I also added some silly comments at the bottom of each enemy listing for each chapter. Feel free to ignore those. At the moment it only goes from Chapter 2-5 and includes paralogue one. If anyone wants to help give me ways to improve on this listing, please let me know.

Enemy Notes:

Bosses not included. Dropable items not mentioned for Chapter 2 since I forgot...

Chapter 2:

Notes:

Speed:

Merc's seem to be able to have 9 or 10 speed

Soldiers have 8

Bandit's have 7

Attack:

Merc have 14 or 15

Soldier have 15 or 16

Bandit's have 17

Hit:

Merc ~114

Soldier ~100

Bandit's ~88

HP:

Merc and Soldier: 23

Bandit: 24/25

Def:

Soldier: 3

Merc: 2 or 3 (2 more common)

Bandit: 2

Res:

All seem to have 0 with a few 1's

Skills:

1 bandit had gamble

Reinforcements:

None

Other:

Lissa, -Speed Avatar, and Virion are the only characters able to be doubled without pair up at base.

Base Fred can kill anything but maybe Bandit's with the Silver Lance. With C support from Chrom, he doubles any enemy with 9 or less speed at base. Takes no damage with Stahl/Sully support from anything but Bandit's in addition to OHKO'ing the map with SL now(excluding boss).

Chrom or Avatar+Speed seem to be the only other characters capable of doubling this map when supporting each other and pair up depending on level ups from previous chapter

Chapter 3:

Enemy by class:

ArcherX5:

Lvl 3

Hp: ~23/24 Atk: 15(27 effective?) Spd: 8 Def: ~2/3 Res: ~0/1 Hit: ~105 One Archer had Skl+2

FighterX2:

No hammer Lvl 3

Hp: 26+5 Atk: 20 Spd: 7 Def: 3 Res: 0 Hit: 93 Has +5 Hp Skill

Hammer Lvl 3

Hp: 26 Atk: 23(43 Effective?) Spd: 8 Def: 3 Res: 0 Hit 79

KnightX2:

Lvl 3

Hp: 26 Atk: 20 Spd: 2 Def: 9+2 Res 0 Hit 98 Both had Def+2 Skl

MercenaryX3

Lvl 3

Hp ~23/24 Atk 16 Spd 10 Def 4 Res ~0/1 Skills: One had Patience

Soldierx4

Hp 24 Atk ~15/16 Spd ~8/9 Def 3 Res ~0/1 Skills: None

Droppable:

Door Key X2

Hammer X1

Reinforcements: None

Other:

Fred+Kellam takes no damge from anything but Knights and Fighter. Doesn't suffer from Hammer OHKO like this. Kellam+Fred is the same but gets OHKO'd by Hammer and takes more damage from Knights and Fighter

Same people as before get doubled at base by Mercs + Kellam. Some Soldier's double base Lissa.

Knights: Can be doubled by everyone with pairup

Other units with doubling Potential:

Sumia gives +4

Chrom gives +3 at base, +4 at 10+Spd or C Support, +5 with C and 10+Spd

Avatar gives +3 with C support

Units with 15 spd can double everything (Only Sumia+Chrom can really do this.)

Units likely to get 14 spd with pair up: Fred (Chrom and +Spd Avatar might)

Units likely to get 13 spd: Chrom, +spd Avatar, Sully

Paralogue 1:

All enemies lvl 4

Archersx7

Hp ~24/25 Atk ~15/16(27/28 effective?) Spd 8 Def 3 Res ~0/1 Hit ~105 Skills: 1 had Skl+2

Banditsx8

Hp 28 Atk ~18/19 Spd ~7/8 Def ~3/4 Res 0 Hit ~90 Skills: 2 had Gamble

HandAxe Banditx1

Stats: About same as above. Atk 15 Hit ~86

Thievesx3

Hp ~22/23 Atk 13 Spd ~14/15 Def 2 Res 0 Hit ~112 Skills: All had Locktouch

Reinforcements:

None

Dropable Items:

Chest Keyx2

Door Key

Chests:

Killer Lance

Rescue

Theif AI:

One tries to steal the killer lance, another only attacks in range, last moves in to attack you

Other:

Kellam and Frederick take practically no damage from everything together. There are a lot of Archers making it a bit worrisome at times to use Sumia, but gives Virion the opportunity to make use of his enemy phase. Training Donnel is a huge pain of course.

Thieves are really fast, but deal little damage in hard mode so aren't too worrisome given how easy to kill they are. Give good exp like always.

Sumia with a C support 10+spd Chrom is probably the only unit who can double theives with 14 spd. Otherwise, they pretty much double everyone (even with the average pair up) other than Sully, Fred, Sumia, Chrom, and Avatar.

13+spd lets you double everything but the boss. Sumia has this at base. Sully, Avatar, Chrom, and Fred are probably the only other characters who can reach this with a Chrom or Sumia support.

Chapter 4:

All Lvl 5

Fighterx4

Iron Axe x2

Hp ~27/28 Atk 20 Spd 8 Def ~3/4 Res ~0/1 Hit ~95 Crit: ~4 Avo: ~15 Skills: None

Hand Axe x2

Atk 16 hit ~90 Skills: None

Knight x2

Hp 28 Atk 20 Spd 3 Def 10 Res ~0/1 Hit ~100 Crit: ~4 Avo: ~7 Skills: None

Mage x2

Hp 22 Atk ~12/13 spd 7 Def ~1/2 Res 4 Hit ~93 Crit: ~8 Avo: ~13 Skills:None

Reinforcements:

Droppable:

Vulnarary x1

Thunder x1

Other:

Enemies are still kinda weak. Only the boss can double certain units. Mages can cause problems, but are kinda easy to kill

13 spd again lets you double every enemy, with the same conditions as before. Bringing Donnel is Suicide.

Chapter 5:

Wyvern Rider x4 Lvl 7

Hp ~26/27 Atk ~18/19 Spd 8 Def ~8/9 Res ~0/1 Hit ~96 Crit ~4 Avo ~15 Skills None

Rest are lvl 5

Bandit x6

Hp 29 Atk 19 Spd 8 Def 4 Res ~0/1 Hit ~91 crit ~3 Avo ~14 Skills: 3 had Gamble

Dark Mage x3

Hp 26 Atk ~12/13 Spd 5 Def ~4/5 Res 4 Hit ~78 Crit ~2 Avo ~9 Skills: 1 had hex 1 had Anathema

Mage x1

Hp 22 atk 11 Spd 7 Def 1 Res 4 Hit ~103 Crit ~3 Avo ~13 Skills: Focus

Myrmidon x4

Hp 24 atk 15 spd 13 def ~3/4 res ~2/3 hit ~117 crit ~6 Avo ~23 Skills: 1 had avo+10

Reinforcements:

Turn 3: 2 Bandits. One has a hand axe, one Myrm. From forts.

Turn 4: 2 Wyvern riders

Turn 5: 1 Bandit, 1 Dark mage, 1 Myrmidon

Enemy AI:

Boss moves along with 2 resting Wyverns only?

Droppable:

Bullion(m)

Handaxe

Other:

Enemy spd still isn't that much different other than Mym's, but Kellam and Fred likely can't even be hurt by them. 13 spd still doubles the map. Ricken is possibly just a better version of Virion if you train him a bit?

[Florete]

Should Cherche really be so high? I hate to do this because I love my Wyvern girls, but she seems really lacking.

1. She's one of the latest to join.

2. Her Spd is very problematic (doubled in her first map without pairing).

3. She flies, but with all the anti-air in this game I'm questioning how advantageous that really is. And it's not like she has the Res of the Pegasi.

4. Her re-class options are Troubadour and Cleric. Like seriously, way to screw her out of re-classing immediately for quick leveling.

Personally, I think she should go down to C Tier. Tharja comes earlier with the same Spd and Nos-tanking for what is probably both better offense and durability. Libra's combat leaves something to be desired but it's better than hers for a while and he has good staff utility. Gregor and Tiki I'm not really sure about since I haven't used them enough on Hard mode to determine, and I don't really know how to argue Olivia/Maribelle!Lucina, but I had an Olivia!Lucina and Cherche on my last Hard run and Lucina definitely outperformed Cherche there (PEMN sure, but with inaccurate growths and children characters just being weird there isn't much else to go on).

Otherwise, what is keeping Cherche up there?

[Shadow Mir]

Should Cherche really be so high? I hate to do this because I love my Wyvern girls, but she seems really lacking.

1. She's one of the latest to join.

2. Her Spd is very problematic (doubled in her first map without pairing).

3. She flies, but with all the anti-air in this game I'm questioning how advantageous that really is. And it's not like she has the Res of the Pegasi.

4. Her re-class options are Troubadour and Cleric. Like seriously, way to screw her out of re-classing immediately for quick leveling.

Personally, I think she should go down to C Tier. Tharja comes earlier with the same Spd and Nos-tanking for what is probably both better offense and durability. Libra's combat leaves something to be desired but it's better than hers for a while and he has good staff utility. Gregor and Tiki I'm not really sure about since I haven't used them enough on Hard mode to determine, and I don't really know how to argue Olivia/Maribelle!Lucina, but I had an Olivia!Lucina and Cherche on my last Hard run and Lucina definitely outperformed Cherche there (PEMN sure, but with inaccurate growths and children characters just being weird there isn't much else to go on).

Otherwise, what is keeping Cherche up there?

I dunno, but I'd say Tharja being above Cherche is kinda iffy as well (I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want anyone I want to be relying on for Nosferatanking to have non-trivial miss chances or face crit chances. Guess what Tharja's biggest issues are...?).

Edited March 18, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[bottlegnomes]

I really just wanted to say BLOOD AND THUNDER.

Seems like reason enough to post.

Anyway, I'd agree on Cherche. Can't really speak on Tharja ('cause fuck sadistic bitchy characters) or Gregor, but Lucina's going to be pretty good no matter what (her dad is Chrom after all), and she can insta-reclass to cav for faster leveling and some extra move without much change to stats (-2 speed being the biggest, but from my experience, nothing too problematic); Libra's got decent combat, good durability, and staves, but IMO that's more of an issue of Libra being too low; and Tiki can shitstomp dracos as well as generally doing a lot of damage and being tanky, just kind of slow, or reclass to wyvern rider for much faster leveling, some extra move, and a bunch of extra str, spd, and def (ignoring stone bonuses), though E axes is still painful. If we're factoring in recruitment (which is stupid; we haven't up until now), I could see Tiki below Cherche, but otherwise, she's basically a general who does a bunch of damage to dracos or Cherche but better in every way (Cher would have to be pretty much 20/1 to match 1/0 Tiki's stats), minus weapon levels and join time.

[Florete]

I dunno, but I'd say Tharja being above Cherche is kinda iffy as well (I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want anyone I want to be relying on for Nosferatanking to have non-trivial miss chances or face crit chances. Guess what Tharja's biggest issues are...?).

Yes, Tharja has Hit issues, but any support partner and a Secret Book or two (not like most units care about them) will mostly make that a non-issue. I'm not proposing Tharja go up, she has flaws and is pretty good where she is for now, but I do think I've found her performing better than Cherche.

[Elieson]

Quick access to Deliverer,without the need for a Second Seal?

Instant Flying Hammer use when considering Valm is loaded with Armor class enemies?

She needs speed to double some things? Give her someone like Gaius through PairUp, because he appreciates the strength and she appreciates both the speed and the added support with an Armourslayer.

That's an extremely effective Armor killing unit, and does pretty well against (I'd say) half of the Silver [since lance] wielding Paladins with her solid defense.

Plus Instant Promotion gives her +4 Speed (on top of a base 13). That's 17 speed pretty much at Base as Griffon Rider, and that certainly doesn't suck.

Compared to Tharja, who has nos-tanking, but no quick way to bolster up her speed, and comes only 2.5 chapters earlier, with -1 base speed and shit for speed through promo gains. So we're looking at a 60% vs 55% speed growths (T vs C respectively), and a base difference of 4 speed considering instant promo to both. I'm not sure but I see Cherche'a arrival timing more useful for her class and hammer access versus Tharja and her NosTanking for the majority of the Valm line.

[grandjackal]

Quick access to Deliverer,without the need for a Second Seal?

It's a nifty skill, but am I the only one who isn't that big a fan of Gryphon Knight?

Instant Flying Hammer use when considering Valm is loaded with Armor class enemies?

Magic and defense usually trumps more than just armors, two things Tharja has a good amount of.

She needs speed to double some things? Give her someone like Gaius through PairUp, because he appreciates the strength and she appreciates both the speed and the added support with an Armourslayer.

He does not help her enemy phase, which I feel is the bigger deal for her. She doesn't help his either.

That's an extremely effective Armor killing unit, and does pretty well against (I'd say) half of the Silver [since lance] wielding Paladins with her solid defense.

She does not do well against the various spellslingers and bowman that swamp a lot of later-half maps, a problem that Tharja doesn't have to deal with...Ok, her low resistance is somewhat annoying against mages, but it's one problem vs Serje's several.

Plus Instant Promotion gives her +4 Speed (on top of a base 13). That's 17 speed pretty much at Base as Griffon Rider, and that certainly doesn't suck.

Instant promotion pretty much ensures that she's never going to have a lategame what with having crippled her leveling speed. 17 as a base is not that hot. To prove my point, plenty of foes in just a couple chapters of her jointime will be packing around 22 speed. She needs a support just to avoid getting doubled, much less actually put up an offense.

Compared to Tharja, who has nos-tanking, but no quick way to bolster up her speed, and comes only 2.5 chapters earlier, with -1 base speed and shit for speed through promo gains. So we're looking at a 60% vs 55% speed growths (T vs C respectively), and a base difference of 4 speed considering instant promo to both. I'm not sure but I see Cherche'a arrival timing more useful for her class and hammer access versus Tharja and her NosTanking for the majority of the Valm line.

It's pretty easy to argue that putting the effort into Tharja early pays off royally. Consider that they both want speed supports. For Serge, this only helps her double things, while not helping her real problem: enemy phase. The game simply doesn't want fliers to have an existing enemy phase with all the bowmen flying about, and a speed support doesn't help with this. Tharja on the other hand grows a metric ton of durability, along with having fat boosts from Dark Knight (I find Nos-tanking to be overrated when you can just have an unbelievable amount of defense on top of 7 move), so all that she needs to be a complete unit is a speed support. That's the key difference to me. Once a support is built, Tharja quickly becomes out of control. With similar help, Serge still has issues.

There is an argument to be had here, I just think you need to dig a bit deeper than armorslaying and speed. My issue with her is that by the time she shows up, she's just the slow ass flier of the group. She's kinda shoehorned into a passive role cause she's not good at much else other than...armorslaying. Tharja on the other hand once she gets over her initial hurdle, she becomes nearly unstoppable post promotion considering her...well, considerable durability growths and promotion gains. On top of having a horse and magic 1-2 range, it's pretty easy to forget about her initial problems of acc. It's that potential that she can realistically pay off that Serge can never match (I know I've used like several iterations of her name, I forget what her name is and I'm deprived of sleep).

[Titamon]

-Give Tharja a skill book and a goddess icon

- Pair her with Avatar with Solidify

And boom, Accuracy and Crit issues are greatly minimized.

Quick access to Deliverer,without the need for a Second Seal?

Instant Flying Hammer use when considering Valm is loaded with Armor class enemies?

That's an extremely effective Armor killing unit, and does pretty well against (I'd say) half of the Silver [since lance] wielding Paladins with her solid defense.

Knights/Generals aren't really troublesome in this game. This isn't like Radiant Dawn where Knights had high spd and def. In fact I think some of the Paladins outclass the knights durability wise. The enemy type that's really plentiful during the Valm arc is cavalry units.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Merry Sioux

[PKL]

Uh...Armors are generally really hard to ORKO without a hammer in FE13...so ??? I've tried using Tharja and she did better as a Dark Knight paired up into Lon'qu always for the crit bonus. Which meant she didnt get much exp. She's kinda bad in any sort of run where you arent turtling to give her kills imo. As for Cherche having spd issues, I point you to Naga's Tear, C16 Speedwings, Speed Tonics, Griffon promo bonus, Lon'qu/Gaius pair ups. I dont think she ever stopped doubling when I used her in the draft I got her and she wasnt exactly spd blessed.

Edited March 18, 2013 by CordeliaxFrederick

[Florete]

Uh...Armors are generally really hard to ORKO without a hammer in FE13...so ???

Magic units as well as Armorslayers and Rapiers of both kinds kill them pretty well. Panne and Sully also have access to flying Hammer use and Panne, at least, will probably be there. I'm not seeing how Hammer use is so special with all else Cherche needs to make up for.

I've tried using Tharja and she did better as a Dark Knight paired up into Lon'qu always for the crit bonus. Which meant she didnt get much exp.

That's your fault, not hers.

She's kinda bad in any sort of run where you arent turtling to give her kills imo.

She was kinda amazing in my Lunatic run where I didn't turtle to give her kills. (well, I turtled at times, but never specifically for her) I've never had the least bit of trouble using her in Hard. At least not any more than using Cherche, who has both offense and durability issues from the start.

As for Cherche having spd issues, I point you to Naga's Tear, C16 Speedwings, Speed Tonics, Griffon promo bonus, Lon'qu/Gaius pair ups. I dont think she ever stopped doubling when I used her in the draft I got her and she wasnt exactly spd blessed.

Naga's Tear, really? The Speedwing may be acceptable since there's kind of a lot of most stat boosters, but this ain't a draft and other units want Spd, too.