FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[PKL]

Vengeance at 10/5. Awakening Hard enemies have consistently poor hit rates, which gives Tharja plenty of time to recover. Dual blocks. 12 base speed + 60% speed growth + Awakening Hard enemies being slow and easy to double.

This isn't idle theorycraft; it's something I've tested plenty of times before. It's not hard to try out, either -- I'd recommend spending the twenty minutes getting up to Ch.8 and use Tharja seriously.

Getting Galeforce on Cordelia by Chapter 15 and 1 turning every map, trivializing bows and magic is something I've done multiple times, not theory ;). So is owning the game with Deliverer Cherche and Rescue Anna. There's like 0 demand to have a nosferatank in HM.

[Legault!]

It certainly sounds closer to theorycraft than anything else, if you ask me.

It's something that can be easily tested; getting up to Ch.8 takes less than a half-hour.

Also, I wouldn't rely on dual blocks to keep me alive, since they're not reliable enough.

Of course you wouldn't. Dual blocks are just a small part of the reason her survivability, even early on, isn't a problem.

Also, I have used her seriously in my playthrough, and I still think you're going overboard with your hyping. And Vengeance? Why is that relevant when I wouldn't want my health low enough that it actually has any effect, ideally?

Tharja has 40 HP. Enemy has 50 HP and does ten damage, Tharja does 20x2 damage. Player gets extremely unlucky and critical activates, knocking down Tharja to 10 HP. Vengeance activates, Tharja now does 35+20 damage, knocking the enemy out and getting back up to 35 HP.

These numbers are entirely arbitrary. The reason Vengeance makes Nosferatanking so simple is that even if the player is to get unlucky and take more damage than is usually comfortable, Nosferatu's absorbed HP only increases as HP goes down. It makes death virtually impossible.

Also consider the snowball effect of Nosferatanking experience: a great tank like Tharja begins by soloing small armies. She gets lots of experience and lots of level-ups, which means lots of stats very quickly. This means she can solo even larger armies comfortably, etc.

Getting Galeforce on Cordelia by Chapter 15 and 1 turning every map, trivializing bows and magic is something I've done multiple times, not theory ;). So is owning the game with Deliverer Cherche and Rescue Anna. There's like 0 demand to have a nosferatank in HM.

Ignoring the obvious hyperbole of this post (it's impossible to one-turn every map with one unit), Cordelia's defenses are only okay and she has no in-battle healing option, meaning that when it comes to rout maps, she can't be expected to solo large armies on her own. Again, the tradeoff is slightly faster kill boss completions versus far more reliable rout completions. You'd think that on an efficiency run, the latter would be more highly valued.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Legault!

[grandjackal]

I feel Tharja's a bad example, because she doesn't even need Nostanking to be an absurd unit. Always felt Dark Knight being more notable than Sorcerer for her on account of her having a ridiculous amount of durability that the only thing she has to even remotely fear is mages where there has to be an unreasonable amount targetting her for her to even begin to worry.

Anyways, agreed that Henry is just bad. Most mages aren't durable/fast enough to actually take the punishment for Nosferatu to do what Legault implies, and Avatar doesn't really care what he does cause he has several methods to become a silly person.

[Dark Sage]

Are people forgetting the real reason we don't take into account a Nosfertank!MU/Miriel/Tharja in the tier list? It kills discussion which is one of the main points for posting this to begin with.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Tyrant Sage

[Legault!]

I feel Tharja's a bad example, because she doesn't even need Nostanking to be an absurd unit. Always felt Dark Knight being more notable than Sorcerer for her on account of her having a ridiculous amount of durability that the only thing she has to even remotely fear is mages where there has to be an unreasonable amount targetting her for her to even begin to worry.

Considering Dark Knight doesn't have a battle-heal tome, Sorcerer's durability is actually far higher in practice.

Are people forgetting the real reason we don't take into account a Nosfertank!MU/Miriel/Tharja in the tier list? It kills discussion which is one of the main points for posting this to begin with.

It would be one thing to do this because Nosferatanks are broken; that's something I'd sympathize with. It's another to argue in earnest that Cordelia and Cherche are better units than Tharja, the second-best user of the most game-breaking tome in Fire Emblem.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Legault!

[Elieson]

[sarcasm]

New Tier list.

Top:

Avatar

Tharja

[Morgan]

Mid:

Miriel

Henry

Low: Anyone else who can reclass to Sorcerer like Libra

Maybe Frederick

Bottom: Rest

Logic being: 5-6 Mov and usage of an exclusive time breaks the game and this warrants discussion as to why to even bother considering the rest of the receuitable character, and proceedss a brisk pace is now accepted as max Sorcerer movement per turn.

Why worry about LTC when you simply don't even need to play prologues?

Discuss

[/sarcasm]

[Legault!]

I get the feeling that was supposed to be clever.

If "brisk pace" has some definition that eludes me and somehow excludes beating the game in under an hour with Nosferatanks, I'd love to be caught up to speed.

[Shadow Mir]

I get the feeling that was supposed to be clever.

If "brisk pace" has some definition that eludes me and somehow excludes beating the game in under an hour with Nosferatanks, I'd love to be caught up to speed.

Maybe this oughta be a newsflash: This. Is Not. A Speedrun Tier List. Get it? Got it? Good.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Legault!]

Maybe this oughta be a newsflash: This. Is Not. A Speedrun Tier List. Get it? Got it? Good.

Talking about total time helps demonstrate the "brisk" pace a Nosferatank run flies at. Nothing more. I'm in no way suggesting we should evaluate units based on how quickly the game can be completed.

But I think there's been enough attacking me for one day. I'd like for someone to clarify what "brisk" means so we can resolve these tensions.

[Elieson]

There is nothing normal about a fucking solo.

That's what we mean by Brisk.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Elieson

[KitheOfEvrark]

As I understand it, brisk means we aren't grinding and we aren't turtling our way through the game. That's it. It's not complicated.

[Legault!]

So far we've got brisk = not solo and brisk = not turtling.

Nosferatanking isn't turtling, so that thankfully isn't an issue. Not letting an overpowered unit solo seems very odd -- it's not like Seth isn't allowed to solo. In fact, he's so good at it that he's banned on the FE8 list.

[Redwall]

Maybe this oughta be a newsflash: This. Is Not. A Speedrun Tier List. Get it? Got it? Good.

No duh, I think Legault! realizes that. Yet you have folks like Doofina and PKL arguing that Galeforce/Rescue chains with Cordelia et al. are more efficient because they cost fewer turns. Although they're certainly correct about the lower turn counts resulting from such tactics, it certainly requires more planning to beat levels with a convoluted Galeforce/Dance/Rescue chain than it does with a Nosferatu-fest. If "efficient play" includes thinking / human time as a resource, then Nos-tanking is by far the most efficient thing to do since it requires absolutely no thought whatsoever. On the other hand, if "efficient play" considers only virtual resources (in-game wallet, turn counts), then yes, Nos-tanking is totally inefficient. Someone ought to flesh out for me what specifically distinguishes efficient from inefficient play in this tier list.

[Florete]

While I'd go straight for Rally Spectrum myself, I'd say the smartest thing to do with the first second seal is reclass Panne to wyvern rider, while the second smartest thing would be to reclass Gregor to a Barbarian. The issue with Donnel is that about 100% of the time the smart thing to do does not involve Donnel.

No shit. When are people going to realize that this is under the assumption Donnel is being used? Obviously he is not at all involved in the most efficient team, I'm not arguing against that, but that doesn't put him on the tier list. When you tier him, you have to assume he's used, and if he's used, you're going to want to make the smartest decisions with that in mind. With that in mind, Donnel is #1 priority for a Second Seal.

The issue is more on how one can get him to level 10 quickly, because he's that much a pain in the ass to bother with.

Pair Up with someone like Frederick and have him grab missed kills. It's not that hard, he comes really early.

As for this Nosferatu thing, I think the people arguing against Legault! are going about it in the wrong way. While I do think it's something very much worth considering that could possibly move Tharja and Henry up the list, it must also be considered that this is Hard mode, and Hard mode just isn't that hard. Most any married couple paired up can wreak havoc with little to no chance of death even when some Boss Kill maps are 1-2 turned. A Nos-tanker isn't much, if any, better.

[Legault!]

As for this Nosferatu thing, I think the people arguing against Legault! are going about it in the wrong way. While I do think it's something very much worth considering that could possibly move Tharja and Henry up the list, it must also be considered that this is Hard mode, and Hard mode just isn't that hard. Most any married couple paired up can wreak havoc with little to no chance of death even when some Boss Kill maps are 1-2 turned. A Nos-tanker isn't much, if any, better.

You can't throw a typical 10/5 unit into the middle of enemy territory and expect reliable survival; that's the edge Nosferatanks have over all other options in the game, and their prowess only grows as the game progresses. What few difficult maps exist in Hard are either rout (23, 24) or filled with sturdy and hard-hitting promoted enemies (19, 20). A Galeforcer or Deliverer is going to be adequate at best in these situations. A Nosferatank can plow through them effortlessly.

[shadykid]

Maybe this oughta be a newsflash: This. Is Not. A Speedrun Tier List. Get it? Got it? Good.

careful now, someone's going to do a sub-1 hour speedrun of this game

[Florete]

You can't throw a typical 10/5 unit into the middle of enemy territory and expect reliable survival; that's the edge Nosferatanks have over all other options in the game, and their prowess only grows as the game progresses. What few difficult maps exist in Hard are either rout (23, 24) or filled with sturdy and hard-hitting promoted enemies (19, 20). A Galeforcer or Deliverer is going to be adequate at best in these situations. A Nosferatank can plow through them effortlessly.

I'm not disagreeing with your implications of what a Nos-tank can do. It largely got me through Lunatic, and if it can do that, it can obviously do it in Hard. What I'm saying is the magnitude; for one, I don't use 10/5 units. I either re-class at 10 before promoting at the next 10 or promote at 18-20 since the time the units will be at these levels is usually when they can still perform just as well in them. The promoted units thereafter can handle most maps just fine, and it's not even tough to grab a kid like Morgan and just throw em on the team with an adequate Pair Up partner.

Galeforce and Deliverer are overrated. Galeforce comes too late to have much of an effect on the game in efficient play unless you get it on a female Avatar (and potentially Morgan) and Deliverer is not only on a sub-par class that just one sub-par and late-joining unit has access to without re-classing, but usually makes no difference in quick clearing boss kill maps (and if you really need the boost, use Boots).

[PKL]

I'm not disagreeing with your implications of what a Nos-tank can do. It largely got me through Lunatic, and if it can do that, it can obviously do it in Hard. What I'm saying is the magnitude; for one, I don't use 10/5 units. I either re-class at 10 before promoting at the next 10 or promote at 18-20 since the time the units will be at these levels is usually when they can still perform just as well in them. The promoted units thereafter can handle most maps just fine, and it's not even tough to grab a kid like Morgan and just throw em on the team with an adequate Pair Up partner.

Galeforce and Deliverer are overrated. Galeforce comes too late to have much of an effect on the game in efficient play unless you get it on a female Avatar (and potentially Morgan) and Deliverer is not only on a sub-par class that just one sub-par and late-joining unit has access to without re-classing, but usually makes no difference in quick clearing boss kill maps (and if you really need the boost, use Boots).

Ive reached Galeforce by Chapter 15.

[Florete]

Ive reached Galeforce by Chapter 15.

This is not a draft tier list.

[Integrity]

Typical Integrity "blaze in and throw probably shitty opinions everywhere" form, but if it's established that Nosferatanking is stupid broken overkill, and we didn't tier Seth in the FE8 tier list for that reason, ...why not just not tier for Nosferatanking?

[Legault!]

Typical Integrity "blaze in and throw probably shitty opinions everywhere" form, but if it's established that Nosferatanking is stupid broken overkill,

The problem is that this doesn't seem to be the case. Tharja is currently beneath Vaike!

[PKL]

This is not a draft tier list.

It proves it's certainly acquirable early on to be of impact though. ;)

[Blademaster!]

I'd like for someone to clarify what "brisk" means so we can resolve these tensions.

A LTC run:

You have do this specifically with these units to get the lowest turn count possible. All other units are irrelevant because they don't allow me to beat the game like this. Also, I often have to hope the RNG works out in my favor to allow me to get through the game.

A Brisk run:

I'm no longer restricted to the need to use specific units and I can never rely on only being able to do this or that because of the RNG. I still want to beat the game with a low turn count, but not one that's the absolute lowest turn count possible.

To give a more specific example, let's use the prologue of this game. This example will be done using lunatic mode since I'm more familiar with it because of playing the demo, but it gets the idea across just the same. In Lunatic mode, the lowest turn count I imagine you can get is 4. This is because Fred needs to do the following each turn: turn 1: Kill the closest Mrym. Turn 2: Kill the mage. Turn 3: Kill the other mage. Turn 4: Attack the boss with Fred and hope that he kills himself on enemy phase. In a brisk run, we no longer have to worry about beating the chapter in 4 turns and can instead have avatar or chrom beat the boss instead, getting a 5 or 6 turn completion.

If we were doing an LTC run, I could argue that Fred is better than Chrom or Avatar simply because he allows us to shave off one extra turn if the RNG works in our favor. But in a brisk run, I can't make that argument since we now allow a small buffer of turns and don't rely on the RNG. This is what a brisk run entails I imagine.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Blademaster!

[Legault!]

A Brisk run:

This remains vague. How many fewer turns are acceptable? Can I sacrifice two turns on a given map if it improves my success rate from 80% to 100%?

[Blademaster!]

This remains vague. How many fewer turns are acceptable? Can I sacrifice two turns on a given map if it improves my success rate from 80% to 100%?

1. I don't know, and I've asked the same thing before with no answer.

2. I would argue yes.