Florete Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 You know, if this were Lunatic, I'd agree with Donnel being rock bottom. But in Hard, where feeding kills just isn't all that difficult? Not quite. At least Donnel will be getting somewhere at 10/1 and continue from there to rock the game hard (and have a child who will rock just as hard). Ricken doesn't have anything like that, he starts crap and only really gets mediocre-ish. I still think Donnel should go above Flavia and Basilio, too, and maybe Virion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Ok, maybe I exaggerated, but I still think Miriel is nothing special and Ricken is underrated. He's not omgamazing, but he's perfectly usable, has a niche and has more availability than the other chumps. He's definetely better than Donnel and other late joining chumps. Training Donnel is patience-trying. Heck, even feeding him the kills he needs in his paralogue is a chore that severely cuts down reliability of the chapter clear. I feel like this shouldn't even be discussed. Considering Ricken gets 3rd picked in drafts and is used to much more sucess than Maribelle and Donnel is benched/not recruited because of how awful he is...I know this isnt draft-play but I think some of the things apply here too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 You know, if this were Lunatic, I'd agree with Donnel being rock bottom. But in Hard, where feeding kills just isn't all that difficult? Not quite. At least Donnel will be getting somewhere at 10/1 and continue from there to rock the game hard (and have a child who will rock just as hard). Ricken doesn't have anything like that, he starts crap and only really gets mediocre-ish. I still think Donnel should go above Flavia and Basilio, too, and maybe Virion. Virion has ten levels of suck too, and flavia and Basilio don't exist. Donnel is away better than them. Have you guys even tried to use Donnel? Feeding him kills isn't hard and I LTC this game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZemZem Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Have you guys even tried to use Donnel? Feeding him kills isn't hard and I LTC this game... Agreeing with this. Just pair him up with someone to make feeding him two to three kills easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Agreeing with this. Just pair him up with someone to make feeding him two to three kills easily. Give him some resources. They'll pay off before they will for anyone else. He needs that first second seal, and it makes him a god. For those people that play postgame (I do, I know it's not really counted on this list.) He'll max a stat within the first reclass. Most other units won't max anything for a couple of reclasses. His stats will always be beastly and better than every other unit if you actually use him. He is better than my avatar when I actually use him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Hiryu Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) That first Second Seal has a huge cost associated with it, since taking it away from Panne heavily impacts the rest of the team...or at least greatly impacts your turn counts until you can get the second one. I'm torn over Donnel because it's hard to reconcile his extremely shitty beginning with his, admittedly, incredible mid/lategame. There's definitely going to be disagreement regarding the time/resources needed on him in the beginning vs. the time he saves/benefits he brings after he's up to speed. Although to be fair, I'm not very fond of Basilio/Flavia being over anyone, as I find it very hard to believe that Basilio's one turn of Rally Strength in his joining chapter is greater than whatever Donnel/Ricken brings over the whole game. It's like Fiona wasting laguz gauge all over again. Edited March 21, 2013 by Sol Hiryu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Deadly Sins Posted March 21, 2013 Author Share Posted March 21, 2013 The first and second Second Seals are really close together (end of Paralogue 3 and middle of Chapter 8) so the real opportunity cost is whoever would use the second one (Vaike, Gregor, Miriel, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 That first Second Seal has a huge cost associated with it, since taking it away from Panne heavily impacts the rest of the team...or at least greatly impacts your turn counts until you can get the second one. Wait what. I mean I know Wyvern Panne is really badass but is she really so good that not having her heavily impacts the entire team? I must be really really good at this game because I don't have nearly enough trouble on hard that the loss of a single non-Avatar unit makes a hugely noticeable effect. Especially when that unit needs to be wary of stray arrows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I vote for Vaike. The speed boost from Barbarian is really helpful, and he's already got the weapon ranks (which means he can continue to throw Hand Axes). He's been around longer, so he'll probably have a more permanent support partner than Gregor. Miriel's shortcomings as a Dark Mage have been outlined already; the only advantage she has over Vaike, IMO, is that pairing her with a guy that isn't Chrom will net a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) Donnel also would start with an AMAZING E rank swords when given the much-needed seal. Not to mention, that you'd have to slow down to actually feed him kills. It's super inefficient to train him. People that like Second Seal: Avatar to Pegasus Knight (Veteran Pegasus in C9 is OP, fastest unit to reach Galeforce) Panne to Wyvern Rider (best offense in the game hands down, in a flying mount no less) Vaike to Barbarian (i dont know but ive heard he likes barb for spd) Lon'qu to Wyvern Rider (Flying mount, not so shabby offense, but its not a priority) Virion to Wyvern Rider (fixes him) Kellam to Thief (theory) Miriel to Dark Mage (Nosferatu could fix her terrible defensive capabiliities) Anna to Sage (but thats a lot later) Chrom to a Cavalier (mount) Sully to Wyvern Rider (discipline makes her axe rank quickly rise too) I find Gregor prefers to be a Bow Knight. Anyways, all of those have priority over a terrible unit like Donnel. You guys criticize Ricken for his base spd? I point you to Donnel's base spd and laugh. EDIT: The return of Donnel's training might be high (the end result anyway), but it still isnt high enough to warrant all that stupid babying and the costs associated with using him. At least Ricken can sustain himself vs a common enemy type of C7 (wyverns) and has a desert where he can ferry stuff like Avatar (who also would give him spd and magic in pair up to help his offense) right after. Not to mention, you have a paralogue right after he joins to train him in. Do I need to keep pointing why he's an actually useful unit if used or is that enough? Edited March 21, 2013 by CordeliaxFrederick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I'mma just step in and agree that Ricken is better than Donnel, if only because of those desert chapters giving him an actual use. ...Ricken shouldn't go higher than that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Deadly Sins Posted March 21, 2013 Author Share Posted March 21, 2013 Donnel also would start with an AMAZING E rank swords when given the much-needed seal. Not to mention, that you'd have to slow down to actually feed him kills. It's super inefficient to train him. People that like Second Seal: Avatar to Pegasus Knight (Veteran Pegasus in C9 is OP, fastest unit to reach Galeforce) Panne to Wyvern Rider (best offense in the game hands down, in a flying mount no less) Vaike to Barbarian (i dont know but ive heard he likes barb for spd) Lon'qu to Wyvern Rider (Flying mount, not so shabby offense, but its not a priority) Virion to Wyvern Rider (fixes him) Kellam to Thief (theory) Miriel to Dark Mage (Nosferatu could fix her terrible defensive capabiliities) Anna to Sage (but thats a lot later) Chrom to a Cavalier (mount) Sully to Wyvern Rider (discipline makes her axe rank quickly rise too) It has to take practice to miss the point so broadly. 1: You get two Second Seals back to back. Assuming the first goes to Panne, there is a very short list of units who are ready for the second one. 2: Thief!Kellam? uhhhhhhh 3: Nosferatu doesnt appear until around the third second seal so Miriel doesn't need it until then for that purpose. 4: I conceded that there are a lot of units competing. That said, if you are using Donnel, you are conceding that all of these other units are at least usable without a Second Seal. Donnel pretty much isn't. If you're using him, he needs it ASAP. That said, this is a dumb conversation because Donnel isn't going up any time soon, so I don't even know why this is an argument. In fact, it really isn't. There's basically no realistic way Donnel up is happening, so discussing his contribution is dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 That said, this is a dumb conversation because Donnel isn't going up any time soon, so I don't even know why this is an argument. In fact, it really isn't. There's basically no realistic way Donnel up is happening, so discussing his contribution is dumb. It's because someone (hi) is arguing for Donnel to go up and if you're just going to come in and say no I'll tell you to get off your high horse and actually discuss it. Some also want Ricken > Donnel, so there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Here's an argument against Donnel that should be obvious to anyone: His start is so awful that even wit a beastly support, he's still awful. He is actually statistically groomed to need a support just to not get one rounded/shotted, much less actually put up a real fight. This continues until he class changes, to which has the issue of other units that are also capable of using it. Donnel isn't good until about 10 levels into his class change. This takes a good while, and is a good amount of time where he's sucking, or just being meh. Ricken...At least has uses. Argument over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Ricken will never be as good of a dad as Donny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Ricken will never be as good of a dad as Donny I doubt his wife enjoys that shitty +Skill Luck support he gives. I could at least argue Ricken being in Mariabelle's pocket allows for extra range on Physic, and more importantly for Rescue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercuryHg34 Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I agree that Ricken can pass Donnel, but he won't get any higher. And about Panne as a Wyvern Rider... I use her and I also use Nowi as a Wyvern Rider. I reclassed them at about the same time from lv. 30 each, and while Panne's caps are a bit better than Nowi's I found that Nowi is particularly useful vs. Mages since her res is notably better than Panne's in my game. Nowi's proven to be more durable than Panne for me, actually. So what I'm wondering is if I happen to have a special case or if there's really something to discuss pertaining to Nowi's placement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Getting her going, is the hard part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercuryHg34 Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I don't really see how when she has plenty of options for supports and the fact that she never dies. It took me no time at all to get her caught up to Panne, especially when she joins in ch.8 and Panne comes only a few chapters before that. Obviously Nowi is not going to soar up to meet Panne or even land in A tier, but I think she should be much higher considering her join time. I think she could stand to be C tier near Kellam and Gaius at the minimum and in B tier near Tiki and Libra at the max. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Why would you ruin Nowi by reclassing her out of Manakete? She has as much MV as a tier 2 foot unit, counters everything, levels up quickly.... fix her SPD and she's good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercuryHg34 Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Because as long as you support her (why would you leave anyone by themselves in this game anyway) she has enough speed to get by while now having awesome mobility and even better offensive options in killer/brave weaponry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 How much better than "ORKOs everything at 1-2 range" do you need her offense to be, exactly? Because she does that with just a Dragonstone at a certain point in her career, you know. The only sticking point is her SPD, which is a mission for Gregor a Pair Up partner and maybe a booster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademaster! Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Getting her going, is the hard part. She gains over 40 exp per kill in her joining chapter, and is likely to keep getting 40+exp per kill for the next chapter and maybe chapter after that. With Gregor, she has a little over 20% chance of ORKOing all the dark mages and Myrmidon's (occasionally fighters too) in her joining chapter, the former of which 3HKO her. She has an auto C support with Gregor, gets doubled by nothing on Chapter 9 when paired up with him, and again OHKO's all the mages/darkmages and archers in the map with Gregor support while already being pretty tanky, especially if she was given the seraph rob. The only difficult thing about training Nowi is her low HP and speed, the former of which is fixed with a seraph rob and the latter is resolved with a fast Gregor support and the ability to buy speed tonics after completing her joining chapter. Out of all the units in the game you have to baby to get going, she's certainly one of the easier ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 She gains over 40 exp per kill in her joining chapter, and is likely to keep getting 40+exp per kill for the next chapter and maybe chapter after that. With Gregor, she has a little over 20% chance of ORKOing all the dark mages and Myrmidon's (occasionally fighters too) in her joining chapter, the former of which 3HKO her. She has an auto C support with Gregor, gets doubled by nothing on Chapter 9 when paired up with him, and again OHKO's all the mages/darkmages and archers in the map with Gregor support while already being pretty tanky, especially if she was given the seraph rob. The only difficult thing about training Nowi is her low HP and speed, the former of which is fixed with a seraph rob and the latter is resolved with a fast Gregor support and the ability to buy speed tonics after completing her joining chapter. Out of all the units in the game you have to baby to get going, she's certainly one of the easier ones. She doesn't have an auto support. No one does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 For all intents and purposes it's an auto-support. Gregor and Nowi start next to each other in the middle of the map, need to Pair to be effective, and if they see even a little bit of combat you'll have a C support by the end of the chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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